USS Constitution by Modeler12 - Cross-Section - Bow Area

[trippwj]

The fill room you note was the most protected and restricted part of the vessel - this would be where the powder bags were actually filled.  The powder bags would be passed via a small slit in a tarp to a receiver outside of the room. 

[lambsbk]

The riding bitts and the galley (camboose) position are interesting in the second drawing. It is not between them at all.

[DanO]

So what does an old guy do on a Sunday afternoon when it is too hot to work in the garage on his Conny which is screaming for attention.

 

Well he takes the time to read 12+ pages concerning a USS Constitution vros section which is being built with a great deal of research and expertise by the name of Jay.

 

Jay,

 

I have been totaly taken away by your work and research and, and along with many others who have already stated so, thank you so much for sharing this build and will now begin checking in everyday.

 

 

Bw well

Dan

[Modeler12]

Thank you Dan for those nice comments. But to be honest with you, my 'research' consists simply of reading a book and asking questions on this forum. I get answers from George, Tom, Henry, Wayne, Mark and several others that I inhale, digest and regurgitate until my problems seem resolved.

In the case of the Marquardt error of placing the riding bits and oven on the gun deck in the wrong position, it was simply putting two and two together and coming up with five. All it means is that I lost about two weeks of work having to repair the three decks in question. Cutting away part of the orlop deck was easy, but not without some comprehensions. But as they say in southern France: se la guerre (or something like that).

 

Frankly, on hind sight, I am now finding that the new version will be more challenging and interesting. The extended hatches give me a chance to show the stairs going down from the top deck to the orlop deck. It also means that those stairs have to line up near perfect when I do the final assembly of the decks between the frames. Lots of work ahead. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

This might be a good time to review my intent and where I am.
 

From the outset I intended to do this cross section because it is an area where ‘things happen aboard a ship’.  People eat, sleep and work.
+
So, the idea was to include all of that if possible (some guns, a mast, etc were just gravy), but hammocks and the oven were to be there. That is why I selected the section that is now known (by me) as being between beams 11 and 4. As it turned out, this area also includes the old gun powder room and its cartridge filling station (which I still believe is below this part of the orlop deck).
 

However, I also wanted to include the structural parts of the ship: show the beams, carlings and joists. So, the port side was to show the whole and the starboard side the details.

I started with the keel and some of the frames. Then it occurred to me that the various decks would have to go between those frames. And I asked the question, ‘ Would it not be a lot more interesting, if not better, to make those decks with the details they deserve rather than trying to put all of that inside the frames afterwards?’
 

I started following the plans shown in Marquardt’ marvelous book ‘Anatomy of the Ship’, making each deck with beams, an oven and other details. I figured that even if all of this were not to come about, I would be having fun doing exactly that. For example, the hammocks for the berth deck have been made and will be installed as a final thing there; the LED for the oven is in place (but they will also be installed at two other places on the berth and gun decks), and, of course, the powder room, below the forward orlop deck is still in question. But the answers to that will come, I hope. At least Henry clarified that there are two scuttles where those light were being lowered below the orlop deck (forward sail room floor).

The hick-up with the oven and stove-pipe location has created a bit of a delay and will be resolved. But the introduction of comments from Henry and Tom (about the Google link) has been very informative.

To do:

·         The hatches on the gun and berth decks will be redone to show the new location and sizes.  Additional gratings and stairs will have to be made. That means that there should be stairs going all the way from the spar deck down to the orlop deck.

·         Cut the oven platform shorter (with oven and lights in place) to fit where it belongs. I already have cut new holes in the decks for the riding bits. But all of this needs to be refitted and aligned with the smoke stack.

·         The orlop deck on my model will be configured like she is now. Part of this has been cut.

·         Generate some new drawing about all of the above.

I will keep me posted (as well as you).

Edited July 20, 2015 by Modeler12

[GLakie]

Sounds like a well researched and thought out plan Jay! Look forward to seeing things as they progress.

[DanO]

Jay,

 

I am really digging back into the memory banks on this one but at one time within the past ten years there was a person who set out to build a complete model based totally on Marquardt's Book. There were many who basically told him not to do it for according to them it was a work of fiction.

 

I had followed the build for quite some time and the builder plugged  along and ended up with a great finished product. I do remember that on more than one ocassion he had to rescale for the book was not consistent in that area.

 

One of these days the dust will clear of that part of my memory and I will share. It may have been here prior to the crash.

 

Be well

Dan

 

PS: I found  the gentleman on the model ship builder forum, caddman6425. Just a side issues and apologize for going off onto a tangent.

 

      Also http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1405.0 a model which is at the USS Constitution Museum

Edited July 20, 2015 by DanO

[Modeler12]

Dan, I remember this also and followed his work for some time. His finished series of cross sections is a piece of real dedicated art and is now in the USS Constitution museum on display. I also recall that many critics as well as Gene had several issues with details in the book.

Nevertheless, I still think that a lot of pictures of the rigging and small items are interesting and useful. I have decided, though, that for the rest of my build, I am going to rely more on what I see on the ship as it is now or after its current refurbishing. There are some exceptions such as the large riding bits (instead of the steel drums now in place to handle chains for the anchors). The photos published by Googe are terrific and you can pan and see more details than I ever thought possible.

Here is an example and I would like to ask Henry for some help  

 

Against the post on the berth deck just aft of the hatch and stairs is a pump. My guess is that it was used to pump fresh water from barrels in the hold and deliver that to the gun deck area for the oven etc. When I look up and follow the white hose it seems to go through the gun decking. However, a view up there does not show any trace of the white hose.

I don't think it was a fire hose because you can also see a faucet on the berth deck, probably used by the men while berthing. The black rod is the pump handle.

 

Going down into the hold and looking up I can see two holes where the plumbing could have come through, but all of that was removed.

The reason I am interested is that the pump would be right in the front of my model and would make an interesting subject in itself. I could even place a water barrel down below.

[usedtosail]

Jay, I am both glad to have been of help but also I feel bad for stirring up so much trouble for you. Crack on though using the current ship as reference and you will have a great cross section. Your redos will be well worth it. BTW, I just passed along the link that I received from someone else on this site. That is one of the things that is great about MSW, knowledge like this just keeps getting passed along as needed.

[Modeler12]

Jay, I am both glad to have been of help but also I feel bad for stirring up so much trouble for you. Crack on though using the current ship as reference and you will have a great cross section. Your redos will be well worth it. BTW, I just passed along the link that I received from someone else on this site. That is one of the things that is great about MSW, knowledge like this just keeps getting passed along as needed.

Tom, don't feel bad. I am very glad you gave me the start of something good. I mind having to repair past work, but then again I would feel really bad if I had continued on the wrong course.

 

BTW the Google map sources are great but hard to find on the regular map site. When you enter USS C in the search box it brings up the harbor where the ship is (Boston). You then zoom in on the spot and use the little man to go to one of the orange dots. That means that the pictures are taken inside. You can do the same with the museum. Rather than the van that drives around, these pictures were made using a tripod with probably a remote trigger (there are no people in any of the shots).

I will be using this resource more than the book now, even if it means that the past may have been different.

 

One more add on to my last post above about the pump. I mentioned that the white hose goes up to the gun deck and that there is no hose coming through the floor up there. That is not exactly true because there is a white 'column' up there that is really a hollow box. The hose could have come up inside but then I lost track. It also appears that inside that white box are sprinkler pipes.

[shiloh]

Could all of that been used as a vent for the pump and provide for a head, so air is not spitting out at the hose bib. Might also been used to prime the pump? Real frustration to find the priming water gone, when needing  drink.

jud

[Modeler12]

Could all of that been used as a vent for the pump and provide for a head, so air is not spitting out at the hose bib. Might also been used to prime the pump? Real frustration to find the priming water gone, when needing  drink.

jud

Good point, Jud. If water were to be pumped higher, such as near the oven on the deck above, they would have had a pump at that level rather than using this one and try to get pressure up to deliver water ten or more feet higher. So this one is just for drinking water on the berth deck???

[trippwj]

I suspect that the pump in question is a newer addition (late 19th or 20th century).  I need to check again into the description of the "fire engines" for the Constitution (believe it was in a letter from Fox but not sure).

[popeye2sea]

I agree with Wayne.  Just looking at the style of the pump suggests late 19th century.  My guess would be fire prevention equipment.

[lambsbk]

I am not sure where the reference is located but jbshan (on this forum) had 4 fire pumps with 1 each on the fore and main channels port and starboard. So these firefighting type pumps were external to ships bulwarks.

[Modeler12]

Indeed this pump does not look like it was much older than 100 years or so and surely was not original equipment. If this pump was used for fire fighting, it must have been a 'bucket brigade'. The faucet on the side of the pump does not look like it was to be attached to a hose. And like I indicated before, the inlet, or bottom of the pump, came from the hold, not the outside. I don't think salt water was used here.

There are pumps towards mid-ship that were much bigger, and if I am not mistaken, those used sea water.

 

I recall reading somewhere that a pump to 'hoist' water from the hold was a later addition. It was a lot easier than bringing barrels of water up to the gun deck (or where ever). I would not be surprised if a similar pump was aft for the captain and officers use.

 

Correction about the pumps mid-ship. Those are the bilge pumps.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Modeler12

[shiloh]

Don't believe that type of pump was used to build pressure to fight fire, maybe used to fill a bucket. It would take 3 or more of those pumps ganged with very well kept seals and valves to build pressure and hold in a pressure tank to do that. It does not look like original equipment. If being used to pump from a cask of water, the cask  would need to be vented or open. Years ago my brother and I were charged with filling the shower for the harvest crew. That was where I now live, but not then. The old homestead house was here but no pressurized water. Water flowed from an artisan spring, down a ditch to a horse trough, drinking water was caught at the spring and never reached the ditch. The old hand pump was mounted on the side of the trough and we used it to fill buckets that we carried up a ladder to a 55 gallon drum. Done in the early morning so the sun would heat the shower water, a valve and shower head, wooden deck and curtains completed the water works.

jud

[Modeler12]

I agree with you Jud. I also spent some time on an old farm where the only source of fresh water were two hand pumps. They were about two times the diameter of the one we are talking about and provided water into a bucket (in spurts). Each up and down stroke yielded less than a gallon of water. The pressure was nill.

[DanO]

Jay,

 

Attache is a photo of the pump from a different angle. I took this in 2010. Also have been doing some research from the info I have to see when it first showed up but at this point to no avail.

 

Dan

[Modeler12]

That's the one, Dan. You can see the hose going up but it is not clear where that ends.

Thanks.

[popeye2sea]

Next time I get aboard I will have to check that pump out.  You know, for all the times I have been down there and seen that pump, I never paid attention to the hose coming out of the top and where it might lead.  I am always learning new stuff about this ship.

[DanO]

Jay ,

 

I have done a little more reasearch and found the attached on a plan from 07/02/1931 'Drainage, Flooding, Fresh Water, and sanitary piping"

 

0930 Orlop

0929 Berth

0928 Gun

 

Hope this helps

Dan

[Modeler12]

Wowwww, Dan, that is interesting. I'll take a closer look at the plumbing, but it seems that my original thought was correct. It is a fresh water pump. Also I am not surprised that it is about 100 years old (or less). Electric lights and motors were probably not yet aboard at that time, hence the hand pump.

 

The 'lead pipes' were probably removed because of being made of lead, but the connections to the boiling pots on the stove are still visible. So, my guess is that the hand pump on the berth deck did supply fresh water from the hold to the oven. This is an interesting side line.

Can you tell from the first drawing you found if the plumbing on both sides had something to do with fire control or 'sanitation'? I don't think those had anything to do with fresh water. Just curious, what was your source?

Edited July 21, 2015 by Modeler12

[DanO]

Jay,

 

Some years ago I had aquired a CD from the Naval Attachement assigned to USS Constitution which is now available through their book store.

 

http://museumstore.navyhistory.org/CD-Constitution-Plans-p/618.htm

 

I found it to contain a wealth of information for a meager $15.00.

 

Dan

[JSGerson]

Dan - I have the CD from the Constitution Museum Store you describe but I can't find anything labeled: 'Drainage, Flooding, Fresh Water, and sanitary piping" or '0930 Orlop' or '0929 Berth' or '0928 Gun.' Are you sure it came off that CD and not something else? I plan sometime in the future to build my own Conny model once my Rattlesnake build is done. I'm gathering all my research material now so when I'm ready to build, I won't have that excuse not to start.

 

Jonathan

[lambsbk]

I have that too. It is mostly a collection of plans from the 1920's refit. These are the same plans that match the current configuration as well. 

 

Dave

[DanO]

Jay,

 

The CD I have was broken down into chapters or rather sections which I printed and had spiral bound individually for i can get easily confused with a huge stack of paper.

 

The area where I found the above was in the Drain section No 24402, Berth and Gun decks, and No 24403, Orlop and Hold, are the reference #s

 

As for the reference #s on the photos those are mine as I took pictures of the pages and went with what the camera come up with, I should have renamed.

 

When I find the CD I will double check where it is there.

 

Dan

[trippwj]

Jay,

 

The CD I have was broken down into chapters or rather sections which I printed and had spiral bound individually for i can get easily confused with a huge stack of paper.

 

The area where I found the above was in the Drain section No 24402, Berth and Gun decks, and No 24403, Orlop and Hold, are the reference #s

 

As for the reference #s on the photos those are mine as I took pictures of the pages and went with what the camera come up with, I should have renamed.

 

When I find the CD I will double check where it is there.

 

Dan

 

Regrettably, those are not included on the 2012 CD version

[DanO]

When I open my CD it has 13 sections one of which is drain and that is where I found the info. I do not remember when I got it but do know that it was prior to 2012 and had to order directly from the Naval Detachment by sending them a letter of request and a check.

 

I had heard that they stoped offering this service and was under the impression that the one in the store was exactly the same and appears that I guessed wrong.

 

They all had a .mil and I had to download that reader in order to print out.

 

Sorry if this turned out to be a tease but will help out wherever I can.

 

Dan

[JSGerson]

Dan - Nope, I don't have Nos., 24402 or 24403 on the CD. I even have a bunch of plans I downloaded from the US Navy (but can't seem to find their internet source now) and there not listed there either. If I find the Navy source again I'll let everyone know. If you can find your source who knows what else is there?

 

Jonathan