British 'Termagant', 1780, ship-rigged Sloop - Info?

[malachy]

Hi folks!

 

 

While searching the NMM-website for interesting projects, I stumbled upon this beauty (and instantly made a price inquiry for a digital copy):

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82993.html

 

Perfect fusion of french (hull shape) and british shipbuilding, in my opinion. The lines, like the HMS Ceres of 1777, seem to be based on the Dunkirk-built privateer 'Pomona' (1761).

The NMM does not explicitly make this connection, but if you look at the body plan and compare the dimensions of the three ships (all have a length-to-breadth ratio of ~ 3.95), it should be pretty obvoius.

 

Quite interesting that the Admirality used such 'old' designs for new sloops around the start of the 1780s.

Myrmidon (1781), an almost 100% copy of the 'Panthère' captured in 1745,  and the subsequent 'Echo' class (yes, the cross section Echo class ) would be another example for this.

 

Anyway, here´s what I found so far:

 

Built in Bristol (J.M. Hillhouse)

Acquired     1780

Launched   1780

 

Dimensions

 

Length of Gundeck    110' 5"

Length of Keel             90' 6 ⅝"

Breadth                       28' 0"

Depth in Hold               8' 7"

 

Armarment

 

Upper Gun Deck  22 British 6-Pounder

Quarterdeck          4 British 12-Pound Carronade

 

After 1782

Upper Gun Deck 18 British 6-Pounder

 

Crew

 

1780    160

1782    125

 

 

 

Painting by Robert Dodd

 

 

 

Log books of 1782 and 1783 available at the National Archives

 

 

Would love to find more about her, especially sailing reports (for Termagant or Ceres/Pomona).

 

 

Regards,

Stephan

Edited July 15, 2015 by Bava

[uss frolick]

She was unusually graceful for an English ship. Very French looking, and she has a complete set of carvings. Pretty. Strange that they would only arm her with six-pounders, as ships of her size and her number of main deck ports normally carried nines. Perhaps she was too lightly framed? In his index for his Naval History of Great Britain, contemporary Historian William James notes that there was a Termagant (20) still in fleet service during the Napoleonic Wars.

[malachy]

Interesting info, frolick, as far as I know she was placed in ordinary in 1790 and finally sold in 1795 after a rather uneventful career.

There was a Termagant in active service at the turn of the 18th century, but it is listed as a 18-gun post ship.

 

Strange that they would only arm her with six-pounders, as ships of her size and her number of main deck ports normally carried nines. Perhaps she was too lightly framed?

 

 

Could very well be. And at the start of the 1780s, the RN started arming sloops with 12-pounder carronades (Echo class). Maybe they thought a gun deck of 20 6-pounders plus 2 or 4 12-pounder carronades would be more efficient than just a gun deck of 18 or 20 9-pounders?

[druxey]

Now, Termagant is an interesting subject. I came across her sheer and profile plan many years ago and noticed that it shows a very early example of 'plug stock' rudder. Notice how the stern post is sloped away at the upper end so that the upper part of the rudder can turn in a small, circular helm port. This style of rudder was generally adopted by the Navy only some 25 to 30 years later.

 

This alone will make her an extremely interesting model.

Edited July 16, 2015 by druxey

[Chapman]

Hi Bava,

 

Hilhouse built the Termagent speculatively on the new Hilhouse shipyard at Redclift,  after he built the Privateer Ship Mars ( 1779 cooper sheathed) Both were based on the plans of Ceres 1777.
Hilhouse knew the good sailing qualities of the Ceres from his former work at the Royal Shipyards in Chatham and Woolwich.

From Mars, there is a print of Pocock and a shipyard model of her held by the Bristol Museums, Galeries & Archives

Edited July 16, 2015 by Chapman

[Chapman]

Because of the arming of Mars . She led 30 guns , including 22 12 - pounder and had a 150 men crew .
The Mars was lost on the first curise , probably in a violant storm off the Azores.   She had captured until then 2 ships, including a Spanish privateer.

[malachy]

That´s some great info, Chapman. Dankeschön!

 

I´ve been able to track down the print you mentioned (The Mars Private Ship of War/John Chilcot Commander).

It´s available for download at the Yale Center of British Art site and in a rediciously high resolution, 3000x3000 px, file size is 23 mb.

A fine looking ship, the Mars. Do you know her dimensions? With 22 12-pounders she must have been in the 600 to 700 tons burthen range.

 

Now, Termagant is an interesting subject. I came across her sheer and profile plan many years ago and noticed that it shows a very early example of 'plug stock' rudder. Notice how the stern post is sloped away at the upper end so that the upper part of the rudder can turn in a small, circular helm port. This style of rudder was generally adopted by the Navy only some 25 to 30 years later.

 

This alone will make her an extremely interesting model.

 

 

Again, very interesting info. Thanks, Druxey!!

I noticed the slope, but didn´t know why they did it this way. This ship was a sailing anachronism, a 20 year old french design with advanced rudder mechanism

 

By the way, Emma from the NMM sent me an email regarding my price inquiry for a digital copy.

It´s 50 pounds per item for personal research O.o

The NMM got expensive real fast...

[druxey]

Yes, the plan pricing is not cheap. However, i always console myself with the thought that the model will take, say, five years to build. So, the cost per plan per year is only 10 pounds!

[michaelpsutton2]

What do you get for 50 pounds? What's the resolution and file size.? Is that 50 pounds per image or per vessel? How long does it take?

[malachy]

Michael, you get one 'item' for the price, in my case the body plan with sheer lines. There are two other plans (another body/sheer and the decks), so the whole set would probably cost 150 pounds. As robin and druxey already said, considering the time you´re going to spend with it, it´s a rather small investment. That´s what I´m telling myself (and the lady admiral), at least

 

And I don´t know about the file size, but it should be huge, as the resolution is in the 10000 pixel range. You get an order form after the request and once the payment is done, you´ll receive an email with the download link. Shouldn´t take more than a couple of days.

[allanyed]

Michael,

 

I do not know the image size per se, but I can tell you once down loaded (and do it as soon as you receive it, there is a time limit of a few weeks I believe) and inserted into  Turbocad or other drawing program, you can enlarge it to your heart's content and it as clear as can be.  As an example you can enlarge it enough to measure the width of a pencil line.  Faint notes, erasures and more,  can often be found that you may not be able to make out on a paper copy.   Well worth the price IMHO.

 

Allan

[malachy]

So, bit the bullet and ordered the plans. Can´t wait to get the link, feels a bit like Christmas

 

But I can´t help to ask myself why the NMM can´t be a bit more it´s swedish counterpart. They not only offer Chapman´s ANM for free, but a lot of his personal collection also is available for download in high resolution pictures. This includes a very nice plan of the Victory of 1737, the drawings he made during his stay in Brest, draughts of the Wasa and the Bellona class and much, much more.

 

And this is just the Chapman collection. They also have countless draughts of 19th and 20th century ships, pretty much all of them either without copyright restrictions or under Creative Commons 3.0.

 

Sigh...

[amateur]

Can you give the link to this chapman personal collection (I have the ANM-link, but the other would be very nice also...)

 

Jan

[malachy]

Sure

 

http://digitaltmuseum.se/search?page=6&query=Ritning,%20Chapman

 

I only searched for Ritning (drawing) and Chapman, you may get better results with a broader set of keywords/options (e.g. just ritning and a period setting of 1750 to 1800) as some drawings may not be tagged with 'Chapman'.

 

Best way to get a high resolution pic is to right-click on the download button and choose 'save target as...' and don´t forget to add the file extension.

If you click on the picture itself, you get a smaller version most of the time. For example, Chapman´s drawing of the stern/head of the Fleuron is 3000*1700 pixels when downloaded, the 'preview' picture in the slide show is only 1500*850.

 

 

The 'order image' gets you to an order form where you can obtain the full-sized image, either as a print or a digital copy.

The resolution of the scan can be seen in the Archive submenu of the museum main page (usually in the 10000 to 20000 pixel range).

A copy costs 20 Euros.