Soleil Royal by Hubac's Historian - Heller - An Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build

[CédricL]

Hello Marc,

 

I take a few minutes to look at your progress,

Nice work on the wales, and your work on the stairs is also well done !!

 

My work is currently suspended due to lack of free space and time, hope to restart at the end of the month.

In between, I read Duhamel du Monceau and Blaise Ollivier treatises in order to lighten some obscure points of hull building.

 

Have a nice day...

and happy birthday to you.

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, Cedric for your kind words and birthday wishes.  44, strong!  And thank you, as always, to everyone who stops in, for following along with your likes and comments.  It is tremendously motivating!

 

Cedric, I can appreciate how you are feeling about La Reyne, right now.  We are engaged in a marathon, as opposed to a sprint.  I sincerely hope you won't lose your motivation to push through and keep going.

 

Personally, I derive so much inspiration from what you are doing.  The sheer ambition of your project, combined with the excellent early returns on your work really keep me chugging along - even if all I have to show for an evening is a part roughly shaped, or a few more lines on the computer screen.

 

Keep going, my friend!  What you are attempting will make my build seem like child's play but we will all be the richer for following along.😉

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[Hubac's Historian]

Skids installed!

 

 

Next up - I may return to the wales, which still need to be bolted along their length.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[yancovitch]

super....so much attention to detail.......i read once, on the heller victory, that the person sanded down some of the grain, which he thought was too coarse.....but maybe on this model it's not necessary?...just curious.....i tried to do a waterline with this model many years ago, but wasn't happy with it, so i let it go:).......i'll have to keep an eye on this one, as there seems to be a lot of heart involved, not to mention research.....thanks...

Edited August 18, 2017 by yancovitch

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, Yankovich!

 

I also read that Victory build log.  I'm not sure I will go that route, with sanding down the grain lines, which are pronounced;  only, I suppose, if they are too patchy next to areas where I used a coarse abrasive pad to level filler.  And, yes, there is certainly a lot of passion for the subject involved, here.  I'm not sure whether the key modifications I have in mind are going to work - the ones where I broaden the hull by 1/2", and extend the stern by 3/8".  If they don't, then I suppose this will be a glorious failure and I'll have to go All-In on a full scratch-build.  I remain cautiously optimistic, though, that I can pull it off and present a reasonable facsimile of what I think this ship once was.

[EJ_L]

Marc your skids are a nice addition to the ship. they also gave me some guidance for how my own steps were going to look. My plan drawings show switch back style ladder going up under a gun port then shifting over to the next empty space between ports. This has always bothered me in both design and function on such a large ship that would be entertaining dignitaries. The skids provide that handhold that is otherwise lacking to assist those VIPs who may not be used to scaling a ship this large.

 

By the way, what scale is this model in? I love the look of the bolts on the wales and have been debating if I want to tackle them myself when the planking is done. Curious what scale you are working in to judge if my own 1:77 would look good with them or if they would be oversized like what happens with most tree nails.

[Hubac's Historian]

Hey EJ, thank you for the compliment!

 

I understand what you are saying about the switch-back companionway.  Interestingly, this seems to be a feature most often seen on English ships, even large first-rates, and often terminating in a middle-deck entry port.

 

From what I've been able to ascertain about French practice, the companionway ladder was most often a straight-forward, straight up and down affair, much like their simple, un-adorned ladders from one deck level to the next.

 

The scale of the Heller kit is 1:100, which makes the math a little easier for the sake of scaling the scratch-built elements of the build.  So far, though, I have mostly gone by my eye, for scale.  Just as you are debating whether to through-bolt the wales, I was debating whether to continuously bolt the wales between scarfs.  Often,  modelers seem to use some form of domed pin to represent the bolts.  My thinking is that, unless the scale is sufficiently large, this rarely looks convincing.  I had an idea, though, that I could cut very small slivers of the same styrene rod that I used for the through-bolting, and then flash them with a wand lighter, over a piece of tin-foil.  When I tried this, the result was perfectly domed little "bolt-heads" that had perfectly flat glue surfaces and that would look good in-scale, on the model.

 

Unfortunately, unlike Dan Pariser's excellent advice for simplifying and speeding up the through-bolting process, there will be no short-cuts for this particular detailing;  toothpick, dot of glue, place domed bolt head in place with the tip of a knife.  Helle-tedious, but the addition to the model will contribute greatly to the overall impression.

 

I think, for your build EJ, the Arsenal modeling sites are an invaluable resource for the craft work that produces convincing results, no matter what the scale may be.  In particular, there are the models of Michel Saunier whom you are familiar with, and Nek0 (also name Marc) whom you may be less familiar with.  Both are friends and have collaborated to create two differing interpretations of the ship that are applied to the same essential architecture.  In my opinion, these two are the best combined resources for contemporary research on SR.  They are also the two best and most ambitious models of the ship that I have yet to find.  Although, there is one really good model made by a Danish man that displays excellent craft and pleasing proportions.

 

 I'm excited for your model, EJ, because the fun work of the stern is not that far off in the future for you!

[yancovitch]

ha....i wanted to modify the hull too...was even thinking of gluing on thin walnut planks, changing the shape of the hull at the same time,....especially the bow area, and of course wood decks, and open galleries on the side......but like i said, i gave up .....but....i hope you hang on to your vision, cause your sub sub conscious knows better how it should be, haha...(dig into the akashic records),,.... nothing is wasted in giving it all you got ......so many beautiful decorations etc on this ship makes it worth while me thinks......hmmmmm....interesting how much attention is placed on the detailed sculptures etc on plastic ships, and how crude most of the sculptures on many if not most wooden models in comparison.........

[kpnuts]

Blimey this is some attention to detail you must have the patience of a saint.

[Hubac's Historian]

Oh, I'm a sinner all the way, kpnuts, but then the devil's in the details, as they say.  For me, a lot of the fun is in the layering-on of detail (that the stock kit omits), until quite a different picture of the ship begins to emerge.  I promise that this will not very much resemble the Heller kit, when I am through.  The question is whether I will have the stamina to see it through.  I think so.  I'm enjoying the process, so far.

 

Yankovich, I'm curious as to what your plan was - back when you were building this kit - to modify the shape of the bow.  Were you referring to the stem and cutwater only, or were you also considering a fundamental change to the shape of the hull?  Do any pictures survive of this model?

Edited August 18, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[EJ_L]

Thanks for that Marc. If you can do that at 1:100 then I should be fine. Now it's just a matter of deciding on method and materials. I see a trip to the hobby store in the near future!

 

I know I've told several people on here about this but I don't remember if you are one of them. If you have a smart phone Woodland Scenics has a great app for figuring scale. Its Model Scaler and I have used it a lot for converting back and forth between scales. Since it is made by a supplier for model train scenery the programmed scales are set for the common railroading scales however it has an option to enter in any custom scale you want. You can then go back and forth between that scale and 1:1 in any numerical units you want. For example in 1:77 scale that I am currently using, 100 actual Feet is equal to 395.844mm in scale or 50mm in on my model is the equivalent of 3.85m in actual size. Another example would be these through bolts. Lets say the heads are 4 inches diameter, for my scale my bolt head would only be 1.3mm. Some days you have to love technology, others, well not so much.

[Hubac's Historian]

No, EJ, I was not previously aware of that app, but it sounds perfect for the scaling of the masts and spars, among many other things.

[yancovitch]

 

 

oh....just widening the hull around the lower gun deck near the bow...... if i remember, the heller kit is probably vertical........was too much work for me though haha...........but today? ..hmmmmmmm...........when i finish my wooden ships and am too old to deal with the mess and glues etc, i may opt for the heller royal.....who knows.....which is why i'm interested in your progress.....oh i just remembered, i was wanting to widen the stern galleries and hull too.....quite an endeavor

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by yancovitch

[CédricL]

Hello Marc,

 

Great work on the skids.

About the "grain" of the wood, it's clearly overscaled, why I sanded all the hull of my kit. But it's a ......work to do and I would not recommend it to anyone (the time I spent was terrific).

Just a question, are you in the way to put another gunport near the prow ?

It seems on your pictures that you didn't do that.

And about your probable failure with those 1/2, 3/8 of inches, you will only miss what you did not dare to try. So go on !

 

Regards from Brussels.

 

Cédric

[Hubac's Historian]

Hey Cedric! Thank you for the kind compliments!

 

Yes, while I haven't placed the so-called "hunting ports" yet, I will represent them as closed ports that are scribed in to the plastic.  I'll make up hinges and ring bolts for them.  The thing about the Heller kit that I have always found perplexing is why they make separate inserts for the hawsers.  I have yet to glue these in place, but when I do, I can then scribe in the hunting ports.

 

And you're absolutely right, vis-a-vis nothing ventured nothing gained!  Making my castings and extensions are what this project is all about, so that is the freedom of plastic - if it doesn't work exactly as planned, I can heat and manipulate the extension pieces to fit.  I will find a way, and am really excited to experiment with making castings.

 

Will you be posting drawings sometime soon, Cedric?

Edited August 19, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[yancovitch]

oh cedric.....just had a thought...what about spraying a few coats of primer on the hull to fill in the grain, depending on how much grain you want to fill, then a fine sanding ?....do you think that could work, or would that be just as tedious etc, and maybe not as effective for whatever reason?.....just curious.....

  haha...from now on, i'll just watch, and see how this exciting and informative build evolves......cheers.....

Edited August 19, 2017 by yancovitch

[CédricL]

12 hours ago, yancovitch said:

oh cedric.....just had a thought...what about spraying a few coats of primer on the hull to fill in the grain, depending on how much grain you want to fill, then a fine sanding ?....do you think that could work, or would that be just as tedious etc, and maybe not as effective for whatever reason?.....just curious.....

  haha...from now on, i'll just watch, and see how this exciting and informative build evolves......cheers.....

Good morning yancovitch,

 

It could probably help, but in my case, as I have to redraw the whole wales, gunports and decks, it was more easy to sand all off.

All in all, for someone working on the Heller's base, I think that a small sanding would give a correct rendition. But that's Something that is purely personnal.

Marc,

You're right about the hawser parts, never understood why, except maybe for some technical "demoulding" reasons (???).

It's a good idea to scribe the missing gunports, more easy than creating new ones, I can confirm !

Note that you will have to do the job for the 4 rear ones, overscaled, and who also have to be square.

 

I don't know what happen in NY, but here we prepare ourself for a sunny Sunday, something that invites me to lazyness in the garden in place of working on my model or autocad drawings.

I'm still in trouble with the sheer of the decks, the ones made by Heller are far too pronouced by the prow and I'm now sure that I'll have to scrap them. But...no pain, no gain

 

Have a nice day.

[Hubac's Historian]

I've been thinking about this problem you are tackling, Cedric, concerning the forward sheer of the decks.  If your intention is to lower the forward sheer so that the wales forward of midships run more nearly parallel with the waterline - then all the forward wales, right up to the main deck level will need to be similarly adjusted.  The trouble comes with the juncture of the lower hull with the upper bulwarks; the forward, upper bulwark will no longer fit, if you change the shape of the top, main deck wale.  So, this must necessitate building new upper bulwarks from scratch, right?

 

Or, you could adjust the run of the lower and middle deck guns/wales and leave the top sheer of the main deck wales, as it is, but I'm not sure how that would look, relative to the mIn deck guns.

[CédricL]

Marc,

 

The "sheer" (or camber ?) of the wales don't follow the one of the deck (in other case, it could be impossible for the wales to cut the aft gunports).

As I have a good drawing of the ship (thanks Van de Velde) I will follow the general rules of the time, knowing that the first wale comes close to the underside of the first gunport. Then all others wales will be placed parallel following the description of l'Anonyme du Havre de Grâce.

About the decks, it's far more difficult to find correct informations, so I will have to decide by myself with Van de Velde forward seeing of the ship, as the underside of gunports is always fixed at a certain distance of the deck.

 

You're right to say that it will means a serious work on the upper bulwarks, but as those were différents from Le SR, I knew that I will have to cut, scrap and sand...something who, I must admit, becomes a common rule in this project.

Hope to let see some progress before the end of the month or begin september.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, you certainly have your work cut out for you, Cedric, but your plan seems a good one to me.

 

I realised, after the fact, that I probably should have asked you this question on your build-log for La Reyne, as people following your build would benefit from hearing your answer.  I will be more sensitive to that, in the future😉

Edited August 20, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[Hubac's Historian]

These first two pics feature the scuppers.  The lower tier of five were made from bevelled slivers of .125 square styrene rod;  drilled, mounted and shaped in place.  The upper tier was made from .100 square rod and similarly shaped.  Both tiers extend just past the wales, but not beyond the skids.  Ultimately, I'd like to attach the sort of backflow sleaves, or socks, that are apparent on the lower tier of so many VDV portraits, but I'm not sure what a suitable material may be for this;  tissue, silkspan?  I don't know.

The next three pics focus on the continuous bolting of the wales that I described in a previous post.  It took a little experimenting to determine how thin a sliver would flash nicely with a wand lighter, but eventually, I figured it out.

 

This first pic shows two alternate spacings on adjacent wales.  The lower wale has spacing that is too cramped, so I settled on the spacing of the upper wale.

This last pic, I think, shows the relatively low relief of these "bolts," which I hope will show convincingly under paint.  The through-bolts, at the wale scarfs, will stand proud by comparison, though.

 

Finally, despite many attempts to delete this last, redundant picture - for some reason, the site refuses to delete it.  So, here's another look at that...

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[reklein]

I think you have your scarf joints bolted wrong. They should be pinned top to bottom and therefore not visible. Google scarf joints for ships.

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi reklein.  I'm not sure what you mean.  Do you mean that the bolts, themselves, should run vertically, and parallel to the centerline of the ship - as opposed to horizontally, and parallel to the waterline?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Hubac'sHistorian

[shipmodel]

Hi Bill, Marc - 

 

I think you are talking apples and oranges.  Bill is right that when a structural member, like a rib, frame or beam, is fastened with a scarf joint to the next structural member the fasteners go across the joint and hold the scarf together.  But for the skin of the ship, the planks and wales, the fasteners go as Marc has shown them, around the joint so they hold the skin to the structural members beneath.

 

Different purpose, different direction.

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you for the clarification, Dan.

[Hubac's Historian]

One side of wales continuously bolted:

 

 

The spacing is not absolutely perfect and uniform, but it would not be so, in life.  I worked the wales in consecutive pairs, four bolt heads per glue application, so that there would be a general sense of uniformity about the thing as a whole.

[CédricL]

Damn !

 

That's a great job you did, Marc.

 

I suggest you not to wait too long to fix the hawser parts on the hull, they fit not

really good and you'll have to sand the joints carefully.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Cedric,

 

Thank you very much for the kind words, and thank you to everyone else for their likes and comments and reading along.  It is all very much appreciated.

 

I think that, after I bolt the other half, I will turn my attention to fitting the hawser pieces.  You are right, Cedric, that the initial fit is poor.  One thing I and so many others who have built this model before are guilty of, is leaving a step in the ship's sides where the planking meets this separate hawser insert.  This time around, I will take pains to cut a diminishing rebate into the top and bottom edges of the hawser piece, so that the aft edge meets flush with the ship planking.  That should minimize the necessity for filler to hide the joint.

 

I will wait until after I have made and installed the bow extension pieces, to fill in and re-locate the existing hawse-holes.  Because the extensions will push the hawse holes further away from the stem - which would look distracting and strange (and just plain wrong) - one or both will need to be re-drilled back to their correct position.

 

Until then, though, I have an army of tiny plastic slivers to flash and mount to the other side.  In recent weeks, I have been the beneficiary of unusual amounts of bachelor time, as my wife and kids spent the past two weeks, out on Long Island.  But we are all home now and the craziness of the school year is about to start up again, so progress will be necessarily slower.

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc - 

 

Very nice work on the bolts.  Looking forward to seeing how the hull halves will join up.

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Me too.  That'll be the real fun!