Soleil Royal by Hubac's Historian - Heller - An Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build

[EJ_L]

Looking at pictures of the Vasa and her lids, it appears that the lids were made up of two layers of multiple boards that lay perpendicular to each other. The outer layer was a thicker set of boards while the inner was a thin layer. This thin layer appears to act as connecting plates to hold the outer boards together. The large quantity of nails would be used to prevent and sliding or twisting of the lids due to water, heat, cold etc., to maintain the tight seal required of those lids. Any decorative figures would be an addition to this.

 

How those decorations are attached, I do not know. My guess is that there were probably some sort of nail, peg etc., that was used to secure the carving in place and then caulked and painted over to blend in with the carving itself. 

[Hubac's Historian]

My guess is that carvings were treenailed because they could be carved and blended into the sculpture

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you to everyone for your likes, comments and looking in.

 

So, it is a bit of a process, but it appears that the effort to insert a filler of .030 styrene sheet between moulded halves of the 36lb guns, of the lower battery, will be worth it.  The uptick in heft is definitely discernible.  Initially, the bore at the muzzle is a little oblong, but a little judicious reaming takes care of that:

 

The cascabel has been ground away to seat nicely in the 3/16” holes that I drilled into poplar stock for my dummy carriages.  This past week, I made 1” blocks from this stock that were painted black and drilled at the appropriate height for the lower and middle batteries.

 

For added strength, I will later add a steel (sewing) pin into the back of each barrel, in order to give the glue a little something extra to hold onto.  I will probably also shave away the trunnions, as they no longer are needed, and would only be distracting, if seen.  The idea behind dummy carriages was that I wanted to be able to easily install the guns toward the end of the build, and I was hoping to avoid the 5-piece carriage assemblies until the upper decks.

 

Well, that should keep me busy for a while!

[shipmodel]

Marc - 

 

Sweet solution to up-weighting the guns.  They will look good when blackened.

 

Dan

[Hubac's Historian]

As I often do, whenever I’m passing through, I stopped at The STRAND today.

 

I can’t overstate the joy I experienced, after I started leafing through this book:

 

No Index mentions of Soleil Royal, but a whole series for the Battle of Barfleur.  And, then I got to page 114:

 

WAIT!! WHAT’s THAT?!!  Is that the portrait I’ve been searching for the past year?

 

WHY, YES IT IS!!!!  Still grainy AF, but about twice the caption size as I first found in the Robinson annotated volume of VDV drawings.

 

Now - I will readily admit that this better picture still does not confirm my theories, but it does more strongly suggest that I am on the right path.

 

And at least now I know where this portrait resided in 1980:

 

The Parker Gallery.  Maybe, by some stroke of luck, it’s still there. If not, they may be able to point me in the right direction to where it is now.  If they can’t, or they aren’t permitted to say whose private collection it resides in, then perhaps, they still have quality archival photographs of the painting!

 

So, the trail is hot again!  I told you I’d find it out there, somewhere, TD!  I thought it would be the internet’s tentacles that would bring her to me, but for now, maybe it’s good old print carrying the day.

[Hubac's Historian]

Thanks, Dan.  They’ll look even better in ver-de-gris patina; all of SR’s guns were bronze.  And I’m cautiously optimistic that if I get the green wash right, you’ll even be able to see the tiny fleur-de-lis that are moulded onto the barrels.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

The gun barrels look fine, Marc!!! I still think you shoud make them working due to any problems with the IPMS -jury

If they didn't agree to your arguments 😖 it is always an U.R.R.

 

And about casting them I three rows of 12-, 24- and 36 pdr groups

 save some time - quality will be given by good resin. 

The dummy carriages do imitate a pulley,too? 

There is a good contrast between the darker red carriage and the natural wood blocks with the rounds of tan coloured rope. 

Daniels gun carriages of his VICTORY

@dafi

 

do still give me a heavy headache how to come to those results without dealing by rigging a pair of 1mm blocks under some of my neighbours hobby electron microscope... 

 

As in the Ancre books not really a plenty of colour gides are to be found  - does anybody know if the carriages wheels were completly painted or just oiled?

 

The tread of the wheels have to be in natural wood as the were "sanded" by rolling over the deck. (As not so easily to be seen on the picture above due to the difference between yellow carriage and wooden wheel running surface).

The wheels of HERMIONE have never/not often been in use?

 

In the coloured picture guide for the SAINT PHILIPPE marketing the tread may be used as to be seen eventually above - my eye sight is too bad for this picture.

 

Here they look pained red...

So I took some from mine and the tread is on this picture wooden - or this is wooden dust?

Due to this essay about weathering gun varriages wheels running surface/thread please do not tell me an "analogue nerd" - I'm told by my wife every 2nd day... 🙄 

 

On the very end - as we all love these

 

 

 

Bodriout (from Le RENOMMEÉ, 1744) and

 

Closer to your SOLEIL ROYAL the Lemineur drawings at Le SAINT PHILIPPE 1693

These beloved figues on the plan, you may like to add some Messieures as M.de Mesure Comte de Detailleé et Gabare

Here the royal French officiers dress of the XVIIIth century - perchance for 1689 too uniform?

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

53 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Thanks, Dan.  They’ll look even better in ver-de-gris patina; all of SR’s guns were bronze.  And I’m cautiously optimistic that if I get the green wash right, you’ll even be able to see the tiny fleur-de-lis that are moulded onto the barrels.

I think you have got any reason to be optimistic - I just read your lines stood up for you and leaved through the SAINT PHILIPPE monography and tracked down this

Meaningfull examples.

 

Of ordonance in bronce patina... I am thinking straight about some colours

 

the bronze or gold should be mixt to mixtur after you personal taste and meaning of bronce. 

 

 

Some deep can be ar hived and arranged with some

camouflage green ink by Citardel.

To wash the red carriage I do use 

Looking like a heavy Bordeaux wine making wounderful deepness to little assecoires on any red underground (as long as it is not a Ferrari red-orange).

 

The barrels may get a source of misunderstanding and bad interpretation .

Here an example of a 

CSA Napoleon bronze gun barrel (on some refurbished carriage) and other

bronze barrels to get some idea of the colour! Or did the mates ordre their seaman to polish the barrels as a wayof passing the time without scrubbing the deckdown to the beams...

 

Perhaps you have got some examples near to you - best may be to look for some bronze guns under the salty sea air conditions in some coast fortress monument to get some realistic prototypes to see.

 

H.t.h.!

[EJ_L]

Great book find, and what a stroke of luck on the picture! Hopefully it will lead you to a clearer image or even the actual painting itself.

 

Nice work on the cannons. Those do look sharp indeed.

[shipmodel]

Marc - 

 

Best of luck finding the painting in the Parker gallery.  I have my fingers crossed for you.

 

I was wondering, though, why you are choosing a verdigris color for your cannon.  The green is a function of the oxidation of the bronze - - -  rust!  I have a hard time thinking that the officers of a first-rate king's ship would allow the sailors to slack off so much that the guns would have time to rust.  If they are rusty outside, they are probably rusty inside, and that can seriously affect firing accuracy.   Cannon in museums are always green because no one is cleaning or using them.   I have always opted for the deep reddish gold of fresh polished bronze. 

 

Whatever choice you make, I am sure it will make the artistic statement that you want.

 

See you soon

 

Dan

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

5 hours ago, shipmodel said:

Marc - 

 

Best of luck finding the painting in the Parker gallery.  I have my fingers crossed for you.

 

I was wondering, though, why you are choosing a verdigris color for your cannon.  The green is a function of the oxidation of the bronze - - -  rust!  I have a hard time thinking that the officers of a first-rate king's ship would allow the sailors to slack off so much that the guns would have time to rust.  If they are rusty outside, they are probably rusty inside, and that can seriously affect firing accuracy.   Cannon in museums are always green because no one is cleaning or using them.   I have always opted for the deep reddish gold of fresh polished bronze. 

 

Whatever choice you make, I am sure it will make the artistic statement that you want.

 

See you soon

 

Dan

 

@shipmodel

Hello Dan,

 

the inside of the the barrel was protected twice - by some graft in the front and often additivly enclosed by sealing wax to keep wetness out.

 

And the inside ship opening to fire the gun was covered by tar and a lead tin (look above)

.

Your ideas about cleaning the guns are correct for the British RN but the French ships often saw actions (as my SAINT PHILIPPE) once in lifetime. So the mainly layed moored in the habour bassins and started to be rotten to be rebuild later on.

So if the gunbarrels on a war mission were cleaned and polished - I would say "Definitely!" But in the mooring time in habour it is very questionable. Depending on the captain, the number of  sailers he has got and if the ship is a "Primeure rang extraordinare" laying there as ROYAL LOUIS to impress foreign visitors.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, EJ, I am keeping my fingers crossed. I sent an initial enquiry to the Parker Gallery last night.  It turns out they are art dealers and not a museum, but someone there may still have a clue, if even 39 years later.

 

Thank you Heinrich for all of your excellent picture references; you are so good about including them in your posts, and I appreciate them.  I have been curious about the Citadel paints for a while, and the staff at the Warhammer shop, here in New York, seem particularly knowledgeable.  At some point, when I’m passing through there, I will stop in and ask them their thoughts on ver-de-gris paint effects.

 

As for the full rig, I will pull out all of the stops when I get to the fully visible guns.  The guns below deck are mostly concealed, so all of the extra effort to rig them and paint the interiors, etc, seems wasted.  I appreciate the quality and effort of Dafi’s build, but most of it, for all intents and purposes, will only exist in pictures, once all of the decks are in.  I prefer to spend time detailing what can be seen.

 

Heinrich, you raise many good points regarding the carriages and their wheels.  I think that Dafi’s display is probably the most likely and sensible.  If navies were to also paint the treads of the wheels, the deck would soon be streaked in red, or yellow, or whatever.  So, carriages would be painted, yes I think, but wheels not.

 

The issue as to whether the French would be diligently polishing their bronze, at all times, is a tricky one.  Heinrich, again, makes a sound argument for patination because these ships of the Premier Rang Extraordinaire were most often in-active.  And as they were moored along the Penfeld (or Rochfort, Toulon, etc) as SR was for the first 18 years of her existence, the French often neglected the basic maintenance required to keep the ships well aired and dry.  Consequently, SR was rotten well before her eventual re-build and involvement in any real action.

 

It seems unlikely, though, that SR had her guns actually mounted for very much of those 18 years, as the need to equip other active ships would be more pressing, and there must have been some recognition that the weight of those batteries would be detrimental to the ship, if she were just laid up in ordinary.  So, if the guns weren’t blazing from some other ship, they were probably being stored in the arsenal, and being left to the whims of the sea air.

 

My preference is for a light patina, primarily because I think it will make visible these beautifully moulded details, that I would be hard pressed to re-create, at this scale.  Also, though, bronze patination, or “rust” is a different animal than iron oxidation.

 

Rusty iron guns are dangerous and in-operable.  I don’t exactly know this to be a fact, but it seems unlikely that discoloration of bronze would negatively affect the operation of the guns.

 

Lastly, light ver-de-gris calls attention to the fact that SR's guns were bronze.  Much as I think it looks cool, I don’t think I’d go as green as Herbert did on the guns fir his Texel model.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hy Marc, there is a differe ce between rust and patina. The bronze guns patina closes the surface and ended the process of oxydation. The rusting of iron (without grey or cast iron as they deal like bronze) destroys the hole material from solid iron to pure rust. 

To avoid this the iron guns were brought max. to a cherry red temperature and painted with linseed oil to conserve them by a coat of waterroof surface. These is easily simulatet by painting the barrel in an acrylic colour matt black and then a number of layers of brown ink (Citardel) is added I have got some book supporters that were coserved in this way.

 

Here a front and

back side illuminated by day light

 

And by hallogen to show the deepness of the oil.

 

Hth.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added the promised pictures.

[amateur]

Does the book give a caption on the painting?

might be helpfull in tracing it...

 

Jan

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello, Jan!

 

There was no caption, but towards the back of the book, there was an acknowledgments page that referenced the Parker Gallery.

 

Now, in an amazing display of promptness, I had an email response from Mr. Archie Parker, this morning.  I sent him thumbs and everything else I knew about the portrait, which all came from this citation in the Robinson annotated collection of VDV works:

This Robinson citation seemed to reference Euston Hall as the, then (1980, I believe was the publication date for these Robinson volumes), location of the portrait.  However, the citation also references Parker Gallery in the late 60’s, and the subsequent sale and ensconcement at St. Malo.

 

Last year, I contacted Euston Hall, but the art director, there, had no idea, or records of the painting ever being in their collection

 

A little later, this afternoon, Mr. Parker wrote back to me to inform me that he had checked Parker Gallery’s records, but unfortunately, their sale records do not stretch back prior to the 1970’s, and they do not appear to have any archival photos of the portrait either.  Mr. Parker could not have been more gracious, and he promised to contact me, should the painting surface in the future; he “flagged” me in their system.

 

So, in the meantime, I am back to square one, only with a slightly less grainy image.  My next move will be to attempt to track down any art historians, in residence, at St. Malo.  This is a significant portrait, in it’s own right (regardless of my personal interest in it), so there is some likelihood that it may have been loaned from private collection, at some point, for public exhibition.  Maybe someone has some ideas about that, somewhere.

 

’Gonna keep digging.  Like the actual remains of SR, buried beneath a parking lot at Cherbourg, this painting must be hiding somewhere.

[Daniel Caramagno]

I see your demonstrating at Joint Clubs in New London. Unfortunately I am not going! I am in the New Jersey Ship Model Society. What club are you? I hate to miss your demonstration as I have a model still sitting in its box at home! Wish we could meet. 

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Daniel,

 

I’m a member of the Shipcraft Guild of New York City.  Depending upon where you live in Jersey, we are probably not too far from each other.  We could always make room for a visitor a future meeting, in Brooklyn.

 

As for the demonstration - spoiler alert - the actual technique is dead-simple and virtually fail-proof.  I will be doing samples with two different washes over two different surfaces; the stock raised grain, as well as the grain sanded away so that the coarse-grit scratches become the wood structure/grain.  The latter provides the better, more realistic result, IMO, but both are pleasing.

 

There will be pictures I took of Herbert Thomesan’s work on the Texel diorama, as he is the one who taught me this distressing method.

 

Much of the discussion will center on surface prep, paint compatibility issues, and different effects.  The 10 minutes allotted, should just about cover what I have to say about it.  Maybe one of my club members will record the session on my phone, and I will post it here, afterwards.

 

As of now, I’ve made decent progress with painting the port side; I’ve painted in the bootcap and have begun blacking in the wales; all of my simulated iron work shows nicely under the paint.  The starboard side is base-coated and distress washed through the waist, but I have paused the distress washing so that there is a good visual contrast for the Joint Clubs, and to allow the oil paint a chance to cure.  So, I will be bringing the model along, even if nothing is assembled.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Do you paint by a hairy brush or do you airbrush the large sides, Marc?

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello Heinrich,

 

I own an airbrush - new in box, single action - but not a compressor.  Using an airbrush would certainly have simplified the application of the raw sienna base color, acrylic.  By brush, I had to lay down 5 thin coats to get the color saturation I was after, without muddying up the details.

 

Perhaps I will use that airbrush when it comes time to basecoat the upper bulwarks.  Air compressors come in much smaller sizes today, than they used to.

 

The trouble has been these artist acrylics;  they must be thinned, but then they require a lot of coats.  They also seem kind of fragile, until they’ve had a good long time to fully dry and harden. 

 

Purpose-made model acrylics, which I also am using, are not as finicky; 1-2 coats, straight out of the bottle, and you are done.

 

The painting of the wales is coming along nicely.  It has had the odd, and unexpected effect of somewhat muting the appearance of the VDB  distress coat.

 

Before I began blacking in the port side wales, the distressing from port to starboard seemed a near match.  Now the port side seems significantly lighter.  I will have to wait until after blacking in the starboard wales to make any adjustments.

 

I will probably tone the blacking down with a dullcoat wash, but that will also wait until painting is near complete.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Yes airbrushing has got its disadvantages you can buy canned pressure air or use a care tire. The red inside of the hull and gunportlids will be airbrushed easier and much more comfortable by "gun" than by brush. Due to the less good coating of red colours in general.

 

Wow that wooden hull looks greatly "woody" - did you paint the UD with the same mixture of colour, too? (I'm always affraid of differences in the colours shades.)

[EJ_L]

WOW!!! Your hull is looking mighty fine!

[SJSoane]

Marc, the weathered wood looks great. Those are artist's colors?

 

Mark

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi guys!  Thank you for the kind words.

 

Heinrich, I will be using a much lighter color for the decks because they should represent raw wood, whereas the hull would have been painted to protect all of the iron fasteners.  I’ll use ModelMaster’s Random Tan with the VDB, or maybe the walnut ink for a distress wash.  The ModelMaster produces a durable and level finish.

 

Yes, Mark, I’ve been using Grumbacher’s Academy line for the Raw Sienna and the Black.  I liked that I wouldn’t have to do any color mixing to arrive at my ventre-de-biche color.  The raw sienna has been durable enough, with all the rubbing away of VDB, but the black rubs away pretty easily even after the paint seems well dried.

 

The samples I made months ago seem durable, but maybe the black just needs an extended dry-time.  I think, I will spray the whole hull with matte lacquer, once all of the detailing is done.  Accidentally, I bought a matte latex-based clear-coat.  That leaves a good surface finish.  I just wonder whether lacquer would be better/more durable, and whether blushes will form over the acrylic.

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc - 

 

The hulls are looking fantastic.  Looking forward to your presentation in New London.

 

I would be hesitant to use a lacquer based finish over other paints.  I have found that the solvent is very aggressive and I have had it wrinkle underlying coats, even after they have dried for weeks.  Test, and test, and test again.

 

Dan 

[Hubac's Historian]

Thank you, Dan!  As the days tick away, I’m beginning to feel less certain about what I will have to say at the conference about paint compatibility, but your point about lacquer topcoats is well received.  Maybe the latex really is the way to go, there.  The latex and acrylic paint are both water-based, after all.  My spray test on the samples didn’t cause any issues - aside from laying it down too heavily.  So, anyway, we will see.  I look forward to seeing you and everyone in New London.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Guest bearegalleon]

It looks fabulous, a proto-fontage heaven.

 

I hate to ask this now, but . . . is it certain the wales were blacked?  

 

Seventeenth century ships were not big on blacked wales; by mid sixties the English play around with blacking the lower pair, while everyone else seems to be holding off.  French capital ships may be different, though.  

 

On a side note, an acrylic method for tarred wood hulls comes from a ground coat of Testers wood, followed by a wash of black and then one of liquitex transparent burnt umber.  A ragged toothbrush, dipped in rubbing alcohol and streaked across the surface, adds grain, but takes practice.  Black pens can be used to highlight bolts and so forth, and it’s a good idea to add that detail before the washes.   It gives a Texel like effect while practical for rooms where oil fumes and clean up are not desirable.  

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by bearegalleon

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Baere Galleon!  Thank you for looking in and for your kind words.

 

Well, I’d be hard-pressed to say that blackened wales were an absolute certainty for French ships, at this time in the late 17th C.

 

Somewhere, I’ve read a brief account (that I may be able to locate, later) of the first SR’s colors; this account, as I recall, does at least mention a blackened boot top, above the white of the lower hull.  So, there’s that, if I’m remembering correctly.

 

The color P. Vary/E. Compardel (in my opinion) portrait of SR’s reconstructed bow and quarters also shows the blackened boot topping.

 

 

Everything else about this portrait, in terms of color, seems off to me. I find it highly unlikely that the ship would have been painted entirely in ultra-marine, nor that the wales would be guilded.

 

These two portraits by Peter Monamy agree with the black boot topping, at least:

 

When, exactly, they were painted is not clear, but sometime within 20 years of the event depicted, seems reasonable.

 

This (I think contemporary) portrait of La Couronne, again, shows the black boot, and maybe blackened wales:

Here is another (I believe) contemporary portrait of the LaSalle expedition, featuring the second-rate Le Joli.  The image distortion has to do with the angle at which I took this cell picture (of a book’s cover), but otherwise, the painting is a very detailed and accurate accounting of a French warship of this period.  Wales and bootcap definitely black.

Then, we can explore the realm of near-contemporary models and modern, research-based models.

 

The Louis Quinze model, of which I am having trouble up-loading images of, dates to around the turn of the 17th C., and her wales are blackened.

 

This circa 1740s model of Le Dauphin Royal is from a later time than SR1, but definitely shows blackened wales:

 

The modern Frolich model of L’Ambiteaux shows blackened wales:

 

And the recent work of J.C. Lemineur and Jose Tusset show blackened wales on the St. Philippe of 1693:

Not to mention the fact that the Tanneron model of SR, although the sources for this model are clouded in mystery, shows blackened wales.

 

It may not have been an absolute doctrine to paint French ship’s wales black, in the late 1680s, but it seems a reasonable convention of the times.

 

Also, I just happen to like how it looks.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[shipmodel]

Hi Marc - 

 

A very quick skim of VdV paintings have English ships with only the lower wales painted black.  The French do seem to take this style up higher, so I agree with your color choices.

 

Below the lowest wale the black color is not, I think, a boot topping, but is part of the 'black stuff' which goes down to the keel.  It was one of the earlier teredo worm prevention systems before coppering.  I recall reading that many  formulations were tried, mixed into tar to coat the bottom, some of them including human feces.  There was also 'white stuff', but I think this was developed later than the SL.

 

This does not affect your colors, of course, since yours is a waterline model.    Just a bit of trivia.   

 

Dan 

[Hubac's Historian]

Yes, Dan, and Herbert Tomesan does a good job of representing the brown stuff on his Texel models.

[Guest bearegalleon]

Van de Velde is contemporary, reliable and realistic, so that’s a great source.  Check out Bakhuisen as well.  

 

The 18th and 19th century models and drawings are probably better as historiography than sources, esp. the ones made during the reign of Louis Philippe.  That huge instructional model is gorgeous, and sources say very early 18th century, during the ship’s lifespan and after the fashion for blacked wales along the whole of the side came in.  After slowly cooking along the lower sides of English ships for fifty years, blackened wales suddenly appear everywhere right at the turn of the 18th century.  There has to be a rich story there.  

 

Your detail work along the upperworks is spectacular.  Keep up the good work!