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Line of gratings along open waist of Euromodel's La Renommee - flush or above deck?


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I'm building the Euromodel La Renommee, which has a line of gratings (along with an open hatch for a ladder) alongside a fairly open waist on the main deck (see top figure in the plans below):

 

837001420_IMG_7064copy.thumb.jpg.b5b9a895ec5cafc49d8d3e56cd54f2d3.jpg

 

Given the wide open waist, it doesn't seem like the gratings are necessary for ventilation.  Whether they are raised or not, plenty of water will fall through the opening onto the gun deck below.  So, are these purely cosmetic?  Or is there some kind of function I'm not seeing?  Given the open hatch within the row of gratings, it seems fairly dangerous if the gratings were flush with the deck.  On the other hand, having them raised seems to dramatically reduce the walkable area around the waist.  

 

Chapman's Plate XXXII from his Architectura (on which this kit is based), along with his plans for the Venus, both seem to suggest that these waist gratings are flush with the deck given the lack of shadowing which is evident around the central grates on both sets of plans:

656446624_Chapmanplate32.thumb.jpg.830d668f5ffc8e9fa39571c0b4c509f2.jpg

Swedish_frigate_Venus_(1783)-schematics.jpg.8921567a44f1ed6eaa974d646a278ea7.jpg

 

Builders of the model have been pretty evenly split as to whether the gratings are flush with, or rise above, the main deck.  Some even have just installed the gratings on the main deck with no coamings.  For example, see the following:

 

Flush with coamings:

renommee15.jpg.7e26640701a9c8045516bf51eb777fe8.jpg

Raised with coamings:

dEL4A7979.thumb.jpg.f5e2613b2b3ff64cb44f0db4744edbc4.jpg

Flush no coamings:

1772404366_Mainmast2.jpg.d3d80637f56c7b9bbb71cec6dcfa416c.jpg

Just curious if anyone has any thoughts as to whether these should be raised or flush, and whether the grates should have coamings or not.  I've been researching this but can't seem to find a definitive answer, and looking to other models hasn't helped given the various approaches taken.  Thanks in advance!

 

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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The gratings would be in comings raised above the deck, Mike.   While what you say is true about water still going below the decks, by having them raised most of the water would have drained off through the scuppers.   The other thing is, that often tarp or sail material would have draped over the opening in the main deck.  From what I've read, it would have been supported either by the spare yards many frigates carried or rope or not covered at all.  It wouldn't have covered any openings for ladders.  There's no real agreement from what I've encountered.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans                             Triton Cross-Section   

                                                                                                                       USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War  _(Gallery) Build Log

                                                                                Wasa (Gallery)

                                                                                                                        HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Hey Mark, all good points.  It seems though that the plans show the gratings to be flush with the deck, and possibly without coamings.  I just haven’t come across other ships with a similar set up of gratings on either side of an open waist like that.

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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A ship with any deck opening in a weather deck without combings might go to sea for trials, combings would be at the top of the list for addition upon the return to the shipyard to correct shortcomings. Deck openings all, regardless of use need to have provisions to prevent flowing water from going below, hence combings. As important, all deck openings need to have a method to be sealed against water inundating the lower decks from Storm or Sea. That means that hatch combings will have a method of being covered and sealed. That typically means clips, battens and wedges to hold the covers in place. Something modern man seems to have forgotten, seldom displayed in models and reproductions, but the actions of Storm and Sea is little changed over the years. Tiny details for models, overlooked for reproductions until flooding begins. Can overlook Batten Down Clips on combings for models unless the scale would require them to be in place, a deck opening without a combing is against all the experience of Seamen and spells 'wrong', when they see it.

Edited by jud
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Thanks Jud.  That echoes exactly what Mark said.  It's odd though in that (1) the plans suggest no coamings, and (2) there really seems to be no purpose for them other than possibly cosmetic (no need for ventilation when that wide open waist is sitting there).  I also think that it would be odd to have them flush with no coamings given that there is the ladder hatch opening - seems dangerous to have an open hole in the floor like that without at least coamings to protect people running around on the deck.

 

 

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Mike,

Kits are kits and designed to make a profit.  Accuracy is often the first thing that gets ignored.  The gratings not only provided fresh air but also light down below.  Note that even the ladderways on the real ships have comings.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans                             Triton Cross-Section   

                                                                                                                       USS Constellaton (kit bashed to 1854 Sloop of War  _(Gallery) Build Log

                                                                                Wasa (Gallery)

                                                                                                                        HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Makes one wonder if the plans are correct, suspect there is some artistic liberty being taken there someplace. A problem with modern man depicting what they think is true historical methods and practices. A Drawing, Painting or Model is interpreted as the creator see's in their mind, most having never experienced the condition and their vision becomes the accepted norm, even when logic and those with experience say nay, it is difficult to change minds of those with no hands on experience, they hold to the comfort of what they believed was fact, understandable, a human defense mechanism. I do see a lot of thought and effort on this site to depict true reproduction of what was, much research, thought and discussion go into many models in that effort to represent fact and progress is being made across the whole spectrum. Plain Table Platform over the Tiller of the Endeavor is a recent interpretation of a builder that has applied much thought and research to arrive at a logical use for such a crossover, changing an unrealistic abomination into a useful addition for Cook to use his Plane Table and Adelaide from, tools he was known to have and use for chart making, logical, but suspect it will be a hard sell because of the acceptance and entrenchment of the common crossover abomination. 

Edited by jud
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Hi Mike;

 

I know that La Renommee is a bit later in time, but a very common phrase in ship-building contracts from the late 17th century/early 18th, related to gratings, is that they are 'to vent the smoake (sic) of the ordnance'.

 

The gratings, if this is their purpose, are therefore designed for something moving upwards, not downwards.

 

Although the waist is open, I would suggest that a fully planked gangway over the cannon would hinder the escape of the smoke, so the above hypothesis is reasonable. In this case, the prime function of the gangways would be for sailors to walk along. with this in mind, flush gratings would seem most likely.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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So my understanding is that in early designs, those “decks” where the gratings are located were simply walkways connecting a raised f’ocsle and quarter deck.  They evolved to form a more traditional deck except for the open waist.  So perhaps these walkways (and the fore and aft decks at the same level) aren’t  considered the main deck, with hatchways to the ship’s interior.  Perhaps the main deck, for purposes of watertight integrity (such as it was), was the deck on which the boats are stowed.  Therefore there would be no need to make the gratings watertight (ie raised comings to secure a cover).  As to the purpose of the gratings, I’d guess they were intended to help dissipate smoke from the guns and let in some additional light.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

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Putting aside the kit, the plans shown above (Plate XXXII and of the Venus) were drawn by none other than Fredrik Henrik af Chapman, who was a naval architect, dockyard owner and manager, etc. and was the author of Architectura Navalis Mercatoria (1768).  He was kind of a big deal, and my guess is that the plans in the Architectura, including Plate XXXII, were pretty carefully drawn.  That's what gives me a little pause.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_Henrik_af_Chapman

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_frigate_Venus_(1783)

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Thanks Mark and Keith - dissipation of smoke does make sense.  Seems like there is no definitive answer here.  Unfortunately there is not much information on Swedish ships out there, and few models.  

 

I have a little bit of time before I get to the main deck, so I'll stew on it a little more.  PiratePete, who is putting together very helpful build notes for the Euromodel kits, and I had extensive discussions over the weekend about these gratings.  Maybe some of this information can go into his build notes.

 

Many thanks for everyone's thoughts on this topic!  Very interesting!

Edited by Landlubber Mike

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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I have to agree with Mark above and was going to post when i saw his reply, what would be the point of coamings when the waist directly behind is open for the water to pour into, it would be much more sense to be flush with the deck for smoke and ventilation purposes

Regards

Paul

The clerk of the cheque's yacht of sheerness

Current build HMS Sirius (1797) 1:48 scratch POF from NMM plans

HMS Winchelsea by chuck 1:48

Cutter cheerful by chuck 1:48

Previous builds-

Elidir - Thames steam barge

Cutty Sark-Billings boats

Wasa - billings boats

Among others 😁

 

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Thanks Paul.  I'm leaning too towards the "gangway" theory with the gratings flush with the deck - makes more sense to me, and seems to be consistent with Chapman's Plate XXXII and Venus plans.  I still have some time to mull things over.  Many thanks for all the thoughts!

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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