HMS Pegasus by The_bitter_end - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64 scale - FINISHED

[The Bitter End]

Good Evening All

 

This is not the most positive way to start a build log but I guess it was to be expected for a newbie like myself.

 

So I have finally received my HMS Pegasus from Amati. The box is barely open and I already have problems.

This would be a great point to recommend a build log or other resource for this build. I have found many but Im struggling on that covers the finer details that a rookie like myself needs.

 

The instructions make no reference to a rabbet or bearding line, I have however come across reference to this in virtually every single build log that I have read on the vessel. My extreme lack of experience has lead me to several questions regarding these two subjects.

 

1. Rabbet line:

- Am I correct in saying that they should be cut from the very bow to the very stern(excluding the vertical portion of the stern as indicated between the red arrows)

-Should this line be cut 1.5mm "tall" and 1.25mm "deep" on either side of the false keel?

-Do I need to sand the true keel down from 5mm to 2.5mm to match the width of the false keel after being cut down for the rabbet line?(this doesn's seem to make a hue amount of sense but it seems like this is what some people have done on some of the photos that I have seen.

 

2. Bearding line:

- how do I determine where to draw the bearding line?

- should the false keel be tapered evenly from the bearding line down to the rabbet line?

- the instructions say "the stern area of the false keel to which the rudder post will be glued is to be sanded to roughly half the original width" does this essentially mean that I should sand from the bearding line to the vertical portion of the stern as well as the rabbet line(so that it tapers to the edge of the keel both vertically and horizontally?)

 

Thanks a million in advance!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 03:48 AM by The Bitter End

[Retired guy]

Hi, look at your plan on framing it will tell you where the beading line starts to where the it will end at the rabbet 

 

Drawing just to show you what I mean

 

 

 

 

I used tracing paper and traced the shape then relaid it to my frame, on my model the keel is part of the frame, do you have to add the keel on yours 

 

 

 

 

 

You shape from the beading line down to the rabbet, rabbet depth will be the thickness of your plank

 

Hope this makes sense

 

Regards

Richard 

[The Bitter End]

7 hours ago, Retired guy said:

Hi, look at your plan on framing it will tell you where the beading line starts to where the it will end at the rabbet 

 

Drawing just to show you what I mean

 

 

 

 

I used tracing paper and traced the shape then relaid it to my frame, on my model the keel is part of the frame, do you have to add the keel on yours 

 

 

 

 

 

You shape from the beading line down to the rabbet, rabbet depth will be the thickness of your plank

 

Hope this makes sense

 

Regards

Richard 

Hi Richard

 

Thank you so much for your response. This now makes perfect sense.

 

The only problem is that I have is that the plans fail to indicate either a bearding or rabbet line.

 

Is it appropriate to just run the bearding line right below the lowest point of the frames?

[Retired guy]

34 minutes ago, The_bitter_end said:

Hi Richard

 

Thank you so much for your response. This now makes perfect sense.

 

The only problem is that I have is that the plans fail to indicate either a bearding or rabbet line.

 

Is it appropriate to just run the bearding line right below the lowest point of the frames?

That is a bummer

 

The bearding line starts right below lowest point of  all frames (bulkheads) you are correct but you have to make sure all frames are smooth from one to the other if you look at my frames they did not hit the bearding line so I had to build up face of frames (bulkheads) because if you don't planking will be up and down, trial fit your b so you can see where.

Do you have to glue the keel to the bottom of your center piece?

 

Regards

Richard 

[The Bitter End]

5 minutes ago, Retired guy said:

That is a bummer

 

The bearding line starts right below lowest point of  all frames (bulkheads) you are correct but you have to make sure all frames are smooth from one to the other if you look at my frames they did not hit the bearding line so I had to build up face of frames (bulkheads) because if you don't planking will be up and down, trial fit your b so you can see where.

Do you have to glue the keel to the bottom of your center piece?

 

Regards

Richard 

It is a bummer indeed haha

 

I will pay careful attention to the framing. That is going to be a whole other challenge.

 

Yes, I do have to glue what they referto as a "true keel" onto the edge of the false keel

[Retired guy]

Then your rabbet will be at the true keel 

[Jolley Roger]

Hi Haiko,

Looks like the SAPO came through after all, hope the customs duties wasn't too rough!

 

I have come across two build logs that have reference to the rabbet and bearding process, hope it helps:

HMS Pegasus by SkipW - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

HMS Pegasus by Landlubber Mike - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[chris watton]

No rabbet, like almost all European kits, Pegasus is double planked. Most US kits are single planked, which allow for a rabbet. There are patterns that glue to what would be the rabbet positions. A proper rabbet would not work so well with double planked kits, as the first planking would most likely take up all of the space in the rabbet slot, due to the angles and bevels involved.

 

[The Bitter End]

Sorry about the delayed response, I just got back in.

 

That is perfect. That is sort of what I was hoping.

 

thanks again!

[The Bitter End]

6 hours ago, Jolley Roger said:

Hi Haiko,

Looks like the SAPO came through after all, hope the customs duties wasn't too rough!

 

I have come across two build logs that have reference to the rabbet and bearding process, hope it helps:

HMS Pegasus by SkipW - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

HMS Pegasus by Landlubber Mike - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

Hi again!

 

Customs duty ended up being zero Rand. I only had to pay 15% VAT, which seems fair seeing as I didn't pay tax in Europe

 

Thanks for getting those links for me. I will be bookmarking both and going through them in fine detail immediately.

[The Bitter End]

15 hours ago, chris watton said:

No rabbet, like almost all European kits, Pegasus is double planked. Most US kits are single planked, which allow for a rabbet. There are patterns that glue to what would be the rabbet positions. A proper rabbet would not work so well with double planked kits, as the first planking would most likely take up all of the space in the rabbet slot, due to the angles and bevels involved.

 

Hi Chris

 

Thanks for your input! I feel like you might be right about this. What does however confuse me is why the likes of SkipW, Blue Ensign and Landlubber Mike went for the rabbet line. I am totally new to this so I dont know if that is just a design choice or if there is a "correct" way.

 

EDIT- I just found out that you designed this model. I find myself quite amused by what Just happened "you MIGHT be right Chris" 😂😂

😂😂 sorry about that. No further questions.

 

Cheers, Haiko

Edited October 3, 2019 by The_bitter_end
I just found out that Chris is probably fairly well informed on this subject

[The Bitter End]

Day 2 updates and questions.

 

Progress is very slow but I am really enjoying finding my feet.

 

I have cut the rabbet(1.5mm "high" and 1.2mm "deep", leaving a strip of untouched wood down the middle of the false keel 2.5mm wide) and marked the bearding lines(just a fraction below the bottom edge of the last 3 bulkheads) and Pre-fitted the bulkheads. this leads me to my questions for the day.

 

Do the Rabbet lines in the photos below look correct? I cut the rabbet lines at a 90 degree angle but I see some examples(like in the example so kindly posted by Richard above) where they are cut away at a slope.

 

I realise that I still need to taper the stern from the bearding line to the edge of the false keel(I hope that's correct)

 

 

My second and third questions are as follows. Is the bearding line marked correctly? Do i need to cut back the lower edges of the bulkheads so that they follow the same contour as the bearding line?

Edited October 2, 2019 by The_bitter_end
I realised I had missed out a question that is relevant to this post

[Vane]

Considering its your first model, I wouldnt get stuck on extra details like that. Just follow the instructions and put the bulkheads into the frams and start the first layer of planking. You will learn as you go along and when you do your next kit you can start trying to raise the level of quality.    

[The Bitter End]

7 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Chris is right - he designed the kit !!

 Just initial points - if you are going to copper her then it is pointless getting too wrapped up in the rabbet along the main keel

The bottom of the bulk heads should be shaped  -  I mark the edges of the bulk heads for the 4 or 5 BHs fore and aft along the edge facing midships and shape to just leave that edge untouched

 

Sort your fixing points out !!

 

There are two main things I would suggest about  Pegasus  here ( and Fly of course is identical)

My log pegasus log  Shows this though most of the log was lost

 But My pickle log  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/8650-hm-schooner-pickle-by-spyglass-caldercraft-164-scale/?do=findComment&comment=267216

Covers the ground illustrating with some pics of Pegasus

 

1 Its really handy to create a "rabbet" at the stem - it really helps when planking. You create a false rabbet by chamferring the fore edge of the keel and then the extra keel bit completes the rabbet - but need a rabbet across the "tongue"and top section

 

2 But getting the stern shaping right makes life sooooo much easier .

The main issue is bring two planking layers into the stern post -  dont try  - chamfer in the first layer  before  reaching the edge of the keel  and LOOK how steep an angle the aft Bulkhead edges need to be

 

 

Good Morning Spygalss!(it is 0504 here)

 

This is all starting to make sense. And I am genuinely warmed by the willingness of this community to help me. The detail you have put into this respose makes all the difference. THANK YOU!

 

I do still have a couple of questions, which I hope you font mind answering. I know exactly what you are saying about the fact that I should be too worried about the rabbet as I am going to be coppering the Hull anyway. However I really want to get every single step as perfect as possible so I can learn for future projects. I am in no rush to get finished. I am a very patient man and I live in a very remote place with not much to do after the sun goes down.

 

1. I think I understand what you mean about leaving the one edge untouched on the bulkhead but how do you determine how much to take off on the other edge?is this just something that you eyeball as you go along?

 

2. What do you mean by "sort your fixing points out? are you referring to the contact surface between the first layer of planking and the bulkhead section?

 

3. I notice that you cut the rabbet for the stem at slope and not at 90 degrees(i dont know if this makes sense?) By the time I read this post I had already cut a rabbet at 90 degrees on the false keel should I cut it back to a slope? I know that I was probably not meant to cut a Rabbet at all but I have sort of crossed that bridge already.

 

4. Thanks again for that tip on bringing the first planking up the the bearding line on the stern. Am I correct in saying that these planks just get sanded so that they taper smoothly to the false keel?

 

Regards

Haiko

 

 

[The Bitter End]

6 hours ago, Vane said:

Considering its your first model, I wouldnt get stuck on extra details like that. Just follow the instructions and put the bulkheads into the frams and start the first layer of planking. You will learn as you go along and when you do your next kit you can start trying to raise the level of quality.    

Hi Vane

 

Thank you for your message. I cant really argue with you on this, you are totally right. I will however try and explain my somewhat poor logic....I want to try and really focus on very tiny detail on this build, even the things that dont really matter or wont be seen so that I can get maximum training value out of this for future builds that are more complex. I may well end up following your advice when I realise just what ive bitten off but for now im going to be as German as possible about this process.

[The Bitter End]

Day 3 (morning)

 

I have now tried to take on as much advice as possible(bar the mistakes Ive already made...sorry Chris)

 

I have sanded down from the bearding line to the stern. I am not entirely sure if this is a sufficient amount of sanding. I am erring on the side of caution at the moment and i just sanded down to the rabbet line that I cut at the stern which was 1.2mm deep on both sides.

I also cut the groove suggested into the stem. Again I am not sure if this is correct. Please advise if you have any input.

 

[The Bitter End]

6 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Yea that looks right  At the stem just take the stern edge of the keel down to just a bit over the stern post less two second planking thicknesses so that you just end up with the second planking jussst a teeny bit proud of thestern post and you can sand those strips flush

Well Explained!

[The Bitter End]

5 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Bitter end your numberd questions  = quick and messy reply i have terrible internet

1 Eventully when they are mounted you use a planking strip to check the curve of the hull over the bulkhead and sand/ shave

But i do a fair amount before gluing the bulk heads I mount them  unglued with decks ect to hold them fairly firm

Then using one of the long " stanley knife - style break off blades"  trim the edge of the buklhead of holding the blade equidstant from the BHs before and after its not accurate byt gets a lot of the initial stuff off

 

2 fixing points  I should have said mounting points - i drill and fit for threaded rods to mount onto pedestal

 

3 i cut the rabbet so the plank could lie into it  -same applies to edges of all rabbetss they are not square cut

 

4 yes - technically i suppose the bearding limne rusa sling the bottom of the bulkhead - cutting off teh corners  for and aft

 I actually bring the planking to a point halfway  roughly between that bearding line and the keel edges and indeed then just smooth it in so you get a run onto the thinning bit of the keel

Good morning Mr. Glass!

 

Perfect explanations again. I came close to doing all this correctly as you will see in my next post. I just need to modify my rabbet somewhat to take away the 90 degree corner.

 

thanks, Haiko

[The Bitter End]

Day 3 (Evening)

 

At this point I faired the bulkheads.

 

Predominantly bulkheads 1 to 4 and 10-13. I did this by dry fitting all bulkheads and then removing and shaping one at a time(repeatedly) until i got a reasonably tapered angle for the planking. I suspect there will be some modification as I go. In addition to this I also sanded all the laser cut surfaces a small amount to allow better glue adhesion.

 

I then dry fitted the lower deck. My suggestion to a newbie like myself at this stage is to clean up and sand all mating surfaces as best as possible. I found it to be a hang of a tight fit. After cleaning it up a bit the deck went in somewhat more easily. However once I was satisfied with everything and I had glued the bulkheads in and started to fit the deck things got somewhat panicky because I was really struggling to get the lower deck in and the glue was starting to dry....SO...make sure that everything goes together without effort or you may regret it.

 

Another minor observation is that I fitted and glued bulkheads 3-10 first, then seated and glued the lower deck. I found this to allow me just a little more space to work on the lower deck and then fitted the remaining bulkheads.

 

The plan for this morning is to tidy up the work a bit and fit and shape the "plank termination" pieces as far as possible

 

This is the progress so far, excuse the rather odd keel clamp. It looks strange but works a charm. PLEASE tell me if you see something wrong here, Even the smallest detail. I am here to learn.

PS. I realise that my Rabbet lines need some correction But I have decided to attend to this as I begin planking. I suspect that the rabbet is a somewhat "fluid" structure which in some places was not needed at all(particularly on the keel in the bearding area(i think)), some places where it should remain cut at 90 degrees and some places where it should taper in at a currently unknown angle. ...

 

 

[Vane]

If you want to do a very detailed and high quality model, my number one tip is to buy alot of sandpaper and really use it everywhere on every piece on every side and make sure perfect fits. 

[The Bitter End]

12 hours ago, Vane said:

If you want to do a very detailed and high quality model, my number one tip is to buy alot of sandpaper and really use it everywhere on every piece on every side and make sure perfect fits. 

Hi Vane

 

Thank you for taking the time to give me this advice. I will follow it as far as humanely possible. I have a pile of 600,1000 and 1200 grit paper that I will put to good use. Keep an eye on this build and hopefully you will see improved surface condition from now on.

[The Bitter End]

5 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Thats not at all bad - i think you will need a bit more fairing at stem and stern BHs - i try to ens up with just a trace line of marker on the ulk head.s  Oh I forgtot to add my oterh good tip use the deck or even the deck offcut as a guide to the amount need to be take off the BHs - if you have the deck fitted - temporarilly or permamnently then you can eyeball the angle neded on the BH from above to match the deck edge.

If i remember one of the BHS towards the stern is a teeny bit proud of the run at bulwark level - run a strip along to check the lie .

 

Oh and its a good time to at least rough shape the blocks in between the end  fore  and aft bulkheads-

I temporary fit them buy positioning and running a drill  through boh and use a drill bit as a dowel, Then you can mark on the block the curve on the " unchamfered" edge of the bulkhead which is a wonderful guide to shaping the block 

 

great  progress 

if you havent glued  yet - or even if you have - NOW is the time to decide your mounting  method and position

Hi again Spy

 

I took you advice and did quite a bit more fairing, particularly on bulkheads 1, 2 and 3 using the negative of the deck sheet to guide me. That was a great suggestion.

 

I took a look at what you said and you are entirely correct. BHS No. 9 is about 1mm higher than the rest. I will be attending to this tomorrow morning once the evenings glue has dried.

 

I also shaped the blocked now as suggested...a pretty challenging task. I think I will need to make further changes to their profile as I begin planking. I am having a really hard time visualizing exactly how planking will lie so I dont want to make any changes I cat fix just yet.

 

Is there somewhere specific that I can look at mounting methods? I didn't consider it AT ALL.

 

Thank you for your encouragement and patience. It is hugely appreciated.

[vulcanbomber]

You are making good progress.

 

As Spyglass says, make sure you fair the bulkheads well, Use a strip of the planking and hold it against the bulkheads and you will see where more fairing is needed to get a nice smooth curve. The more time you spend here getting the shaping right, the easier it will be later on in the planking.

 

Edit: You might find adding some balsa in between the fore and aft bulkheads will help when planking.

Edited October 4, 2019 by vulcanbomber
Update

[The Bitter End]

9 hours ago, vulcanbomber said:

You are making good progress.

 

As Spyglass says, make sure you fair the bulkheads well, Use a strip of the planking and hold it against the bulkheads and you will see where more fairing is needed to get a nice smooth curve. The more time you spend here getting the shaping right, the easier it will be later on in the planking.

 

Edit: You might find adding some balsa in between the fore and aft bulkheads will help when planking.

Hi Vulcan!

 

Thanks for the encouragement. Funnily enough my first question for the day was going to be about the balsa between bulkheads. You have answered my question for me. I will begin with that this morning after my post. I think it will also give me a better idea if my fairing is correct.

 

cheers

 

Haiko

[The Bitter End]

7 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

Mounting sort of fall into two categories

A cradle of some type where the model just sits in and that can take many forms

Or a pedestal mounting which needs to be fixed to the vessel.

Some people put screws into the keel 

I use bolts or threaded rod which has advantages i find

BUT it must be done early in the build preferably f before any gluing is done but can be done any time befor first planking

I drill and reinforce holes for the rod or bolts and fit in captive nuts see my logs for more detail

eg https://modelshipworld.com/topic/8650-hm-schooner-pickle-by-spyglass-caldercraft-164-scale/?do=findComment&comment=267216

and

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/420-hms-pegasus-by-simonthepieman-victory-models-164-started-by-spyglass/?do=findComment&comment=4702

 

REMEMBER to at least temporarily fix the walnut keels bits before drilling the mounting holes - its MURDER tryin to line them up later !!

 

On a related subject I use temporary dowels to hold stem, stern and keel pieces in place . and if you do that you find the stand fixings can be used to hold the walniut keel bits in place/

 

You might like to try it. I do it mainly to be able to  take off the walnut bits to enable free sanding of the hull without damage to those bits

Hi again Spy

 

As much as I like the look of the mounts you did I think for a first build it is best that I don't complicate things too much and I just go with the cradle option, this is mostly because Im a complete newbie and Ive already glued the bulkhead pieces in place. . I will definitely do this for my next build.

 

I will however take your advice on pre-pinning the keel portions in place once I have sorted this balsa issue out.

 

[The Bitter End]

Day 4

 

Progress has been slow but enjoyable and I am learning, mostly by error, all the time.

 

At this stage I increased the fairing on the bulkheads as suggested although I probably still need to increase the fairing on the stern BHS. I have also shaped and fitted the blocks. My next step is to install the balsa fillers, I am hoping these will give me a better idea of how the lines will run and assist with further fairing.

 

I do have some concerns about the bap between the rabbet and BH 2/3 as pointed out with my grubby singer in the photo below. Is this going to be a problem when planking?

 

I was also wondering what your views are on using standard hardware store woodfiller to fill small gaps around the balsa wood etc when Im done(all stuff that will ultimately be planked over.

 

[vulcanbomber]

Yes, pre-bending the strips will help a lot. I used steam to heat them up where they needed bending, it helps when they are supple and less are likely to snap. place them against the hull while they are hot and hold in place until cooled using pegs, rubber bands and anything else that will help. 

 

There are lots of tutorials on hull planking on MSW, but the one I used as a guide when I made my first build was 'Simple Hull Planking For Beginners' which can be found here: http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php

 

Don't forget, we are here to help, and no question is a silly question!

Edited October 5, 2019 by vulcanbomber
Spelling mistake

[The Bitter End]

9 hours ago, SpyGlass said:

And hello vulcan - it was your Fly build many many moons ago which restarted my modeeling - I still have bits i stole from your log !!

Top of the morning to you Spy!

 

Thanks again for helping me through this build. Your advice has saved me several times already. I will definitely not fit the walnut stem until all the planking is done. I love the Idea of bending around the bow(excuse my sloppy use of nautical terms, I got them from working on oil rigs which isn't quite nautical college.)

 

I ended up deciding to start with the balsa infills. Not so much because i feel they are needed but rather because i feel like they are a good skill building exercise. I would like to one day(in the distant and theoretical future) do scratch build and this seems like a perfect baby step to start teaching me about shaping etc.

 

Dont worry I wont attempt to craft a double plank rabbet, I can only imagine the complications that could create. Your first planking looks beautiful. It almost seems a shame to cover it. On a vaguely related note, when I get to the gun ports, is the optimal order of installation as follows: Deck, deck planking, gun ports and THEN first hull planking? also you said in your build log that the gun ports dont fit. I unfortunately didnt fully understand the correct fix for this? must I shorten the ports and then recut the puzzle joint.

 

I will do my utmost to follow your planking/rabbet guid but you may have to tolerate alot more questions when I get there. It seems prudent to ask your views on wood filler at this point. do you stick to a glue/sawdust mix or do you use actual fillers on your work.

 

Its good to know that I am making decent progress, I am very lucky to be in a situation where my time is my own between 1730 and 0800 every night. Please tell me if the quality of my work is not where it should be and I will be sure to take a step back and slow down.

 

I hope you have an outstanding day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Bitter End]

18 hours ago, vulcanbomber said:

Yes, pre-bending the strips will help a lot. I used steam to heat them up where they needed bending, it helps when they are supple and less are likely to snap. place them against the hull while they are hot and hold in place until cooled using pegs, rubber bands and anything else that will help. 

 

There are lots of tutorials on hull planking on MSW, but the one I used as a guide when I made my first build was 'Simple Hull Planking For Beginners' which can be found here: http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php

 

Don't forget, we are here to help, and no question is a silly question!

Vulcan! Good morning sir

 

Thank you for this advice and the link. I have already started using it for the creating on filler blocks. I will be referencing it plenty in the future.

 

I forged a copper head to go onto an adjustable soldering Iron for plank bending. Do you know anything about this method? is steaming superior and if so what is the best method to steam a plank.

I will be sure to test the "no stupid questions theory to its limits!

 

 

[The Bitter End]

Day 5

 

I opted to begin with Balsa wood fillers for this build. I mostly did this because it is my first build and I felt it would be a good learning exercise. I have limited beginners advice at this point other than to work as slowly as possible. I probably wont be getting a Nobel prize for physics for pointing this out but its obviously much harder to build back up a piece of wood that has been cut back too much than it is to just shave a hair more off to make things fit. I also filled some of the gaps with a wood glue and balsa dust mix. I found that the balsa dust doesnt actually work nearly as well as the MDF dust for this application.

It is also worth repeating the fact that some of the BHs are not entirely level where the deck will be installed. SpyGlass was kind enough to point this out to me and I found that BH No. 9 was slightly raised for this. I would suggest that and sort of variation in alignment be corrected before beginning with fillers or you will end up doing double work.

 

This is my progress so far. for the record it really bothers me that the work looks so sloppy on the photos but in reality it isnt THAT bad and the shape seems decent. I think this will provide a solid base for planking and the somewhat messy appearance will not affect the final product at all. (for those that are interested the handsome fellow supervising progress is one of my 5 dogs, Cobra)