Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

Mike found the missing 5th section of his super close ups of "Glory of the Seas" at docked at San Francisco. What causes the wavy masts is beyond me. I post these right side up but they come out upside down. Go figure. He referred to this as an 1880 scene. In his book it's described as being 1877. Either way, there's no doubt it's the same image. 

It occurred to me too, that my damn math was off on calculation of Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port. For my calculations, I've been relying on a published dimension of 6 1/2 inches width per outer strake. Unfortunately I got 1/2 inches mixed up. Upon closest inspection, I now count 9 and a fraction strakes from her waterline to opening base. 9 × 6 1/2 inches = 54 inches + 4 1/2 inches for a total of 58 1/2 inches, with a portion of a strake visible above the white line, I estimate 5 feet. Docking Port side is 4 strakes × 6 1/2 inches = 24 inches + 2 × 1/2 inches = 25 inches or 2 feet, 1 inch. 7 strakes to bottom of Main Rail Molding are 7 × 6 1/2 inches = 42 inches + 7 × 1/2 inches = 3 1/2 inches, 45 1/2 inches or 3 feet 9 1/2 inches. Adding all 3 measurements gives 5 feet + 2 feet 1 inch + 3 feet 9 1/2 inches = 10 feet 10 1/2 inches. With 6 foot 6 inches bulwarks brings Glory's revised Docking Port height down from a previous estimate of 18 1/2 feet to 16 feet, 16 1/2 inches or 17 feet, 4 1/2 inches. 18 feet 6 inches minus 17 feet 4 1/2 inches is 1 foot 1 1/2 inches lower. Since the lowest point of her 7 foot sheer is around midway of her Main Shrouds, as best as I can see, that would be somewhat lower than 17 feet 4 1/2 inches....

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Hello everyone,

didnt have time yesterday......but started to aplly measures to the bulkheads...id say it would take some 10 working hours to complete so it wont be so soon....

 

i prolonged nameplate but its just sketch rather so please bear with me...letters somehow crippled, its starting to get pretty crowdy for my crappy computer though...letters are not properly placed just to get rough idea.

I didnt mean 7 in sheer Richard, its price for my worng expressing ..my bad sorry. i meant 7 in wide sheer plank or that fancy ribbon,....its tated in michaels book. imho, I think three ribbons conturing as lover strake of navalhood are all uniformly thick but if not we can reshape them no issue there its just detail...

 

another devil to open.I accepted.challenge quite dramatically intruded into Michaels work though.....im curious about your opinion...bow profile...

 

 

 

here is the widened nameplate and changed chocks position......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[ClipperFan]

11 minutes ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Hello everyone,

didnt have time yesterday......but started to aplly measures to the bulkheads...id say it would take some 10 working hours to complete so it wont be so soon....

 

i prolonged nameplate but its just sketch rather so please bear with me...letters somehow crippled, its starting to get pretty crowdy for my crappy computer though...letters are not properly placed just to get rough idea.

I didnt mean 7 in sheer Richard, its price for my worng expressing ..my bad sorry. i meant 7 in wide sheer plank or that fancy ribbon,....its tated in michaels book. imho, I think three ribbons conturing as lover strake of navalhood are all uniformly thick but if not we can reshape them no issue there its just detail...

 

another devil to open.I accepted.challenge quite dramatically intruded into Michaels work though.....im curious about your opinion...bow profile...

 

 

 

here is the widened nameplate and changed chocks position......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vladimir,

You probably won't like this but I just discovered a mistake I made in calculating Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port (rectangular hole in her side). I gave specific details in an earlier post this morning. Bottom line, she's  1' 1 & 1/2" lower than before. Her loading dock is 5' above the waterline, 25" high, probably 3' wide and she's 45 & 1/2" to the lower molding. 

This is going to mess up your Stern again but in reality it goes back to my suspicion that we've had her Stern too big anyways. Speaking of which, one other correction I noted was that the drop below the molding is just a little deeper than you have it. My estimation is about 3'.

I agree with your sleeker Bow profile, which appears to match the better overall scene of Glory I just got from Mike.

Meanwhile I took another look at Glory's nameplate. Now it appears your sign board has a little too much space. Just from eyeballing, it looks like the letters "SEA" match the distance between the "Y" of GLORY and "S" of SEAS. the "of the" all lowercase would fit in equidistant from those words. 

Druxey did a great job of getting Athene's right arm position corrected. I would plug in his new lady, replacing the older one.

Finally, with a better image of Glory in Seattle, the question of her Cutwater configuration and prow underwater still bugs me. It appears that the semicircular curve goes through both Bobstay mounts and doesn't straighten out until afterwards. Then her prow down to what's visible above the waterline doesn't appear to go down vertically but more of an angle slightly back.

British took the lines off the Blackball Clipper "Donald McKay" so this Hull is reliable. Disregard my conjectural pencil sketch of her rigging, topmast positions are reversed in error.

 

[druxey]

If I can add another 2c worth: I'm bothered by how far forward the tip of the sheer rail is . If you look at post #475 (page 15) and drop a vertical line from where the bowsprit and jibboom emerge down, it falls almost the length of the figure behind her feet. I'm not convinced that the profile above is quite there yet. Any comments, anyone?

[rwiederrich]

18 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

A few observations about the overall image of Glory in Seattle 1911. Her Cutwater circular curve goes through both Bobstay mounts and doesn't even straighten out until after going below them. Then her entrance appears to angle back more steeply than other images seem to imply. Her prow appears to be sharper too. Look at her waterline, she doesn't begin to fill out until after the quarterdeck, which signifies a much faster entrance then before. I'm curious as to your thoughts.

I thought the same thing.  First her copper line is much too high compared to her launching image.  This is probably indicative of her newly being surveyed and painted for canary service.

 

Secondly, as you mention she appears to have a much sharper entry then other images depict.  Perspective is everything I have to conclude.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

17 hours ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Careful about her waterline there in that picture. It looks to me like there's an overboard discharge of some sort just below and abaft the fluke of that stbd anchor. It seems to be splashing the hull. You can see the darker wet region just above the waterline forward of there but the hull is wet a little higher where the water is splashing into the harbour there. There's also wet hull darkness below the outlet trailing aft. Leads me to believe there may have been wind coming from ahead at some point shortly before that picture was taken. Also makes the shape of her waterline there a little tricky to see. 

Indeed.  she had several water recirculation and drain lines put it to service her internal canning machinery.  I concluded that the run-off simply followed the path of least resistance down and along her coppering.  Wind may have been a factor...hard to tell.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir,

You probably won't like this but I just discovered a mistake I made in calculating Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port (rectangular hole in her side). I gave specific details in an earlier post this morning. Bottom line, she's  1' 1 & 1/2" lower than before. Her loading dock is 5' above the waterline, 25" high, probably 3' wide and she's 45 & 1/2" to the lower molding. 

This is going to mess up your Stern again but in reality it goes back to my suspicion that we've had her Stern too big anyways. Speaking of which, one other correction I noted was that the drop below the molding is just a little deeper than you have it. My estimation is about 3'.

I agree with your sleeker Bow profile, which appears to match the better overall scene of Glory I just got from Mike.

Meanwhile I took another look at Glory's nameplate. Now it appears your sign board has a little too much space. Just from eyeballing, it looks like the letters "SEA" match the distance between the "Y" of GLORY and "S" of SEAS. the "of the" all lowercase would fit in equidistant from those words. 

Druxey did a great job of getting Athene's right arm position corrected. I would plug in his new lady, replacing the older one.

Finally, with a better image of Glory in Seattle, the question of her Cutwater configuration and prow underwater still bugs me. It appears that the semicircular curve goes through both Bobstay mounts and doesn't straighten out until afterwards. Then her prow down to what's visible above the waterline doesn't appear to go down vertically but more of an angle slightly back.

British took the lines off the Blackball Clipper "Donald McKay" so this Hull is reliable. Disregard my conjectural pencil sketch of her rigging, topmast positions are reversed in error.

 

Thanks Richard, hmm thankfully i kept also 1 ft lowered verison as well. its ok i will try to accomodate 3' downmold profile too and Druxey hand as well. 

i almost fainted yesterday as all hulkheads mixed up...i spent two hours to save them to original form.... started to be little too much at this point i have to slow down and go slowly and steadily. as for bow adjustments, i will than little recenter 2 nd bulkhead curve following curves right between 1 and 3 - bulkheads  - and it will shape that steady stepness of  profile - it was pushed way more towards 3 rd if you look back where bulkheads are posted...the way making mora drasric curve right from the start....gosh will this end some day? thsnkfully evenings up late are still rainy and cold....

its all very slow process because i have to magnify lines to set measure tool, mark move lines delete close lines , again and again...but looking back  - this is already  just twaeeaking ....

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, druxey said:

If I can add another 2c worth: I'm bothered by how far forward the tip of the sheer rail is . If you look at post #475 (page 15) and drop a vertical line from where the bowsprit and jibboom emerge down, it falls almost the length of the figure behind her feet. I'm not convinced that the profile above is quite there yet. Any comments, anyone?

Druxey,

I just want to be sure I understand you. The profile above that I shared earlier is that of another much larger vessel the "Donald McKay" 260' between perpendiculars, 2,488 tons vs "Glory of the Seas" 250' between perpendiculars, 2,102 tons. I shared this image because its recorded as being accurate, since British took the lines off her while she was in Dry Dock. My point is that this vessel, which has a more subdued bow profile has a far less verticle entrance than what we're estimating for Glory.

However, if you're referring to the 1911 Seattle refit of Glory, the smashed upper Bulwarks appear to have shoved some of her upper moldings forward, marring her appearance but not affecting her sea worthiness.

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I thought the same thing.  First her copper line is much too high compared to her launching image.  This is probably indicative of her newly being surveyed and painted for canary service.

 

Secondly, as you mention she appears to have a much sharper entry then other images depict.  Perspective is everything I have to conclude.

 

Rob

Rob,

If you look at the more assertive profile of the "Donald McKay" I believe it will help us reassess "Glory of the Seas" more accurately while dispelling perspective bias clouding our perceptions. I'm not saying her entrance was as aggressive as the "M'Kay" but it does appear her profile below the waterline was inclined back more than our current illustrations show.

As for her higher copper line, this is most likely in anticipation of heavy equipment installed to support her work as a factory salmon cannery ship.

[rwiederrich]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:33 AM, ClipperFan said:

Mike found the missing 5th section of his super close ups of "Glory of the Seas" at docked at San Francisco. What causes the wavy masts is beyond me. I post these right side up but they come out upside down. Go figure. He referred to this as an 1880 scene. In his book it's described as being 1877. Either way, there's no doubt it's the same image. 

It occurred to me too, that my damn math was off on calculation of Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port. For my calculations, I've been relying on a published dimension of 6 1/2 inches width per outer strake. Unfortunately I got 1/2 inches mixed up. Upon closest inspection, I now count 9 and a fraction strakes from her waterline to opening base. 9 × 6 1/2 inches = 54 inches + 4 1/2 inches for a total of 58 1/2 inches, with a portion of a strake visible above the white line, I estimate 5 feet. Docking Port side is 4 strakes × 6 1/2 inches = 24 inches + 2 × 1/2 inches = 25 inches or 2 feet, 1 inch. 7 strakes to bottom of Main Rail Molding are 7 × 6 1/2 inches = 42 inches + 7 × 1/2 inches = 3 1/2 inches, 45 1/2 inches or 3 feet 9 1/2 inches. Adding all 3 measurements gives 5 feet + 2 feet 1 inch + 3 feet 9 1/2 inches = 10 feet 10 1/2 inches. With 6 foot 6 inches bulwarks brings Glory's revised Docking Port height down from a previous estimate of 18 1/2 feet to 16 feet, 16 1/2 inches or 17 feet, 4 1/2 inches. 18 feet 6 inches minus 17 feet 4 1/2 inches is 1 foot 1 1/2 inches lower. Since the lowest point of her 7 foot sheer is around midway of her Main Shrouds, as best as I can see, that would be somewhat lower than 17 feet 4 1/2 inches....

 

I inverted these...put them together and now have a very large image of the Gory when she was just several years old.

 

I just can't get over how her sheere is so pronounced in this image.  Did you say it was 7ft from mid sheer(around her main shrouds)?

 

Impressive.  I will surely use this new compilation of images when I build my version...so much data.

 

Rob 

[Sailor1234567890]

Rob, would you mind putting that composite image up here for us? I can't wrap my head around the upside downness of it all. LOL

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

 

I inverted these...put them together and now have a very large image of the Gory when she was just several years old.

 

I just can't get over how her sheere is so pronounced in this image.  Did you say it was 7ft from mid sheer(around her main shrouds)?

 

Impressive.  I will surely use this new compilation of images when I build my version...so much data.

 

Rob 

Rob,

A few posts back I shared a page which confirms Glory's sheer was indeed seven feet. From this beautiful 1877 Glory docked at San Francisco scene, her lovely sheer is clearly evident. This is the same image that reveals her impressively lofty rig as well. I agree with Sailor, please share your stitched together scene with our group.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Rob, would you mind putting that composite image up here for us? I can't wrap my head around the upside downness of it all. LOL

Sailor,

I sympathize with your verklempft reaction to pictures I share from Michael Mjelde. It's as if they're being transmitted from OZ (Downunder, not the Emerald City)! Try as I might and believe me I've made multiple attempts, images that arrive in my email stubbornly remain upside down. I figure the group would prefer to receive these glorious highly detailed prints upside down than not at all. Mike has told me made these images directly from original negatives of over 40 years ago. Since my own printer hasn't worked for years I've been going to Staples. For 15c a standard page, I've emailed them directly to: staples@printme.com where I've been able to make my own copies. You can print Legal 16c up to Ledger size 24c. They even offer beautiful color too: Standard 55c, Ledger .90c

[druxey]

ClipperFan: I'm comparing Vladimir's profile of her headwork (post #662) to the almost profile photo of her figure that I worked from.

[ClipperFan]

25 minutes ago, druxey said:

ClipperFan: I'm comparing Vladimir's profile of her headwork (post #662) to the almost profile photo of her figure that I worked from.

Druxey,

My suggestion to Vladimir was to replace your older Athene with the more refined version in post #643. About the best tracing of Mike's excellent extra sharp closeup in post #547, is the center image in post #564. However, the section above the anchor hawse hole cants inward, not exactly verticle. I refer to a line that exits the first notch, crosses over the "E" in SEAS and perfectly outlines that leading edge of the Naval Hood. Look very closely, the triple moldings at the lower edge of her Naval Hood aren't verticle either. They each are a little shorter than the one below, aligning with that beveled edge. 

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Rob, would you mind putting that composite image up here for us? I can't wrap my head around the upside downness of it all. LOL

The image is so large I can't fit it all exactly in the frame..but here are several images.

 

It is clear she had an extensive sheere.   Remembering that the distance from the monkey rail from the top of the hood is 6ft and the top of the hood is the planksheer or deck level.  Projecting that back and along the the planksheer to the mid main shrouds lets you figure the elevation of the sheer based on a projected horizontal.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

I noted that the center of the forward bit is 9ft from the beak of the monkey rail.  This can only be derived from this port image...since the clear, up close image of her refitting shows damage to this portion and is unreliable for measuring.  This should help Vladimir with his location of the bits and name board.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Edited March 25, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
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[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Vladimir,

You always do such nice clean work. I am continually impressed. My only critique is that the fat, leading edge is not verticle. It inclines at a slight degree forward, to follow contours of Glory's flaring Hull. Top of the leading edge appears to align directly with the left side of the notch above while botton appears to line up with the center of that same forward, 1st notch. 

My tracing pad finally arrived, so I will make so tracings of Glory to be exhaustively precise.

Edited March 25, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir,

You always do such nice clean work. I am continually impressed. My only critique is that the fat, leading edge is not verticle. It inclines at a slight degree forward, to follow contours of Glory's flaring Hull. Top of the leading edge appears to align directly with the left side of the notch above while botton appears to line up with the center of that same forward, 1st notch. 

My tracing pad finally arrived, so I will make so tracings of Glory to be exhaustively precise.

Oh yes i will angle correct that, i know what you mean thanks. i will try to fit  Druxey figurehead hand with drapery double line detail over weekend  and hopefuly few more hull parts like deadeyes channels...

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Oh yes i will angle correct that, i know what you mean thanks. i will try to fit  Druxey figurehead hand with drapery double line detail over weekend  and hopefuly few more hull parts like deadeyes channels...

Vladimir,

Druxey's revised figurehead will fit right in. All he did was revise Athene's right hand to match contours of her hand and upper shoulder. One final observation of the Naval Hood. Three equal moldings trim the bottom while two continue from the Hull to trim the upper side. The three below terminate at the outer end the two above go completely around to the other side. 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

22 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir,

Druxey's revised figurehead will fit right in. All he did was revise Athene's right hand to match contours of her hand and upper shoulder. One final observation of the Naval Hood. Three equal moldings trim the bottom while two continue from the Hull to trim the upper side. The three below terminate at the outer end the two above go completely around to the other side. 

Yes - and we have it correct on the drawing i hope i posted those pictures.  .  v. 

[ClipperFan]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:44 PM, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Yes - and we have it correct on the drawing i hope i posted those pictures.  .  v. 

Vladimir,

Probably the only picture of Glory which reveals the true location of her anchor stock catheads and gives an accurate idea of their dimensions. They're located completely under her fore quarterdeck caprail. They fit entirely within her 18" high monkeyrail. Cathead width can be calculated by comparing it to height, my best estimate is 8-9". Distance from first notch to second notch looks to be 5' and about 4' to the cathead. That would make the cathead's distance about 18' from the point of the quarterdeck caprail where they join just above the Jibboom entrance. As usual, Rob can double check and either verify or adjust my estimates.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

I edited out the extraneous details and sent these 3 images to Michael Mjelde. He said you did a great job combining these into one picture. He eventually plans to send the overall 1877 scene. 

I also requested the picture of Glory being towed to Alaska in order to get a more clear view of her fascinating stern. 

[rwiederrich]

Several things:  As we know the rail is 6ft from the top of the naval hood... The first fairlead fitting(notch) in the rail is 9ft from the rail beak or at its origination at the jibboom.  There is 6ft between centers of the forward and aft fairlead fittings and from my calculations...4 ft to the center of the cathead timber from the center of the aft fairlead fitting.  We are very close Rich.  However I validated my measurements against the known 7.5ft of the figurehead...just to make sure.

I verified the forward fairlead fitting distance from the jibboom by using the San Francisco image.

 

Rob

Edited March 29, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

I edited out the extraneous details and sent these 3 images to Michael Mjelde. He said you did a great job combining these into one picture. He eventually plans to send the overall 1877 scene. 

I also requested the picture of Glory being towed to Alaska in order to get a more clear view of her fascinating stern. 

Thanks for removing the #9.5's

Hey from this image she is looking a lot more like the Henry B. Hyde(A downEaster)...when you follow her copper line as she was designed just below her outer bobstay

[rwiederrich]

If you removed the naval hood and the scroll work/figurehead...it's pretty close comparison even though the Hyde has a bit more sheere aft the main mast.  That girl sat low in the water when she was loaded and trim.

 

Rob

Edited March 29, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

38 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Several things:  As we know the rail is 6ft from the top of the naval hood... The first howse fitting(notch) in the rail is 9ft from the rail beak or at its origination at the jibboom.  There is 6ft between centers of the forward and aft howse fittings and from my calculations...4 ft to the center of the cathead timber from the center of the aft howse fitting.  We are very close Rich.  However I validated my measurements against the known 7.5ft of the figurehead...just to make sure.

I verified the forward howse fitting distance from the jibboom by using the San Francisco image.

 

Rob

Rob,

My "eyeball" guesstimate was 18'. If I read your calculations correctly, I was off by 1'. 9' from point above Jibboom to center of 1st notch, 6' from center of 1st to 2nd notch and 4' to cathead center, equaling 19' in total. I'm still wondering about her bulwark height though. Has the damaged Bulwark brought your estimate down. I've read most of McKay's Clippers had 5' Main Rails, typically topped by 18" monkey rail for a total of 6 1/2'. Mike said he spoke with crew who were 6' tall and served on Glory. They told him standing by the bulwark, they could not see over the top. That's what leads me to believe her Bulwarks were over 6'. Your thoughts?

[ClipperFan]

Here's the 1854 Black Ball Clipper "Champion of the Seas" at the time she was launched, she was the largest Merchant ship in the world. She was 2,447 tons, 238' keel. 252' on deck between perpendiculars. Since her stern post was verticle, her stem projected out 14'. From this contemporary daguerrotype, you'd be hard pressed to believe that. While Glory's sheer was 7' this vessel's was a much more modest 4 1/2'. Glory was very similar in dimensions, being 250' between perpendiculars on deck but was significantly smaller at 2102 tons.  There's a very detailed description of Champion from the May 20, 1854 Boston Daily Atlas, on Lars Bruzelius' site. 

As for Glory's Bow I'm now much more inclined to believe she looked very similar to the "Henry B Hyde" but with less dramatic sheer. 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

6 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir,

Probably the only picture of Glory which reveals the true location of her anchor stock catheads and gives an accurate idea of their dimensions. They're located completely under her fore quarterdeck caprail. They fit entirely within her 18" high monkeyrail. Cathead width can be calculated by comparing it to height, my best estimate is 8-9". Distance from first notch to second notch looks to be 5' and about 4' to the cathead. That would make the cathead's distance about 18' from the point of the quarterdeck caprail where they join just above the Jibboom entrance. As usual, Rob can double check and either verify or adjust my estimates.

Whoa this is magnificent look at her from the very rare straight low position . Thanks for cathead calculation Richard i will accomodate those. V.