Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[rwiederrich]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:11 PM, ClipperFan said:

Pat, this is fascinating. Would that mean that most likely all 3 of Glory's stays would have been secured like this? The unknown component has an intriguing trapezoidal shape, would that be the stayplate/padeye you're referring to?

Information update:
 

 

I’ve concluded that there is far too much jury rigging going on that many of these items cannot be accurately identified.   Because what is known as common practice cannot be disregarded in lieu of some unknown speculation. 
 

In my research it has been made evidently clear that even during her useful life span she  sported many rigging configurations. Possibly due to her captains preferences and or downgrades.    
 

Since I’ve begun my rigging I’ve already noticed errors I have made.   Errors that cannot be corrected. Nothing significant but errors depicting different time frames of her life.   I know them, but I will not reveal them, because doing so changes nothing about her true dimensions, nor the true complexity of her rigging.

 

It just means I need to be more diligent.

 

One item that is depicted differently in many sources, including Mike’s original drawings is the true placement of the main and topsail braces and of their “sister blocks”.    Glory had no open deck winches other then the main winch in her main deck house……. So blocks did all the work.  
 

Pouring over image after image, I’ve recreated the brace configuration I’m going to use…….irregardless of what might have been depicted in as many paintings and even by Mike’s own hand. I’m going to use Mike’s wonderful drawings coupled with other sources.  
 

Glory in her long useful life, sported many rig designs, so to pick the most logical at the time I’m modeling her is what I will try to attempt.  What can anyone expect.   
 

Rob

Edited May 29, 2022 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

No Problem Pat. 
 

However in Glory’s case,   Several pics show her with double fore stays and others with a single.  She had her masts replaced several times and probably had her stays up or down graded.  Her 1877 image I’m replicating, she had a single fore stay, probably seized double that split at the Pad eyes on deck.  Probably because she had a composite fore mast. Not sure.  The main mast stay was a double seized and then split at the foremast fife bit. 
 

Rob

Edited May 29, 2022 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Clipperfan, I think that the use of padeyes for all stays is a reasonable assumption but I know that in "Victoria" they did not set-up the mizen stays that way - they were set-up with large tackles.  However, the bottom block was probably set-up to a padeye anyway.  I think this was done to allow the respective stay to be slackened off when the main fore-and-aft sail boom was swung hard to either side (and also possibly used as a derrick to set up the accommodation ladder). In later photographs they overcame this by leading the stays further forward and probably set them up to padeyes.

 

The padeye is the arrowed fitting - still trying to work out what the other might be,  but possibly another padeye (but as big one )  .  Some (doubled) forestays were laced together to a height above deck where they then split and went to either side - this may be an example but the separating point appears too low to be practical.  Still pondering on this, but it is possible we are seeing a padeye with large solid thimble as shown by Underhill (Masting and Rigging of the Clipper Ship and Ocean Transport - Fig 91).  I am reasonably convinced this was the set-up in "Victoria" (1855) as she used wire rope for the stays.  She also did not use the laced forestays as she used the p[ort side stay as the staysail stay.  Hope this helps?  Sorry again Rob, can take this to a private discussion of preferred?

 

cheers

Pat

Pat, My sense is that, since we're discussing a component that is clearly visible on the latest image of Glory of the Seas supplied by Mike, we're not too far off topic for Rob's tolerance. The sketch you shared is fascinating. I've been on several large three masted sailing ships and have seen something similar but really didn't pay much attention. The illustration shows a substantial metal anchor point in the deck, then two oval-arrow shaped metal devices with a central axis implying a large roller block. My guess is the leather acts like an insulation of sorts to prevent friction chafing. Having the stay line doubled with lacing would greatly reinforce the strength of these critical lines. After all these anchor points are critical to the safety of massive lower masts. Thanks for clarifying this complex structure.

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Information update:
 

 

I’ve concluded that there is far too much jury rigging going on that many of these items cannot be accurately identified.   Because what is known as common practice cannot be disregarded in lieu of some unknown speculation. 
 

In my research it has been made evidently clear that even during her useful life span she  sported many rigging configurations. Possibly due to her captains preferences and or downgrades.    
 

Since I’ve begun my rigging I’ve already noticed errors I have made.   Errors that cannot be corrected. Nothing significant but errors depicting different time frames of her life.   I know them, but I will not reveal them, because doing so changes nothing about her true dimensions, nor the true complexity of her rigging.

 

It just means I need to be more diligent.

 

One item that is depicted differently in many sources, including Mike’s original drawings is the true placement of the main and topsail braces and of their “sister blocks”.    Glory had no open deck winches other then the main winch in her main deck house……. So blocks did all the work.  
 

Pouring over image after image, I’ve recreated the brace configuration I’m going to use…….irregardless of what might have been depicted in as many paintings and even by Mike’s own hand. I’m going to use Mike’s wonderful drawings coupled with other sources.  
 

Glory in her long useful life, sported many rig designs, so to pick the most logical at the time I’m modeling her is what I will try to attempt.  What can anyone expect.   
 

Rob

Rob,

At the level of expertise that you clearly are working at, I'm pretty sure the 'errors' you're discovering are only noticeable by one individual. That's you. As for the rest of us, we're just following along in awe as McKay's long lost Clipper comes to life before our wondering eyes.

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

At the level of expertise that you clearly are working at, I'm pretty sure the 'errors' you're discovering are only noticeable by one individual. That's you. As for the rest of us, we're just following along in awe as McKay's long lost Clipper comes to life before our wondering eyes.

Thanks Rich.  
To be honest, I am quite hard on myself……because as much as I do my research, I am not as apt or diligent to accurately translate that research into reality.  In short, there is so much detail, I actually overlook some in my haste to reach completion .

 

Some model shipwrights exclude certain details to reduce the clutter, or omit entire systems to make their construction easier, (cuz it can get so busy down there), it becomes impossible to even complete the work cleanly and accurately.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks Rich.  
To be honest, I am quite hard on myself……because as much as I do my research, I am not as apt or diligent to accurately translate that research into reality.  In short, there is so much detail, I actually overlook some in my haste to reach completion .

 

Some model shipwrights exclude certain details to reduce the clutter, or omit entire systems to make their construction easier, (cuz it can get so busy down there), it becomes impossible to even complete the work cleanly and accurately.

 

Rob

Rob, I've learned from personal experience that it's the truly great artisans and artists who are the hardest on themselves. As for taking shortcuts or even (gasp) omitting entire systems, I know you well enough to know you won't take that route either. Since you're following a specific system, you might want to document your own final belaying points so that you can at least duplicate your own work for all three masts. Regardless, what I really appreciate seeing is the complex latticework of the myriad lines and comprehending the logic behind apparent mayhem. Good luck!

[BANYAN]

Hi Rich, I hope the following photo of the same type fitting (as my previous Underhill Illustration) taken aboard the SS Great Britain that I took while visiting Bristol, UK a couple of years back, although not showing the padeye, at least shows they were used in this era.  The photo is a crop of the spiderband on the mast which is why the whole fitting is not shown.  In this instance (and in the Victoria) used with a screw, but also could be used with a stay turned on a thimble as per previous illustration.

I also agree with Rob's summation - with the many different methods employed during this period depending on the builder, purchaser and/or Captain, many differing methods could have been employed.  But Underhill is at pains to state that usually, if one method is employed for one item, it was usually used throughout the ship.  So whichever way you decide to go, there should be no issues.

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Mike has come through for us yet again. Per your specific request, here's the image of Glory of the Seas being dismantled in 1922. Mike scans these amazing images and attaches them as e-mails. They arrive with some white space surrounding the image. To maximize the image, white space has been cropped out and the image has been rotated for better viewing. The picture itself is left entirely intact.

[rwiederrich]

Those poor misguided workers just ripped through her forward chainplate , channel and gunwale to remove equipment from her decks.  Poor old girl.

 

Thanks Rich and thanks Mike.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

35 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Those poor misguided workers ju

st ripped through her forward chainplate , channel and gunwale to remove equipment from her decks.  Poor old girl.

 

Thanks Rich and thanks Mike.

 

Rob

Rob, 

Sadly America has never seemed to put much value to what we now consider priceless items. Consider the abysmal fate of the historic Yacht America. Launched in the 1850s, after setting the mark to win the 100 Guineas Cup, which has forever now been known as the America's Cup, she survived being a Confederate Blockade Runner as well as a Union Blockade enforcer during the Civil War. While the US Navy had ultimately planned to restore her, they left her poorly protected. As a result, a damn snowstorm collapsed the shed she was resting in and she became a total loss in the 1940s, when she was 90 years old.

This disgraceful history of benign neglect continues to thi day. Back in the 60s, I used to love to watch Hawaii 5-0. Not only did it feature one of my favorite Montague Dawson works of art The Ariel and Taeping very often a wonderful fully restored 4 masted sailing ship the Falls of Clyde featured as a constant backdrop.

Fast forward to today and that same magnificent steel ship is so neglected, she's in danger of sinking...

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

I used to love to watch Hawaii 5-0. Not only did it feature one of my favorite Montague Dawson works of art The Ariel and Taeping very often a wonderful fully restored 4 masted sailing ship the Falls of Clyde featured as a constant backdrop.

Fast forward to today and that same magnificent steel ship is so neglected, she's in danger of sinking...

I recall that as well.  It appears that the only history, folks of today want to preserve, is  that known as  *Re-written* history.  They tare down historical monuments...neglect our maritime history in lieu of a hateful agenda.

And to let you know,...that Montaque Dawson painting is one of my favorites  as well.  And he is one of my favorite nautical artists to boot.

I'm doing my own small part in preserving a significant historical element....be it in model form.

 

I'm still wondering if any of the Seattle/Tacoma nautical museums would be interested in Glory when she is complete....since she lived her last decade running the West coast trades and frequented Seattle/Tacoma to Alaska ports?

I'll need to do more research into that question.  I wonder if Mike knows folks who may have that answer.... his own exhaustive photographic catalogue coupled with my model....would make a great exhibit in of itself....in a museum setting.

 

Rob

Edited May 31, 2022 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

Sovereign of the Seas rig is extremely close to that of Glory....Cept for the addition of the spreaders...which Glory had originally. 

 

[druxey]

Despite misuse and neglect, the 1922 photo shows how well constructed she was. Most ships would have hogged badly over time. Her sheer still looks good.

[ClipperFan]

32 minutes ago, druxey said:

Despite misuse and neglect, the 1922 photo shows how well constructed she was. Most ships would have hogged badly over time. Her sheer still looks good.

Druxey,

Considering that her hull was 53 years old by this point, I'm amazed the owners, not to mention dismantling crew, felt sanguine enough to carve so many large holes in her upper superstructure! You would think that they would have been concerned that such reckless activity might cause her to buckle and sink. Remember, she still had all that weighty factory refrigerator processing equipment aboard too. Since obviously that didn't happen, it's a real tribute to the long lasting durability of her design, materials and construction.

This also makes me wonder, what if? What if those Boston magnates who held the final fate of Glory of the Seas in their hands had decided "let's go for it!" Let's take on the challenge and tow her home to be restored in Boston! If she makes it, we've saved Donald McKay's last Clipper. If she doesn't, then the seas have taken her to her final grave"....

Had they given poor, old faithful Glory her final chance to survive, I for one firmly belive she would have made it.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

Rob and Vladimir,

Please post direct bird's-eye views of your Glory of the Seas forecastle to the front two-thirds of her great house. Here's my conjectural sketch, incorporating Vladimir's two red lines revising Mike's 1992 deck view from his general arrangement. Before sending it to Mike, I want to verify the accuracy of my interpretation. 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, 

Here's where I'm at with Glory's revised 8.3 degree stem below the waterline. I have to admit that this appears to be much closer to the one scene we have of her in the Spokane Grain Co. dock which shows her somewhat aggressive prow. Both illustrations are to the same 1:96th scale per Mike's request.

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Sovereign of the Seas rig is extremely close to that of Glory....Cept for the addition of the spreaders...which Glory had originally. 

 

Rob,

Nice pic of one of Donald McKay's fastest Clipper Ships. She was very close in size to Glory of the Seas too.

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob and Vladimir,

Please post direct bird's-eye views of your Glory of the Seas forecastle to the front two-thirds of her great house. Here's my conjectural sketch, incorporating Vladimir's two red lines revising Mike's 1992 deck view from his general arrangement. Before sending it to Mike, I want to verify the accuracy of my interpretation. 

Beautiful Rich.  I placed the bit slightly farther forward then you have depicted here……..but no problem.  Lots of room for entry and exit off the forward hatchway.  
Super!

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Nice pic of one of Donald McKay's fastest Clipper Ships. She was very close in size to Glory of the Seas too.

That is why I posted her…… If McKay did anything he followed what worked in one of his fastest clippers. 
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, 

Here's where I'm at with Glory's revised 8.3 degree stem below the waterline. I have to admit that this appears to be much closer to the one scene we have of her in the Spokane Grain Co. dock which shows her somewhat aggressive prow. Both illustrations are to the same 1:96th scale per Mike's request.

Rich……..you hit the nail on the head.   This looks exactly how I see her. 
 

Beautiful work 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:08 PM, rwiederrich said:

Beautiful Rich.  I placed the bit slightly farther forward then you have depicted here……..but no problem.  Lots of room for entry and exit off the forward hatchway.  
Super!

 

Rob

Rob,

Thanks for the encouraging words. My placement of the bit matches exactly that of Mike's, which I figured matched the exact end of the inner end of the bowsprit. My other concern is placement of the capstan. There was no specifics of that location, so mine matches the side view placement of my large sketch. If you have exact dimensions for that device, I can reposition it in both sketches.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Thanks for the encouraging words. My placement of the bit matches exactly that of Mike's, which I figured matched the exact end of the inner end of the bowsprit. My other concern is placement of the capstan. There was no specifics of that location, so mine matches the side view placement of my large sketch. If you have exact dimensions for that device, I can reposition it in both sketches.

No...no specifics.  I opted to use dead reckoning.........and visuals.  Those items are so *iffy*, but if you use your head and determine from other ships...you can make a pretty close proximation.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Spent some time finishing up the rat lines and  belaying bunt lines and adding rope coils.   Lots of little details.   Soo soo much more to do.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

As the complex rigging of your miniature becomes ever more complete, it strikes me how critically important it would have been on these massive sailing vessels to be sure none of the lines get tangled up with any others, or there must have been hell to pay! I constantly find myself running out of superlatives to describe your progress. Impressive, most impressive!

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

As the complex rigging of your miniature becomes ever more complete, it strikes me how critically important it would have been on these massive sailing vessels to be sure none of the lines get tangled up with any others, or there must have been hell to pay! I constantly find myself running out of superlatives to describe your progress. Impressive, most impressive!

Indeed, the miniature nature of our models makes tanglement of lines more difficult, do to the difficulty of viewing the issue from the deck up.  Sometimes my vision goes wonky and I see weird depth phenomenon. 
 

Thanks as always.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Hi Rob, 

I hear you about that distracting phenomenon. I recall having similar challenges with much smaller sailing ships. They had woefully inadequate, painfully simplistic rigging instructions, just your very basic standing, running rigging with preformed rubberlike ratlines. So we innovated quite a lot to approach as much realism possible. I remember making teenie blocks of knotted black thread. At the scale they were, these were quite realistic. In our case we simply worked from inside out and fore to aft from lowest to highest yards. I have no clue how you're designing your lines but I recall that by staying consistent, things seemed to flow better. Of course, you already built and fully rigged the King of Donald McKay's Clipper Ships with your scratch built masterpiece, the Great Republic. So I'm very confident, you got this.  

[rwiederrich]

Worked on finishing the port bunt line fairleads and belaying of the lines.   
 

Sweewww.    What a web. 
 

Rope coils will follow. 
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Couple extra images from the flipped models stern. 
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Yes… the GR was much smaller in scale, 1/128…….but because of her size she is still longer then Glory is at 1/96.   Man GR was. Handful to rig.  I left off no detail.   I’m hoping to do the same or near the same with Glory.  
 

Rob

[druxey]

Looking fabulous. Belaying those lines must be tricky in those confined spaces.