USS Constitution by Avi - BlueJacket Shipcrafters - 1:96

[Avi]

The camber of the gundeck was too extreme, but in some places the edges by the bulwarks were too low for the ports. It wasn’t just the angle of the guns, but the height of the gun itself. 
 

Then I remembered that I had both the scribed decking that came with the kit, and glued up decking that I ordered. 
 

I used a plane to flatten out the camber, leaving it much more subtle, and then sanded it to a reasonable smoothness. I didn’t need too high a grit, since it will be covered by the decking, just enough to make it smooth and even, started with 80, then 120, then 220, which was plenty. 
 

When I’m ready to do the deck, I’ll lay down the original scribed decking first, then the glued up on top, which should elevate it to the right height. I’ll measure and cut many times first, of course. But that’s much later.

 

The guide has the gundeck and spardeck before the coppering, but since I need to invert the ship to copper, it’s *much* easier to do that first. So we shall. 
 

I will reread the excellent assistance recommendations above, and the get started over the coming weeks. 
 

 

[Avi]

I’m about to start coppering. I spent quite some time yesterday evening rereading the posts and descriptions by @JSGerson and @ERS Rich, as well as both the MS and BJ directions and blueprints, and Marquardt. I’m fairly confident I understand it now (if not quite in my ability to execute, but that’s the story of building a model like this, learning anew at each step). So many thanks to both of you, as well as others who stepped in. 
 

One last minute decision is whether to put down a layer of thin CA on top of the area to be coppered, ie where I planked and then painted copper (primed two coats, copper paint two coats, light sand in between, 4000 grit lightly on the final coat). 
 

The guide recommends it, as did @MrBlueJacket. I like the idea, especially as it’s planked and could even the minor gaps (although maybe thick CA there would be better). I’m not sure how well thin CA and just copper plates (ie without a whole coat) would hold to the painted surface, vs how well I actually can apply an even coat of thin CA across the entire below-the-waterline section of the hull. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Avi

[Avi]

First sheets of copper in place. About 22 on each side of the keel. It looks nice. 
 

I’m not enamoured of how the overlap part sticks outwards a bit. It feels like it will get pushed gently by a finger and come off. 
 

Also the “put a drop use the capillary effect” did not work at all. I’m sure it’s my technique, but it didn’t work. I ended up putting a flat thin surface (think like a wide needle or very narrow knife blade) into the thin CA and then using the flat surface to spread it across the back of the copper sheet. 

[JSGerson]

I too had these issues with the copper plating. If I were to do it over again, I would have applies a couple more coats of polyurethane on the hull to make it as smooth and glass-like finish as possible. Embossing the surface of the copper tape to simulate nail dimples reduces the contact area of the tape somewhat so it needs that extra smooth surface for adhesion.. 

 

I made a CA applicator out of a medium sized sewing needle by cutting off the end of the eye creating a two prong fork. I then added a long thin wooden handle by drilling a hole into a piece of wood and inserting the point of the needle into it. I didn't glue it, but just pushed it in hard. This allowed me to switch out the needle with a new one when needed. Cleaning the open eye is done with a butane cigarette lighter. The excess CA burns off real quick.

 

I had to constantly apply CA glue to various areas of copper plating over the course of its installation as it took time for the weak adhering plates to reveal themselves. It was a pain to constantly do this. In the end, I got the effect I wanted.

 

Jon

[ERS Rich]

Never done this…..looks tough….

 

Perhaps dry fit the plate first.  Use the side of a tooth pick to burnish the overlap area.  

 

Once you like the fit, glue it…..

 

I’d consider filling in the imperfections between the planks with plastic wood applied with an Xacto spade blade.  Give a bit more surface area.

 

Next time, for a smooth surface, Gesso is a possibility. Artists use it to prep canvas for painting, it’s acrylic with a binder, water soluble, and easy to work with.

 

Wonder about applying another coat of anything at this point - over paint.  Make sure the choice is compatible with the
paint.

 

Persevere, you’re on the learning curve….

 

-Rich

[ERS Rich]

PS: make sure the Gesso is sandable….

[Avi]

@ERS Rich “burnish”? Do you mean to dry fit it and use the toothpick to shape the plate a bit? So it fits on precisely? That’s an idea worth trying.
 

the surface itself is plenty smooth. I’ve got the last coat of paint, it was sanded down with 2000 (if I recall correctly), and I even put a coat of CA on. Almost like plastic. And I know CA will attach very well to CA. 
 

@JSGerson yeah that’s exactly it. Mind, I don’t have the tape, but rather the individual plates provided by BJ. I’ll admit it’s a major pain cutting them out, but at least they have the dimpling on one side and smooth on the other, so that’s not an issue.

 

I was so excited to start coppering finally, but didn’t quite expect it to be this tedious. Ah well. As @ERS Rich said, “persevere”. 😄 

 

I do wonder how long they can stay open to the air before they start to oxidize. I’ve got museum wax to cover it all, which prevents that, but I obviously cannot apply until all the copper is done. 

[Avi]

Forgot to ask @JSGerson; how did you use the applicator? Most applicators, like the glue loop (the needle one you constructed is very similar), use some form of capillary effect. It is great to get a single shot of glue, but I found it very hard to work with to get onto a whole surface like the back of a copper plate. 

[ERS Rich]

Hi Avi,

 

Burnish is a fancy word for pressing down.  Place the plate without glue, then press down with your fingers and shape it.  Hold it down with one finger then use the side or point of the toothpick to press in the overlap with the previous plate.  
 

Try applying glue with toothpicks - the universal applicator.  Cut a square of wax paper, and put a little pile of glue on it.   Use the toothpick point to apply dots, and the side as a trowel.  I use alot of toothpicks.

 

If a plate is curled after drying, use the toothpick point and push in glue under the curl, then push down the curl and hold until the glue dries.  If glue squeezes out while holding, with your other hand roll the side of a dry toothpick along the line to clean it up - while still holding down with the first pick.  

 

Try to establish an order of steps to install a plate, say dry fit and shape, apply glue to plate, install plate and hold down, clean excess glue while holding down, wait for glue to dry.  Then repeat the same steps.  After a while you’ll get into a rhythm.   

 

Like anything else new, start slow, figure out what works, after a awhile it get’s easier.  Defects are less visible on the bottom.  You’ll get better as you work towards the waterline.

 

And take breaks, sometimes I’ll jump ahead to something else, then back to the longer job.

 

This is a big job but worth it.

 

Have a good one,

 

-Rich

 

[Avi]

Thanks @ERS Rich!

 

I had been using an older glue looper. Side of it is flat, so great for spreading. I hadn't put dots in a a few places, but rather a line, then the side as a trowel, so I have a very thin layer across the whole back, except at the very edges, where it spreads a bit (but not out). When it is too build up, light it on fire, it burns out, ready to use again.

 

Your directions and suggestions are really worthwhile. I hope to do another 30-40 plates tomorrow.

[ERS Rich]

48 minutes ago, Avi said:

light it on fire,

? 🤔

[Avi]

3 minutes ago, ERS Rich said:

? 🤔

Yup, little trick from @MrBlueJacket. CA is flammable. Metal is not. Use metal, when you need to, just burn it off, cool, wipe clean, reuse.

[JSGerson]

Basically, the same technique ERS Rich's tooth picks. The wicking depends on the plate to hull gap size and the amount of glue on the applicator. The narrower the gap, the strong the capillary action.

 

Jon

[ERS Rich]

Is the flame/heat eliminating the glue under the plate edge?  
 

Interesting, in the photo, the same aft  plate edges are lifted.

 

Thanks

[Avi]

Oh! I think we interpreted "it" very differently. When "it builds up" means "builds up too much on the glue tool (needle, glue looper, trowel, etc.). I am not lighting the copper plate.

 

> Interesting, in the photo, the same aft plate edges are lifted.

 

What do you mean?

 

I had several plates (5-7) come off today, had to redo them. Did another 20-30 or so, finished the keel on both sides, started second strake on starboard side. I think I might try the medium thickness CA glue next time. I had much better luck with it when doing planking.

 

I was working with the thin glue today, didn't realize where some had dripped. Lifted and found my thumb and index finger stuck together. Oops. Was only 30-45 seconds, but with thin CA, that is plenty. Took a lot of debonder to remove it, but I did. 😆

[ERS Rich]

Sorry what I thought was lifting was my eye misinterpreting the overlap.  Now I see.

 

 

[Avi]

Finished two streaks of copper plates on each side. It looks nice, but I’m not pleased with its solidity. It feels, well, fragile. I touch plates and they sometimes come off again. I often found that I’d put a layer of thin CA glue on a plate, put it in place, hold it, and it falls right off. 
 

Overall it just feels fragile. I did the planks with CA (medium), and I’m very comfortable holding the hull, carrying it moving it, etc. The copper just feels like it’s going to come off at first touch. 
 

I’m unsure if it’s because I used thin CA, or the nature of it on copper, or technique or something else. 
 

one thing I did find. If I put the thin layer of thin CA on the plate, blow it dry (3-4 breaths), then put another layer on and hold it against the planked hull, it tends to stick better on the first time. 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  If you are using 'real' metal 'plates', adhesion problems on the underside may be due to a smooth surface on the metal.  Many types of glue hold much better to a surface that has some fine roughness (referred to as "tooth") to it.  That makes for a better 'mechanical' bond.  Wood generally has this property due to the wood fibers, but that can be negated by 'filling' the pores and crevices with sealer and turned into a smooth, glossy surface.

 

   Then one has the problem of trying to glue TWO smooth surfaces together.  Going over the hull area to have plates glued with a fine sanding paper will impart the necessary "tooth" to that side.  The plates (while flat) before forming can be roughened in a similar way, or with a fine jewelers' file.  Then both surfaces will be more 'grippable' by whatever glue you are using.

 

  Many have used copper 'tape' using a variety of techniques found here and there on the forum, but I wonder about the long-term stability of 'soft' or contact bonding agents ... they may peel away after enough time goes by.

[Avi]

Huh. That’s an interesting idea. I’ll try that. I mainly went with CA because I have it, and @MrBlueJacket recommended it. 

[ERS Rich]

This sounds unusual to me. 
 

Is the glue dry before contact?  Should be wet on contact.
 

Have you tried Locktite “Gel”?  Thicker.  Available at Walmart in the Craft department.

 

 

[mort stoll]

I've always used contact cement with a small fan to blow  the fumes, towards an open window and always wear a mask. It works very well. I put a thin coat on the hull and a thin coat on the plates and wait about 10 minutes. I then attach the plates to the hull. The contact cement is still not completely dry so I can adjust the plate if necessary. 

If necessary I can later - after the cement has totally dried - read adjust the plate or plates if necessary by gently applying heat in the form of my Kammerlander Plank Bender or a simple soldering iron on the low heat setting.

 

Keep up the good work,

Mort

 

[Avi]

I’ve done three strakes on each side, sometimes using thin CA, sometimes medium. The last strake, I lightly sanded the smooth side (that will face the planks) before attaching it. That seemed to help somewhat. Fewer plates required redoing right away. But even so, if feels very fragile. I can run my hands over the planks on the hull, it feels like I’m holding a solid hull. I’d break a plank before it came off the hull. I sanded it comfortably when I was done without the slightest worry. 
 

On the other hand, the plates feel like if my finger catches on an edge, it will rip right off. 
 

Same Bob Smith Industries CA as everywhere else. I can try Loctite, but I’m skeptical it will be any better. I do have the thick CA, and accelerant, so I guess I can try that. 
 

I also can try contact cement; I assume I can get some here. Weather is getting nice, likely I can just do that outside. 
 

I find myself thinking about when coppering is finished, what I could “coat” it with that would bind it all together. That’s not a good sign. 

[Avi]

Some quick research shows lots of local places to pick up contact cement. I’ll pick up some, then try a strake with thick CA, followed by one with contact cement and see. 
 

My understanding is that contact cement requires putting coats on both sides, waiting about ten minutes, then applying brief pressure. I cannot imagine doing that one plank at a time @mort stoll; do you do a whole strake at once? Apply to a whole row on the hull, the 40 or so plates across, wait 10 mins, then apply them all?

[Avi]

I did one more strake on each side, using thick CA this time. It appears to have held better. I’ll still get contact cement tomorrow and try that too. 

[RossR]

Are you using contact cement on a second layer of planks or on the first layer.  I use contact cement on the second layer, it works great when there is a large surface area that is being stuck together.  If it is the first layer, I am not sure it will work as well as on a second layer.  

 

[Avi]

@RossR I assuming you’re asking Mort? I’ve not tried contact cement yet. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Avi

[mort stoll]

When I am copper plating I put the contact cement on the entire section of the hull I intend to copper plate and the copper plates. I wait 10-12 minutes until the cement is tacky to the touch, apply the plates and then repeat the process of applying the cement to the hull and the plates. I usually do a 4X4 area at a time. 

 

Hope this helps,

Mort

 

 

[Avi]

It does. What does “4x4 area” mean? Four rows by four plates across? I’ve been doing entire rows at a time. 
 

Also, what do you use to apply it?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Avi

[mort stoll]

4 inch by 4 inch or whatever size you're comfortable with.  

 

Does that help?

[RossR]

4 hours ago, Avi said:

Also, what do you use to apply it?

I use this brand.  A small cam is more than enough for one hull.  There is a brush attached the the cap.   They sell a bigger can also, but no built in brush.  Not sure where you are located, but it can be purchased at Home Depot or Menards in the US.  Probably most hardware stores also.