Help with drawings of rigging

[DaveBaxt]

I am currently building the masts of the HMS Bounty and although this ship may have difference I am hoping that it has similarities to other ships of her age. Being a first time builder of a period ship I am have a bit of a hard time understanding the drawings supplied by Amati. It was my intention to connect all the blocks which are attached to the mast before fitting the masts onto the ship. However not all the blocks are shown on the main drawing. Some blocks are omitted all together and some are not even the correct numbers /or not the correct block. I am currently working on the fore mast and the problem I am have is the section where the trestle trees and cross trees connect the topgallant foremast and top foremast. Here is a photo of the drawing of that area

You can see on this drawing there are 3 blocks shown that wrap around the upper trestle trees. The block where there are 3 holes has in fact got 2  of these blocks .Also the blocks with numbers 262 and 263 have 2 holes and 3 holes respectively. I have been trying to find out if there is a mistake here or whether there should be more block in this position. I will add another couple of photos of the drawings of the fore mast lifts and Bowsprit yard which also connects to this area.The drawing below which shows the lift (I think) does not show the numbers of the blocks but look like blocks with one hole. and there is 2 of them hanging from the trestle trees. So There are other drawings but these show blocks with two holes. So I can,t work out what is going on. At the moment I have just fitted the blocks which are shown on the main drawing but this may well be wrong. Has any one got any ideas to try and help me out. I have looked at a couple of blogs of the Bounty but nothing mentioned about this area. I have contacted the author of these blogs but unfortunatly they no longer have the drawings. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Best regards Dave

TTt

Edited March 3, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[BANYAN]

Dave,

 

Amati (and many other older ship model manufacturer's/kits) plans are somewhat simplified and often just show the step/rigging of the lines being indicated for that step and not the others rigged in the same vicinity etc.

 

If you do not have it, I would recommend a copy of the AOTS Bounty book which shows the rigging in much more detail.  That said, you still need to look at all sections and illustrations (for standing, running etc) of these drawings to get the 'full' picture as the research behind the rigging is much deeper - in some instances may not even marry-up with the Amati plans.  It is not easy as you are finding, especially for a first time builder of this style of ship.  You are very much on track in trying to rig as much rigging and fittings to the spars before assembly, this certainly helps.

 

There is no easy way around this unfortunately.  It's your choice if you want to go the 'simplified path' as shown by Amati, especially if you are treating this as a leaning experience.  However, you will need to look at both the standing and running rigging fittings on the different sheets/plans to get some feel.  Often, as you are finding, the plan sheets differ in that a single or double block is shown in the same vicinity - depending on what rigging sheet you are looking at, these may be different blocks used for different purposes. 

 

From your description I think you have figured that the blocks shown are actually just one (each) of pairs of blocks rigged to the top over the trestletrees using a long strop with blocks seized into their ends (only showing the blocks on one side).  The block with 3 holes being the upper block of a 'winding' tackle which is feasible (but unusual) but is dependent on its intended use (looks like it is used with the lifts in this instance).  It is possible the other 2 hole blocks are for another purpose but rigged in the same position?  Would need to follow the number identifiers to ascertain this (assuming the numbers on all sheets are to the same legend).

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited March 3, 2021 by BANYAN

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Pat and may have some way in explaining what is going on. You are correct in saying that I am treating this ship as a learning experience. I have since noted and although I appreciate that each mast is different there are a lot of similarities . I am definately looking at the other drawings to get what you say a feel for what is going on .However this is where I am finding the confusion . There is a booklet that came with the kit,which is rough translation from Italian to English and for just about every piece of running rigging there is a port and starboard . This is what makes me believe there are infact 2 blocks for each operation. However when looking at the sheet drawings this is not the case. As most of these blocks are in the same area and can be fitted at a later date perhaps I should just fit what I can see and hopefully then the penny will drop later on. Another way forward would be to go with my gut feeling and fit what I think what blocks are required for both standing and running rigging using the belaying pin plan and trace some of these lines from start to finish. The book you have mentioned may be an option and Imight consider this. Do you think this book would be of any other future models that I build?

                                   Once again I am thankful for your help and I appreciate what must be difficult questions to answer as all ships and there plans differ. Best regards Dave

                                      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[popeye2sea]

I see what you mean about the rigging plan being confusing. For instance in the second photo there is a line #39 leading through blocks at the crosstrees then through block #262 at the yardarm terminating in a hook shaped something (F).  It is depicted on a diagram showing the lifts for the yards, but it is rigged more like the topgallant sheet. What is "F"?  Is that a designator for a sail?

 

Regards,

[BANYAN]

I understand the confusion and frustration you are feeling (undergoing a similar issue with researching my Victoria rigging from scratch  )  Those translated booklets can sometimes add even further frustration.

 

As to the book, it would all depend on whether you wish to build another model of this period and type - the Book "AOTS - The Armed Transport Bounty" has many plans including the usual full rigging plan on the inside of the cover; so if you do decide to get it, make sure the jacket is included.  Here are two sample pictures from the web for it:

  

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited March 5, 2021 by BANYAN

[Roger Pellett]

Dave,

 

As none of us were around when Bounty was in existence (the original one) it is reasonable to ask where the kit designer got his information.

 

As the three masted ship rig was common in the Eighteenth century, rigging became standardized, especially among ships of the same nationality.  This was desirable as sailors joining a new ship did not have to “learn the ropes.”  Therefore, any reliable source that describes standard Eighteenth century rigging practice for an English three masted ship is probably as reliable as your modeling plans.  The standard work is The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War by James Lees.

 

It is  also helpful to know how  the rigging worked.  If you understand the basic physics of block and tackle, you can spot and correct mistakes on your mode.ling plans.

 

Roger

[Mark P]

Good Morning Dave;

 

As you are dealing with the lifts, the item at 'F' will almost certainly be a hook which is put into an eyebolt set in the side of the mast cap. However, in some rigging setups, the lifts also function as topgallant sheets; a resemblance which you noticed. More research needed!

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited March 5, 2021 by Mark P

[Gregory]

On 3/4/2021 at 2:05 AM, DaveBaxt said:

The book you have mentioned may be an option and Imight consider this. Do you think this book would be of any other future models that I build?

The AOTS book is good to have, but the rigging diagrams are relatively small and not easy to sort out..

 

If i were going to recommend a book that covers rigging in the spirit that Roger speaks of it would be this:

 

Historic Ship Models by Mondfeld.

 

He goes into detail about each line and how it is used..  This would have always been the same across various ships, as Roger pointed out.

[DaveBaxt]

5 hours ago, Gregory said:

The AOTS book is good to have, but the rigging diagrams are relatively small and not easy to sort out..

 

If i were going to recommend a book that covers rigging in the spirit that Roger speaks of it would be this:

 

Historic Ship Models by Mondfeld.

 

He goes into detail about each line and how it is used..  This would have always been the same across various ships, as Roger pointed out.

Thank you to everyone that has replied to my question. I have uploaded another photo of the drawings which shows the attachment with the letter F and another one G . Personally I dont,t where they go but in the diagram G which shows a hook so I am just confused . However there is a booklet that came with the instructions which is a translation and it says that fig 144 are the lifts. Sorry if this does not help you in anyway.

             Now I have decided that the only way I have a chance of sorting this out is to learn everything from scratch so I ordered the book you have mentioned in the hope it will explain what each be of equipment is for and how it is likely to work. This is the second book which I will now have. The first book although helpful but was just drawing of a particular ship and unfortunately it did not explain anything. Hopefully once I give my self some time to study this I will have a better idea what is needed on my model. Best regards Dave

Edited March 5, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[Gregory]

One more book to think about later;  Rigging Period Ship Models:

 

This book has received some criticism because of perceived errors, but it is based on what the author observed on a contemporary model, and the model may have had an error or two.

 

It is a great resource that shows how every line ran on a ship including the belaying point.  Even though it would not be a point for point match for Bounty, one could easily extrapolate for a reasonably accurate match..

 

Here is an example of the drawings in the book:

 

The author draws every rope on the model one at a time, showing exactly how it runs, with blocks, hooks and everything.

[DaveBaxt]

3 hours ago, Gregory said:

One more book to think about later;  Rigging Period Ship Models:

 

This book has received some criticism because of perceived errors, but it is based on what the author observed on a contemporary model, and the model may have had an error or two.

 

It is a great resource that shows how every line ran on a ship including the belaying point.  Even though it would not be a point for point match for Bounty, one could easily extrapolate for a reasonably accurate match..

 

Here is an example of the drawings in the book:

 

The author draws every rope on the model one at a time, showing exactly how it runs, with blocks, hooks and everything.

Gregory That is exactly the same book I already have and I agree there are some excellent  drawings which most of which I have learned about rigging and what is needed.However they are a lot different to what Amati have offered for the Bounty. Perhaps with the help of the other book the Penny will drop.Once again than you for taking the time to help me. Any future input will be extremely welcome. Best regards Dave

[Gregory]

Does Amati name the ropes, i.e., main topsail lift ?

 

If they don't, using any good book that does, is way ahead of them..

 

For instance, Peterson will  show you the main topsail lift and exactly how to run it and what the blocks and siezings  should look like.

It would serve the same purpose whether it is the Bounty or the Victory.

 

If Amati is showing something different, I wouldn't waste time trying to follow their instructions. other than a rough starting point.

 

Of course, you must proceed with what you are comfortable with, and I am sure you are learning a lot as you go along..

[amateur]

Also: kitmakers are not providing very many spares, so it may be that using AOTS for your rigging may result in shortage of some block types and/or rope.

Make sure you have acces to additional blocks of the same design: blocks by different firms look very much different, resulting in an awkward looking rigging of your ship.....

 

Jan

[popeye2sea]

A bit more information:

The notes on the plan sheets for item F  'ganci amantigli' translates literally to lovers hooks; which I think is the same as sister hooks.

The inset box on the rigging sheet translates to:

the hooks can be hooked to the eyebolts on the topgallant moor's heads.?
If the sails are installed, hook the hooks to the clews of the topgallant sails.

 

Regards,

Edited March 5, 2021 by popeye2sea

[Gregory]

Here is an example from Mondfeld:

 

You can rig your Bounty with these drawings and feel you are doing it right..

 

If you are not going to include sails, you might consider leaving some lines off, such as clews, leech and bow lines..

Again it is up to you.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Gregory

[DaveBaxt]

12 hours ago, amateur said:

Also: kitmakers are not providing very many spares, so it may be that using AOTS for your rigging may result in shortage of some block types and/or rope.

Make sure you have acces to additional blocks of the same design: blocks by different firms look very much different, resulting in an awkward looking rigging of your ship.....

 

Jan

Thanks for that Jan. Fortunately I kind of thought of there would be a few mistakes and I would need some practice. I have got a number of spares So will be fine.Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

8 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

A bit more information:

The notes on the plan sheets for item F  'ganci amantigli' translates literally to lovers hooks; which I think is the same as sister hooks.

The inset box on the rigging sheet translates to:

the hooks can be hooked to the eyebolts on the topgallant moor's heads.?
If the sails are installed, hook the hooks to the clews of the topgallant sails.

 

Regards,

Thanks Popeye. No sails this time but hopefully the next model. Thank you for your time. Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

13 hours ago, Gregory said:

Does Amati name the ropes, i.e., main topsail lift ?

 

If they don't, using any good book that does, is way ahead of them..

 

For instance, Peterson will  show you the main topsail lift and exactly how to run it and what the blocks and siezings  should look like.

It would serve the same purpose whether it is the Bounty or the Victory.

 

If Amati is showing something different, I wouldn't waste time trying to follow their instructions. other than a rough starting point.

 

Of course, you must proceed with what you are comfortable with, and I am sure you are learning a lot as you go along..

Unfortunately no. I am beginning to think that the Amati drawings are a waste of time . Look at the page marked lifts and my understand it they are for tilting the masts. According to their drawing (attached) the topgallant brace where the one side of the is connected to the trestle trees, the other side is not. So of my understanding, ,one side going down to the deck and a belaying pin , the other side connected to the trestle tree would prevent it all from working. I think after looking at the book I(Rigging period ship models)  and the the Amati drawing is just confusing .So as you say apart from just looking at the Amati for general guidence and to see what is required ie Lifts and Braces, then look at the books to see how it is properly done. A quick look at the 18th centuary lifts I dont need the rings and eye bolts on top of the trestle trees .A shame as I have only just glued them in place.Unless the ropes down to the deck first run through them . That could make sense.

                        Thank you for sending me an example of the book and although I have not yet studied it closely,already it looks to be a great help. After a quick look at the 18th centuary lifts , the yards have two blocks, a smaller one on top of a larger one , the Amati don,t have a block at all on the top gallant yard. Why two blocks ? Once again I thank you for all your help and guidence. Best regards Dave

Edited March 6, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

14 hours ago, Gregory said:

Does Amati name the ropes, i.e., main topsail lift ?

 

If they don't, using any good book that does, is way ahead of them..

 

For instance, Peterson will  show you the main topsail lift and exactly how to run it and what the blocks and siezings  should look like.

It would serve the same purpose whether it is the Bounty or the Victory.

 

If Amati is showing something different, I wouldn't waste time trying to follow their instructions. other than a rough starting point.

 

Of course, you must proceed with what you are comfortable with, and I am sure you are learning a lot as you go along..

Unfortunately no. I am beginning to think that the Amati drawings are a waste of time . Look at the page marked lifts and my understand it they are for tilting the masts. According to their drawing (attached) the topgallant brace where the one side of the is connected to the trestle trees, the other side is not. So of my understanding, ,one side going down to the deck and a belaying pin , the other side connected to the trestle tree would prevent it all from working. I think after looking at the book I(Rigging period ship models)  and the the Amati drawing is just confusing .So as you say apart from just looking at the Amati for general guidence and to see what is required ie Lifts and Braces, then look at the books to see how it is properly done.

                        Thank you for sending me an example of the book and although I have not yet studied it closely,already it looks to be a great help. Once again I thank you for all your help and guidence. Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

I am aware that the standing rigging is to be completed first and the shrouds on the lower masts completed before the masts can be assembled, however what I for got to mention is that at the moment I am just building the mast temporarily as I have yet not started on the standing rigging. It was my attention to build all the mast parts and keep each mast in a seperate plastic bag. I was also under the impression that it would benifit to fit all the blocks to the mast before moving onto the rigging ropes. Now I am beginning to wonder that the shroud pairs should be fitted before I wrap any of these blocks around the mast in the same area. although I have already done the blocks on the fore mast in these areas I could just remove them until I have done the shrouds or does it not matter which ones go on first. I would imagine it would as the shroud pairs would be permanent but the other added blocks for running gear would be semi permanent .Hope I am making sense. Best regards Dave

[Gregory]

Note:  Keep in mind that Monfeld shows one side without sails, in which case, the yards are lower on the masts..

 

Here is a nice model at NMM showing the topsails lowered.  Speedwell

 

Another note, is that topgalant sails were often " set flying ".

The yards were not present when no sails were rigged.  They were rigged on the deck, and hoisted ( set flying ) when required...

 

For modeling purposes, I think the yards without sails are often  shown in a raised position, with the topgallant yards as well.

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

Note:  Keep in mind that Monfeld shows one side without sails, in which case, the yards are lower on the masts..

 

Here is a nice model at NMM showing the topsails lowered.  Speedwell

 

Another note, is that topgalant sails were often " set flying ".

The yards were not present when no sails were rigged.  They were rigged on the deck, and hoisted ( set flying ) when required...

 

For modeling purposes, I think the yards without sails are often  shown in a raised position, with the topgallant yards as well.

Thanks for sending the link. I wouldn,t of noticed the position of the yards if no sails fitted . I am now really looking forward to the new book arriving. Best regards Dave

[Roger Pellett]

“I’m beginning to think that the Amati drawings are a waste of time.”

 

Dave,

 

Exactly, that’s what I was implying in my post #6 above without being overly negative concerning kit suppliers.  Amati really has no better information than is available to you from published sources since original detailed rigging plans specifically for Bounty would not have been available to them or to anyone else.

 

The best that you can do is to follow standard practice and to make sure that nothing that you have done violates the physics of simple machines.

 

Also keep in mind that Peterson based his book on models on exhibit in museums.  As ship models age, are moved from place to place, are cleaned, etc. and the rigging is easily damaged.  Also, many old models were not rigged in the first place.  In these cases rigging was repaired or added by “experts.”  Rigging on old models may, therefore, be as reliable a source as it might seem.

 

The museum at the US Naval Academy has been intensively studying its collection of British Admiralty models accumulated by Colonel Rogers in the 1020’s.  Before placing many of these models in his collection, Rogers had them restored by highly skilled American model makers.  The result, published in a series of SeaWatch books is a case study of things are not always what they seem.

 

Roger

[DaveBaxt]

17 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

“I’m beginning to think that the Amati drawings are a waste of time.”

 

Dave,

 

Exactly, that’s what I was implying in my post #6 above without being overly negative concerning kit suppliers.  Amati really has no better information than is available to you from published sources since original detailed rigging plans specifically for Bounty would not have been available to them or to anyone else.

 

The best that you can do is to follow standard practice and to make sure that nothing that you have done violates the physics of simple machines.

 

Also keep in mind that Peterson based his book on models on exhibit in museums.  As ship models age, are moved from place to place, are cleaned, etc. and the rigging is easily damaged.  Also, many old models were not rigged in the first place.  In these cases rigging was repaired or added by “experts.”  Rigging on old models may, therefore, be as reliable a source as it might seem.

 

The museum at the US Naval Academy has been intensively studying its collection of British Admiralty models accumulated by Colonel Rogers in the 1020’s.  Before placing many of these models in his collection, Rogers had them restored by highly skilled American model makers.  The result, published in a series of SeaWatch books is a case study of things are not always what they seem.

 

Roger

Roger Thank you for your reply, and it is clear to me now that I must as you say learn the ropes. This is clear to me now that this is something that will take further research. However It is more than a little frustrating when looking at the Amati drawings and clearly looking at some of them on face value don,t work and I therefore wonder how much research they have actually done. To complicate matters they appear to be adding double blocks rather than single etc.I know it sound like I am laying my frustrations at Amatis door but for what it is worth I have no complaints about the kit its self and believe in the hands of a knowledgble  person would turn out to be a very fine model.

                        I am now wondering if this is probably always going to be the case with all supplied kits and now beginning to see why people decide to scratch build. Are there any kit manufacturers out there that are better researched or have at least better instructions? I again thank you for helping me understand the situation regarding what is turning out to be an all consuming hobby. Best regards Dave 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[amateur]

There are -as far as I read the logs here - differences between kitmanufacturers. Amati and Corel being 'intermediate quality' , more modern kits (Syren and Vanguard) being quite above average. 

 

My onw experience with Corel: it is not always the historical incorrectness, but a rather instructions that are quite dificult ro read. At first thoughtthat my Prins Willem was way off, I started researching, and doing it my own way. Lookingback, I see that had understood the instructions right away, the endresult would have been more o rless the same. Differences only tobe seen by people that did their own research

 

Jan

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

54 minutes ago, amateur said:

There are -as far as I read the logs here - differences between kitmanufacturers. Amati and Corel being 'intermediate quality' , more modern kits (Syren and Vanguard) being quite above average. 

 

My onw experience with Corel: it is not always the historical incorrectness, but a rather instructions that are quite dificult ro read. At first thoughtthat my Prins Willem was way off, I started researching, and doing it my own way. Lookingback, I see that had understood the instructions right away, the endresult would have been more o rless the same. Differences only tobe seen by people that did their own research

 

Jan

 

 

Thank you Jan. The reason I picked the Bounty by Amati was being a total novice at modelling and only my second building a ship and first of a period ship was because there was a set of videos which I thought would make life easier.However the guy in videos does suggest because of a number of issues is probably not for the beginner. I am basically treating this ship as a learning curve although I am trying to do my best from the guidance of the good people on here. If you are saying that Corel and Amati are both intermediate manufacturers and there are better ones in Quality. I am not familiar with these names but will have look into the availability here in the UK. I have been looking into another manufacturer called Jotika or Caldercraft  and wonder what your thoughts are on these or is it the same company? The ship in question id the HMS Bark Endeavour. Best regards Dave