Help planking around the keel

[DispleasedOwl]

Hi everyone on MSW

 

I am on my 4th build now (AL Jolie Brise) and i just started planking. Now, i have a few questions for the more experienced modellers regarding the keel and the planking around it.

 

When i see finished professional builds i see how the planks around the keel lay against it perfectly flush and smooth, even on the rudder area (i dont know how its called). I had some trouble in my last build since it had a very tiny keel and the planks laying on it almost covered it up. My question is, how do you manage to plank that area, do you sand the frames, the false keel? I thought of sanding only the planks but they become so thin they tear apart, revealing the false keel under them. And also if you place the keel before or after planking.

 

I will attach an image of another Jolie Brise build log from GreatGalleons so you know what i mean. Sorry for bad english.

 

 

Thank you in advance

 

Hugo Bosque

[Gregory]

On the models where the planks appear to fit flush there is a sort of groove called the rabbet, and the edges of the planks are inserted into this groove.

 

At the stern , there is a recessed area called the bearding line, where the framing  is recessed to be less than the thickness of the sternpost and keel so that the planks are flush with the sternpost and keel.

 

Most kits don't provide this detail, and you have to add it as you go along.  At this point it would be difficult to add to your model.

 

In the future you will need to access some of the planking guides here at MSW..

 

Here is a simplified illustration of the bearding line and rabbet..

 

  

Edited March 8, 2021 by Gregory

[Thistle17]

Hugo I assume you have used the planking tutorials on this web site, namely within the forum you have posted. So one has to ask have you created/added a simulated rabbett on the bulkhead strongback (center element that runs along the keel). Have you carved out the stern area of this element (deadwood in a real keel) so that your planks will lay down flush with a later added stren post? At times some slight tapering of these planks is acceptable to have them lay correctly in the stern area. Does this help?

Joe

[DispleasedOwl]

Thank you Gregory for the images! That was a very clear explanation of just what i needed. Since i started planking from the deck downwards, i can still carve out the bearding line. As for the rabbet, in a model in which the keel comes separate from the main body (skeleton) of the ship, do i need to carve out the keel pieces, place them and then insert the planks in the rabbet (left drawing), or do i sand down the keel pieces into a V shape and place them on the planks (right drawing)? Let me make a rought drawing in paint to show you what i mean.

 

 

Again, thanks for your help

 

2 hours ago, Thistle17 said:

have you created/added a simulated rabbett on the bulkhead strongback

 

I have made a mistake and done the rabbets incorrectly. I sanded down the strongback into an arrow shape for the planks to lay at a V shape so then i just have to place the keel pieces on top of them. Let me add a rough drawing to show you.

 

 

I dont know if i did this correctly

 

 

[DispleasedOwl]

Another problem that i see when i look at this picture:

 

 

is that, even if i understand  it correctly, in my models, the bulkhead goes all the way up to the top of the bulkhead strongback, so i am unable to do this kind of shape. Do i need to sand of a little bit of the bulkhead so i can bake the rabbet? Let me again draw it for you

 

 

[DispleasedOwl]

For example, in this image from one of the tutorials:

 

 

 

If we look at C, how can i do that in this frame? The bulkhead strongback is not high enough

 

 

Again, thank you all for your patience

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by DispleasedOwl

[Gregory]

29 minutes ago, DispleasedOwl said:

As for the rabbet, in a model in which the keel comes separate from the main body (skeleton) of the ship, do i need to carve out the keel pieces, place them and then insert the planks in the rabbet (left drawing), or do i sand down the keel pieces into a V shape and place them on the planks (right drawing)? Let me make a rought drawing in paint to show you what i mean.

Here is something that works really well for most kits, and should work in your last example, with a back-bone type keel, where you add the separate keel, and stern post:

 

 

You add a 1/16 ( smaller or bigger depending on the size of the model ) square strip along the center of the piece.

 

As seen here on Chuck's Winchelsea.

 

 

This serves as a groove  in which to fit your planks, and serves the same purpose as the rabbet..

 

It only adds a fraction to the dimensions of your model and should not cause any problems, while making the fitting of the planks easier and better looking..

 

So, instead of something like  this:

 

You get something like:

 

 

This!

 

Gregory

Edited March 8, 2021 by Gregory

[Jaager]

Cutting too deeply into a plywood spine may not be all that good of a practice.  The bonding surface for the keel needs to have an adequate surface area.  If a supply of veneer of an appropriate species of wood can be obtained, a layer of veneer can be scabbed onto the outer surface of the keel on either side.  On models where the rabbet was done poorly, this could serve as a rescue.  Going out for a rabbet rather than chiseling in would appear as the same result.

[amateur]

I guess that you making things overcomplicated: when the bulkheads go all the way to the keel, you can also starting the planking at the centerline, so that the planks of both sides touch each other. After planking, sand it flat so that you can put the keel on it. (Essentially the situation shown i fig 2c, but without the centerpiece visible from the outside.

 

As far as I understood the other buildlog, youhave to sand both stern and deadwood in order to have the planks running smoothly, and and make sure that at the aft end the total thicknes of planks and centerboard do not exceed the width of the keel. Final result will be almost the same as shown inthe post of Gregory above, but it is easier to get it clean: the method he shows need the keel put on before planking, AL let you put it tothe hull after planking. Preventing glue spilling to unwanted places

 

 

Jan

 

 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, amateur said:

I guess that you making things overcomplicated:

I guess a lot of our members feel that it is complicated, because we get a lot of questions about these things..

 

That is why we depend on the more experienced  members like yourself, to give us ideas that have worked for us..

 

AL might have a good method but they do not give detailed instructions that would provide a nice looking outcome..

 

Rabbet and bearding line do not seem to be part of their vocabulary, but are essential  to well finished planking on ship models.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Gregory

[amateur]

Does Artesania give a cross-section of the planked hull somewhere, so that we can see  what their i tention was? Actually, I keepthinking that they use the      same method the older Billing kits used: just plank it all over, and glue the keel to the outside of the planking, without too much (none whatsover) bothering of rabbets.

 

The 'chucklike' rabbet as shown by Gregory will takes a bit of  trial and error in this case, as in his example the planking sits at almost 90 degrees at the stern, in the case of this ship, the planking has an angle of 40 ? degrees. In that case, your rabbelstrip needs to be thicker than the planking, and getting a nice transition between planking and keel can be a bitmore tricky. With due respect to everyone: AL-kits arenot made to represent actual building practice, nor for people who want to show their technical skills.

They are made to have some building fun, that ends in a rather goodlooking model. Only problem: their instructions are not always clear to their targeted customer group...

 

Jan

[PietFriet]

Having recently completed an AL ship I'm largely with amateur. Where the planking reaches the keel under an angle, plank over the false keel. Then sand it until the resulting flat 'bit' has the width of the false keel. For the parts where the planking needs to be flush with the keel I sanded the multiplex on both sides but not all the way. The remaining thickness was reduced by sanding the planking once finished. That way you have control over the final thickness to match the keel pieces. Personally I would not attempt a rabbet line at the bottom or front; that's not what the kit is designed for and would indeed over complicate the build.

[Gregory]

Quote

The 'chucklike' rabbet as shown by Gregory will takes a bit of  trial and error in this case, as in his example the planking sits at almost 90 degrees at the stern, in the case of this ship, the planking has an angle of 40 ? degrees.

 

 

No trial and error..  It stays the same from front to back

 

 

Using the rabbet strip, at the stern, the bearding line is made flush with the rabbet strip..

 

( GBarlow's Cheerful )

 

 

 

At this point, very little, if any of the thickness of the planks has been removed..

At most a small amount of beveling on some edges.

 ( Thanks to Glenn for providing a lot of detail in his build log.. )

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Gregory

[amateur]

I was referring to the stern: chearfull has a rather bluff bow, jolie a rather sharp one. I agree with you that the underside is rather straightforward, the interesting part is the stern, and the transition from keel to stern

 

Jan

[Gregory]

1 minute ago, SpyGlass said:

Sorry - but I just HAD to ask😁  -is that keel piece on upside down ??

Oh no..  That is the shape that blends with the rudder..