HMS Victory by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100 - PLASTIC

[Bill97]

Thanks Veszett. I started out using Tester enamels but switched to Vallejo acrylics about 6 ship build back. Vallejo has a line of paints specifically for air brush and a line for brush and I can get the same color in both. That way I can airbrush some and hand paint some areas with no change in color. I do like my airbrush and cleaning enamel out of it was a real task. As you said about enamels, I also thin my acrylics and apply several thin coats. I seem to remember reading somewhere that synthetic brushes are better with acrylics than natural hair. Don’t know if that is true or not. I just want to find a good set of brushes in the sizes you show above. I have a local hobby shop I use and the obvious mail order suppliers. Don’t know if price is a good bench mark or brand name. 

[Hubac's Historian]

The brushes I use are mostly inexpensive synthetics.  I bought a variety set at Michaels that has held up really well, although there has been some edge distortion.

 

I really like the BLICK synthetics.  Those hold their shape really well and clean easily.  I bought a War-Hammer detail brush that is a synthetic and natural blend.  I haven’t used that one yet.

 

Since I’m painting with acrylics, soap and water cleanup is all that is necessary, but I will periodically dip them in enamel thinner, when the ferrules start getting stiff.

 

The thing I like about the BLICK brushes is that the handles are super long, and I’ll steady the tail end of the handle on my cheek, as I’m cutting-in a line.  This little trick affords me complete control over the brush.

[Bill97]

Thanks guys. Will pick up some new brushes. 

[Bill Morrison]

I'm going to have to check out those Dafi videos!  Great job!

 

Bill

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Bill,

 

As Hubac says, Heller provides fine molded lines for the ochre stripes and they do not follow the wales. But I seem to recall some inaccuracies in their locations where they meet the quarter galleries and even I think between the two sides.  Best check photos of the actual ship.

 

Are you going to frame the gunports inside with some evergreen strips? This replicates the actual hull thickness and adds "heft" to the visual appearance.

 

I didn't see anyone answer your query about Dafi's brass etch.....yes definitely you want to blacken them. I haven't had much luck with blackener in the past (I've since learned one must pickle them first to remove oxide coating) so I painted them.

 

I've been out of touch with your build, but now you have a new follower.  😃

Edited June 18, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[Hubac's Historian]

I’m glad that Ian mentioned this about using Evergreen to frame-out the gunport openings.  In my opinion, no matter how well you paint and assemble a plastic ship model, the unrealistically thin hull depth, through the gunports, draws way too much attention to the fact that this is a plastic model.

 

Because Heller Victory is going to be a big project, anyway, why not go the extra mile, here?  If this ends up being the one substantial modification you make, you will never regret it.

 

If you want to take it even a step further, use a slightly thicker plastic on the lowest gun deck, followed by a slightly less thick plastic for the middle deck; doing so, gives a sense of graduation in frame thickness that would be present on the real ship.

 

In 1:100, I used .125” square strip stock to frame the lower ports, and then .100” stock for the middle deck .  I didn’t bother with the main deck ports, but I did increase the thickness of the caprail by .030”, because that is what your eye is drawn to.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[Jeff T]

I use synthetic or natural hair brushes interchangeably with either acrylic or enamel.  For acrylics, the brushes may be easier to clean if synthetic rather than natural hair, especially if the paint starts to thicken while you are working.  For enamels, the enamel thinner that I use is mild — mineral spirits based — so it doesn’t seem to affect the synthetic bristles.  I buy packs of assorted fine brushes at Hobby Lobby periodically (although the shapes and sizes I like for detail there tend to be natural hair) and switch to the new ones as the old ones lose their shape over time, but I keep the old ones for things like weathering and dry-brushing.

[Veszett Roka]

5 hours ago, Bill97 said:

 Don’t know if price is a good bench mark or brand name. 

 

The price is good mark, but not sure sign. Expensive brands have small tricks: As Hubac said above, longer handles, nickel sockets for hair (the ferrule) or non/sticking finish, and especially good balance. Balance is important for fine work (just like airbrush) and best handling - personally i like the lighter bristle and heavier handles.

But cheaper brushes could perform the same like the 20$ stick. Go to the local hobby shop and try for the most handsome one - if it will perform less than expected, you can try another, but i'm pretty sure you'll choose the good one and will get a very fine brush.

 

[Bill97]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I am planning to thicken the gunports on the lower decks. I won’t do the top deck ports because I think it would be to obvious without being by a deck above it. But may widen the cap rail as you suggested Hubac. What is evergreen you guys reference for this process?  Jeff my supply store is Hobby Lobby as well. Did not know if it was OK to identify store. Just yesterday I was looking at their brush options. One brand but multiple options. Where possible I also like a thicker handle. 

[Hubac's Historian]

It comes in all different shapes and sizes and in sheets of varying thickness.  It is fantastic for scratch-work because it is relatively soft:

 

https://yankeedabbler.com/evergreen-110-styrene-strip-015-x-020-thick-14-long-pkg-10-scale-ho-part-269-110/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrs_G0P-h8QIVz8DICh3-dACREAQYAyABEgIlVfD_BwE

[Jeff T]

 

1 hour ago, Hubac's Historian said:

It comes in all different shapes and sizes and in sheets of varying thickness.  It is fantastic for scratch-work because it is relatively soft:

 

https://yankeedabbler.com/evergreen-110-styrene-strip-015-x-020-thick-14-long-pkg-10-scale-ho-part-269-110/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrs_G0P-h8QIVz8DICh3-dACREAQYAyABEgIlVfD_BwE

 

I agree — the Evergreen strips, sheets, rods and tubes are also invaluable when you do modifications in plastic modeling.  Bill, two of the Hobby Lobby stores near me carry Evergreen materials.  Maybe you can also find them near you?

[Bill97]

Thanks Hubac and Jeff. MSW strikes again. Never heard of Evergreen. Hopefully my Hobby Lobby will have it. 

[Bill97]

Jeff I checked and my Hobby Lobby does have Evergreen. Their website says 2mm, 1.5mm, 1mm, .75mm, and .5mm. Which thickness(s) do you recommend? 

[Jeff T]

Well, I haven’t used strips for the purpose of thickening  gunport walls, but Hubac’s Historian mentioned above that he used 0.125” strips for the lower gunports, which is 0.38mm thick.  The closest to that of the thicknesses you mention would be 0.5mm.  His link to the website yankeedabbler.com would get you the same thickness he used.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

For the record - I also wasn’t doing any sort of involved search.  That was just the first representative link I found to show the product.  If you shop around a little, on-line, you may be able to find better selection and pricing.

 

I am fortunate to still have at least one old-school hobby shop in NYC - Jan’s Hobby - where they carry a pretty wide assortment.  The old French lady, there, charges $4 “cold, hard cash!!” for any individual packet of Evergreen.  When you pay cash, she doesn’t charge sales tax.

 

If you hang out long enough, she will tell you stories about the Nazi occupation that she lived through.  Anyway, I bought a bunch of different sizes and shapes, and am constantly finding new applications for all of it.

 

As for sizes, the great thing about 1:96/1:100 scale is that 1/8” equals 1’.  From there, it is relatively easy to deduce the scale sizes of any component.  In the end, it doesn’t need to be EXACTLY right, but at least close.  If anything - err on the side of a little too small, rather than too big.

 

If it is any encouragement to you - this thickening of the gun ports is the very first modification I made to my SR project.  In fact, it was the first significant alteration I had ever made to any out-of-box kit.  After that small success, I just kept on adding and modifying.  While it is true that I had complimentary skill sets, going into the project, my skill set has grown exponentially as a result of the project.

 

Once you get a taste for modification and scratch-building, the hobby takes on entirely new dimensions.  You literally learn to “think outside the box.”

Edited June 19, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[Bill97]

 Hubac I love the old French lady at the hobby shop!  Miss those kinds of stores. We used to have several here in Louisville but now just Hobby Lobby and Michaels. Going to Hobby Libby to see what I can find and pick up some new brushes. My skills on modifying the out of box kit has increased over time as well. My first build after retirement and getting back into model ships was the Revell 1/96 USS Constitution. Since I was pretty much a novice being I had not built a model since teen years, I built it strictly out of box. Thankfully Revell provided excellent and very detailed instructions manuals. My second ship was the Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark. That was also when I discovered Model Ship World. With guidance from MSW members I learned there was a problem in the model design, and how to fix it, reference the route and mechanics of the anchor chains on upper deck. This was my first modification and feeling the freedom of “thinking outside the box”. Since then I have made modifications to the instructions where it appeared something was missing, or just did not address it. “Based on my other build experience, there should be a (whatever) here are or there” type situation, and I would fabricate it. Other times (I think it was my  Trumpeter Mayflower) the assembly had the bowsprit going out at nearly 45 degrees so I modified that to look better. I also learned and honed new skills like hand tying my own shrouds and ratlines, seizing a line, etc. (I have yet to use one of those plastic frames to make the shroud/ratlines).  All this comes from learning and guidance from you guys on MSW. If I had not found this site and built all my models out of box strictly according to the instructions, I am not sure what my displays would look like. The HMS Victory I am starting now will be my 7th build. With each I have learned a new skill or technique. I told someone the other day this will be my PhD dissertation that will take me quite awhile to complete!  However I know I will continue to learn as I build it. This process of thickening the hull around the gun ports might me my first strictly for appearance but I really like it. I know it would be tedious but would you also thicken the gun port lids so they appear to be as thick as the hull?  Got a bunch of my large pieces primed yesterday and now ready for some first light coats of paint. Also picked up this book with some great pictures that will be helpful in the painting. 
Again thanks for you encouragement and advice b

[Bill97]

Found it!  Thanks guys

[Hubac's Historian]

My mother was from Louisville.  She and her mother left in 1955, when my mom was 15, and they re-settled in White Plains, NY.  My mom never talked much about why they left, and she only remained in contact with a pair of cousins.  My mom passed five years ago, and it is kind of incredible to think, sometimes, that I have an entire extended family out there that I know nothing about.

 

But, I digress…

 

You have begun your journey, and now you are equipped with the Evergreen that will help get you there.  This is going to be fun!

[Bill97]

That is interesting Hubac about your mom and family. Who knows, you may have extended family still here. I was born in Louisville in August of ‘52 and except for some years in the Army have lived here all my life. Have visited Manhattan a few times over the years and really enjoyed it. From now on I will think of our city’s connection during the horse racing Triple Crown. 
I attached a progress picture of my Evergreen. Hope I am doing it correctly!  
Hubac I do have another quick question. The instructions say to paint the top surface of the two bottom decks red and the bottom service white. Is this correct? In all the pictures I have seen of the Victory none of them show the floor of the lower decks painted red. I have seen the underside white representing the ceiling of the deck. 

[Bill97]

[Hubac's Historian]

I am doubtful that the deck surfaces were painted at all.  The gun trucks would have  made a mess of any sort of top-coat, and generally, the decks were regularly “holy-stoned” with bible-size stones to keep them clear and fresh.  Dafi’s build indicates white interior planking and deck beams, and I believe the underside of deck planking.  I believe that is what is indicated on the actual ship.

 

To answer your earlier question anout thickening port lids, I did add port linings to mine because the kit did not represent them:

My understanding of Victory, though, is that the lid interiors do not have this lapping step-rebate around their perimeter.  As with virtually everything Heller Victory, you can probably find a detailed discussion of this on Dafi’s log.

 

And, I am sure I do have family in Kentucky.  Until she got thrown and badly hurt, my mother jumped horses.

[Ian_Grant]

Bill,

 

Yes your gunport linings are looking good. Tedious but the results are worth it. Like you plan, I only lined the lower two gun decks.

 

Though the instructions say to paint the lower and middle gun decks, in reality nobody will ever see them unless they poke an optical fiber through a gunport. If you do paint them you end up scraping paint off to cement the gun trucks to the deck. I left them as is. One can barely see the gun carriages through the ports, much less the decks. If you do want to paint them I suggest gluing the guns in first.

 

When you get to the main deck, I think (? it's been a while) the latest analysis of remaining paint layers carried out by the restorers showed the main deck bulwarks were yellow ochre. Had you heard about the other colour changes they determined from this analysis? The bee lines are no longer yellow ochre on the real ship but a new colour which has some pink in it.You can read up on this at hms-victory.com

 

ps I still recommend you get a copy of Longridge's "Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" and forget the Heller instructions as regards rigging.

[Hubac's Historian]

Personally, I don’t care for that salmony yellow color, even if it is correct for 1805.  Port linings do look good, Bill!

[Bill97]

That is my thought as well on painting the decks that don’t show. Waste of paint. Finished the frames for lower deck gun ports on the port side. Really like you you’alls (Kentucky slang) recommendation. I like yellow ochre and plan to use that along with the black and red for gun ports. 

[Bill97]

Also got a little painting done on weathering my two upper deck sections. Still a long way to go on them! 
 

[Ian_Grant]

2 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Personally, I don’t care for that salmony yellow color, even if it is correct for 1805.  Port linings do look good, Bill!

I wholeheartedly agree!   I do like the new red though.

 

Nice looking deck, Bill!

Edited June 19, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[Bill97]

OK my friends I need to pick your brains. Ever since I got this model about a year ago I have read others build log. Many speak of Daniel’s (Dafi) etched sheets. I have emailed with Daniel about possibly purchasing sheets 3 and 4. I don’t want to use the sheet parts that would require me to sand or scrape molded areas off the hull and other pieces. I have only seen the etched sheets in these pictures, not in person. I originally thought one would purchase these sheets to add the special touch of shinny brass to the model. I understood them to be the exact piece as out of box plastic, just brass. The purpose of using them would be to add that extra visual stunning appearance. After further discussion on MSW I now understand I would still need to paint or treat the brass pieces just as I would the plastic. So that leads me to wonder what is the advantage of using them? The cost is not really an issue but I do wonder what will I gain if I use the etched sheets and my finished Victory will not look any different than if I use the included plastic pieces? If you have used the etched sheets what do you feel you gained that would cause you to encourage me to purchase them. I am honestly confused as to what I will gain using them. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. 

[Hubac's Historian]

I haven’t built a model, yet, that has photo-etch parts made for it, but PE offers a higher degree of sharpness to things like the rows of stern balusters, beneath the windows.  Speaking of Daniel’s set, in particular, things like the plastic window mullions, which are kind of heavy and out of scale looking (the limitations of plastic moulding), become much lighter and refined looking.  In the case of Heller Victory, Daniel has taken an already excellent kit and elevated it a couple of notches.  That being said, scraping all of the existing detail from the stern and quarter galleries is a significant undertaking.  Different builders take different approaches.  Some like to cut the bulk away with a hobby knife, I like to waste away most of it with Dremel sanding drums and burrs.  It is all a matter of personal preference, and deciding how far EXTRA you want to go with it.  Hands-down - straight out of the box - it makes a fantastic model.

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Bill,

 

The advantage of etched brass is that they can form tiny details that cannot be molded in plastic due to strength issues.  As you say, the purpose of the brass etch sheets is not to add bling, but to enhance detail.

 

They can also help with functionality.

 

Example (1):  The plastic hammock stanchions included in the kit have no molded eyes at their top ends, rendering them very difficult to rig neatly with the ropes that run along their tops to support the nettings. Plus they are necessarily molded over-size to have some strength. Daniel's stanchions are simplicity itself to rig with the netting support ropes. Also, when you inevitably knock them during the build, they bend instead of breaking and are easily straightened.

 

Example (2): The kit provides nothing for the lower chains. In fact, the hull doesn't even have the preventer plates molded on. Heller would have you tie strings to the very clunky-looking strops on their lower deadeyes and pass them through the holes in the hull. The result is to say the least crap looking. Daniel's brass parts replicate the three links of the chains and provide the preventer plates.

 

Here is the Heller method (image from Dafi's log):

 

and here are Dafi's chains (image from Dafi's log):

 

Here are Dafi's chains on my model; note the preventer plates  (the etch stanchions are also seen):

 

Example (3): I don't even recall how Heller would have you strop the lower deadeyes in the tops. As I mentioned before their deadeyes are unusable anyway. Dafi's etch sheet that provides the lower chains also provides neat strops for the wood deadeyes you need to buy for the topmast shrouds (smaller than the lower mast deadeyes), and associated hooks to attach the futtock shrouds. Here is an image of my model; if you look carefully you can see the hooks attaching the futtock shrouds to the deadeye strops:

 

 

Example (4): the sheet with the stanchions includes a new binnacle and skylight. I don't have detailed closeups of them but here is a shot of my model which includes the etch skylight which you can compare to the Heller rendition:

 

The two sheets I recommended earlier provide all these, and more.  For instance, gun locks for the cannon and new stunsail boom irons neither of which I used. Hope I have shown you how you can enhance your model considerably!

Edited June 22, 2021 by Ian_Grant
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[Bill97]

Thanks guys. Exact information I needed to make my decision. It is actually an improvement of the part!  That is very helpful and convincing.