Lancia Armata 1803 by mikiek - Panart - 1:16

[mikiek]

Hey all, I have to admit honestly I have cheated and already begun this build. Truth be told, I wasn't even going to post a build log. However, early on I began running into problems and questions based from the plans (if you can call them that) and I thought I should at least let you guys know what my thought process was in resolving them.

 

I have built another Panart kit (gundeck cutaway) and overall the experience was OK. There were many occasions where the instructions totally contradicted the drawings and the drawings totally contradicted what few pix there were. Fortunately, there were more than a few MSW members that helped me along with that build. It turned out quite nice and I have to say working with the large scale was a lot of fun.

 

Sadly, this kit does not have the same appealas the gundeck. I have found a few old build logs, but honestly have gained little insight to the problems that I see.

 

Lancia Armata is not much more than an armed ships boat, but at 1:16 scale even a small boat has lots of detail. This is one those builds where you plank the frames then knock out the frames and there are some issues around that. The biggest one is the lower part of the frame is supposed to remain fixed so basically you are breaking off the top 2/3 of the frame. There is a horizontal slice at the breakpoint but I doubt it extends far enough to give a clean break. I am definitely considering extending that slice before I cover the frames with planks.

 

Then my biggest nitemare, the planking diagram (insulting to even give it that much credit) shows some bizarre pattern for planking. Keep in mind this build is supposed to have 3 plank layers. Yup, you heard me right. Here's the only drawing they show:

 

 

Looks like what a 5 year old might turn out as their first planking attempt. I mean honestly, this is pathetic. And it is the only drawing that shows any planking at all. Is this how all 3 plank layers are supposed to be laid? Is there supposed to be a garboard? How about a rabbet? Are they truly suggesting that I lay these 5 planks and then carve fillers for all the gaps? This lack of detail is inexcusable.

 

I apologize, I am still on a rampage due to the lack of details. Fortunately, I have enough builds under my belt to realize the deficiencies in the drawings/instructions. Someone that took this kit as their first build would be totally hosed.

 

I will try to be more positive in the future. I am already making my own adjustments to get me thru this BS. I have decided to plank this just like every other build I have done. If you are familiar with any of my other builds you know that means marking off bands and breaking out the proportional dividers. I will have some pix and an explanation forthcoming.

 

Sorry for starting out so negative, but it will get better.....

 

 

 

 

[mikiek]

Hey everyone. I have settled down now and going about my business. As far as planking goes, I'm saying the plans can take a hike. I am building this just like any other build. I think that was the tonic for me.

 

I cut a rabbet, since it has to hold 3 layers of planks I went as deep into the keel as I could, wide too. Somehow I don't think they are gonna fit without some help. I'm thinking I will thin down the edge of each garboard where they fit into the rabbet. That's not gonna solve the whole problem but it should help.

 

The first layer garboards are laid, I have my bands marked on the frames and am putting down planks. I can glue sticks to the stem and the first frame behind that. Also the transom frame and the one in front of that. Can't glue to any of the others, so I'm basically edge gluing the rest of each stick. I'm finding pin clamps to be a tremendous help here. I pin a strake to the frame (where I would normally glue it) and then start edge gluing the stick underneath it. I did that for the first 3 strakes, no shaping, just get the edges glued together.

 

After the first 3 strakes and the garboards were in I divided up the remaing area into 4 bands and am going thru my planking by dividers routine. I've done that tutorial in several previous builds so I'm not planning on repeating it here. I will say it all looks pretty cut & dry at this point. The only potential problem is each of the 4 bands needs 4 sticks. Thats 4 x 4 x 2 = 32 sticks and that is exactly what I have left at this point. The sticks are just a little longer than the hull so there's not a lot of leftovers. I suspect I'm gonna need some extra to make fillers back in the deadwood area. So we'll see.

 

I'm also concerned whether the frames are going to break out like they are supposed to. See pix below.

 

 

Garboard laid. You can see the band marks on the frames and that top most plank is the first one to be shaped.

 

 

Pin clamps in action.

 

 

These are the breaklines for the frames. You cant see it but they are cut all the way thru.

 

 

They left a lot of meat at the end of the breaklines. I hope the frames break as designed as there is another part that will glue to whats left of the frame.

 

 

The going is slow as I can only fasten 1 strake the wait until the glue dries. So it has been in and out of the shop every hour or so.

 

That's about all for now.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by mikiek

[Keith S]

Well, if it helps, I find that kind of plywood breaks pretty easily when you DON'T want it to. Therefore it probably won't put up much of a fight there. Just pretend you're hoping it will hold together. That pretty much guarantees it'll break. 

[mikiek]

This slow going. I can really only add one strake at a time and then wait an hour or so for the glue to dry. Painful. On the bright side the sticks are going on nicely, the dividers are doing their thing and it is going together OK. I'll post some pix when the first band is finished.

 

I did realize that with the band directly above the garboard and part of the next one I will be able to glue to all the frames. That part of the frame will remain in place when I break off the upper part. At least that's what they say. So as usual, starting from the top down, I am doing to hardest part first 😒

 

I'm still concerned about the inventory of sticks. There are just enough for the first layer and I see that there are a lot interior parts that are covered by a strip veneer. However, for some very odd reason I have 2 of these kits, so I suppose I can scavange from the other one. Or find some other nice looking wood to replace the walnut.

[mikiek]

First band of strakes in place. They didn't come out too bad. I was a little short of some the band marks but I'm writing this off to the aggressive bevel I was sanding in each edge. I got the stick sized properly but then sanded the bevel which reduced the width a bit. I do like doing the beveling - plank edges fit together real snug that way.

 

Next I think I will do the bottom band. I know this is going to require some stealers to cover the deadwood. I've been saving every scrap of stick that I cut, hoping it will be enough for this purpose.

 

Here's a few pix - nothing too exciting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thing the kit has that I hadn't seen before. It's a brace piece that sets down on the frames from the top. It seems to help keep the frames square. It will be removed at the same time I break off the frames.

[mikiek]

Still working on the bottom band. One more stick on each side. I forgot how difficult this one can be, as the sticks really need a LOT of shaping at the end that fits into the stem.

 

Interestingly, I may not need any stealers to complete this band. I always seem to have luck planning out the bands. There's always a potentially troublesome spot if your strake has to lay halfway on deadwood and halfway on a frame. Amazingly, the strakes are falling where the edge meets the bottom edge of the frame. This gives a nice tight fit. From what I can see I may not need any stealers at all. Go figure 😏

 

Thinking ahead, if the bands are marked A,B,C,D with A being the uppermost (completed) and D being the band above the garboard (in progress), I'll probably do B next. I have found in previous builds it can be helpful to recalculate the bands when there's 2 left. I have sometimes just combined the 2 into 1. We'll see.

 

Will have pix when I finish band D. Hopefully tomorrow.

 

As I stated early on, this kit does not seem to draw a lot of interest. Maybe because there are several similar builds. Anyways, I feel like I have been talking to myself up to this point. And I guess I have been 🙃

[Richard44]

48 minutes ago, mikiek said:

 

As I stated early on, this kit does not seem to draw a lot of interest. Maybe because there are several similar builds. Anyways, I feel like I have been talking to myself up to this point. And I guess I have been 🙃

I'm following your build 🙂. Can't really offer any advice at the moment as I planked my launch years ago - and there is no chance that I can remember what I did back then 😁.

 

[mikiek]

Hello Richard - It's nice to see someone around. I used to do these logs so maybe I could help others with problems I run into. These days I do them so that I can remember what I did 6 months ago.

 

What do you think of Pegasus? I have that one on the shelf. I almost broke it out, but decided on something smaller for this build.

[Richard44]

Hi Mike,

 

I'm enjoying Pegasus. It's a good kit and there are plenty of build logs to read for advice at different times of the build. I have done quite a few modifications, using Antscherl & Herbert's treatise, The Fully Framed Model as a guide. Amati's instructions could have been better, but they're brilliant compared to Panart's for the launch.

 

Later in your build, you will find that some of the instructions are not in a logical order, and the plans are often confusing. Still, once finished, it makes into a nice model.

 

Cheers

[mikiek]

Richard - I am really glad to see your Lancia build log. I'm not sure how I missed it when I was searching. I know it will come in handy when I get further along. You taught me one thing already. I had never heard of a flexible rule, but I can see where it would be useful. I ordered one from Amazon.

 

I'm glad your on board!

[mikiek]

Well it took most of the evening but the lower plank band above the garboard is complete. Everything just kinda fell into place. The deadwood is covering up and it doesn't look like I am going to need a single stealer for the entire layer. I should have 2 sticks left over for use on interior parts. This time I gave myself a little extra width when measuring the strakes so I could still get after the beveling. Looks like that worked well also as the last strake on each side landed right at the band mark.

 

I guess this will go faster when I do the 2nd and 3rd layers as there will be a base to glue to. Man I hate these multi layer plank jobs 😖

 

After finishing I went back with some detail files and opened up the rabbets a little. I filed down the edges of the planks in the rabbets to provide a little more room.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Widened the rabbets and filed down the wood in them to make a little more room. I still don't think it will hold 2 more plank layers.

 

 

G'nite.

[Haliburton]

Hi Mike, looking good!  Three plank layers?  Is that unique to Panart?  Scott

[reilly]

Can you just double plank rather than try to make room for a third planking?

 

Bob

 

[mikiek]

Scott, Bob - As I have mentioned on every multiple layer build I have done - I HATE IT!!! 😬 Just do it right the first time! I have always wondered about reducing layers designed into a kit. While I have never tried it, I have had knowledgeable sources remind me that a lot of the placement of other parts down the road, on say a 3 layer planking, is dependent on those measurements. If I went from 3 layers to 2 (or 1) caprails would be too wide. Who knows what else.

 

This one even gets more bizarre because you can't glue the upper 2/3's of the planks to the frames because the frames are going to be torn out. It leaves IMO a very sloppy first planking because try as you might, you will not get a snug fit of the unglued planks around the frames. As I finish the last few planks of the first layer I have a very ugly fit around the frames.

 

I can only hope with that the 2nd layer (which is limewood instead of walnut) things will start to firm up somewhat. And if you think about it, the limewood layer is not even going to show up anywhere.

 

I believe because of the small actual size of the boat and the relatively big scale, they had to add more beef to the planking to make it look right. Trying to cut back to 2 layers would have meant 2 layers of extremely thick walnut sticks. They were hard enough to work with as they are right now.

 

Ehh - just a challenge I wasn't expecting 😒

[Richard44]

2 hours ago, mikiek said:

Ehh - just a challenge I wasn't expecting 😒

Keep at it Mike. Things do improve once the second layer goes on. From memory, the limewood strips are narrower than those of the first layer, so the second layer strips will overlap the seams of the first layer and impart considerable strength and rigidity to the hull (you've probably realised this already).

 

I found the build quite frustrating at times, but the finished model looks really good.

 

Cheers

[mikiek]

Hey Richard - thanks for the support. This things has had it's moments so far 🤔

[Richard44]

51 minutes ago, mikiek said:

This things has had it's moments so far 🤔

There will be more....🙂

[Mike2020]

I will definitely be following this build log too as I picked up this kit a couple months ago when on sale for ~$100. Thanks for the good info so far and especially the clear pictures - with good lighting!

[mikiek]

Hmmm - I posted my return to this build about a week ago but it appears to be gone now. Anyways I'm going to give this build another chance.

 

I got really frustrated with my first plank layer. It came out really bad. Almost to the point where I was considering trashing the build. It sat on the work bench for quite a few months. The good news is in the end, not much of that layer will be seen so I've elected to at least continue with the 2nd plank layer.

 

I was considering trying to plank as called for in the plans. There's a photo of this back a few posts - very strange. Honestly, I don't see how it could be done so I will continue using my regular strategy with bands and the proportional dividers.

 

As this will be the 2nd of 3 layers it will not be visible at all so I can get away with a lot. One concern I have is, as I mentioned, the frames are designed to break out. You then add some faux ribs on the inside hull. Most of the frames have already broken off so the hull is already not exactly the shape it was designed to be. This will only get worse after adding the next 2 plank layers.

 

I'll have to see how that goes. Playing this one by ear.

[mikiek]

One garboard on last nite. I've had to spend a lot of time widening and deepening the rabbet. It's been hard to get a file down in there to take out more material. I don't recall if the plans even called for a rabbet, but if it is going to have to accept 3 layers of sticks it needed to be a lot wider.

 

I'm still having a hell of a time trying to get CA to stick to the walnut. It just won't. As a result I am having to use wood glue and it obviously takes a lot longer to dry, plus I have to pin the strake to hold it in place . So progress is very slow. I think I read somewhere that CA doesn't work well on acidic surfaces and walnut is a rather acidic wood compared to others. I did get some CA accelerator and will give that a try, but it seems like a hassle.

[mikiek]

I may finish the upper band of the 2nd plank layer this evening. Fortunately, the CA seems to be working now. I'm not a big CA fan but for planking it is very helpful. I can run a long line of white glue with a spot of CA at both ends and that kinda "nails" the stick - quickly allowing me to move on to another strake while the white glue dries. Progress has greatly improved.

 

This layer is going on much better. I think the 1st layer was so tough because after the bottom band, you can't glue sticks to the frame. All you can do is glue the edges of the strakes to each other. This is because the frames will break out after planking. Actually, almost all the frames have broken out already. I will say the 1st layer came out hideous. I was embarrassed to even post any pix. The 2nd layer is limewood and is a little softer, so it is easier to work with.

 

That said, I don't think I have seen any kit wood that was cut worse than this. The edges are all over the place and thickness is completely random. My 1st band will come out undersized because I had to sand so much to get a straight edge. What started as a 6mm wide stick probably ends up as a 5.8.  However given that this layer will not be seen at all, I guess it doesn't matter that much.

[mikiek]

First band on both sides is complete. As mentioned above, the result did not fill out the entire band. The stem & stern worked out precisely, but mid-ship came out short. I am still gonna blame this on how much I had to sand each stick to get a consistent edge. Each stick started at 6mm (at least somewhere), other spots measured more like 5.8mm. After sanding to even everything out the first band came out short. Not a big deal yet.

 

I think I will lay a couple more strakes under band A, and then put in a few sticks above the garboard and then re-figure the bands at that point.

 

Here's a few pix - nothing special to see other than the poor job I did on the 1st layer.

 

 

As much as I gripe about having to do 3 plank layers for this build, this middle layer has allowed for some experimentation. Given that nothing I do on this layer will be visible in the end. It does help with coming up with a strategy for the final layer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by mikiek

[mikiek]

The editor went nuts, hopefully this will get posted.

 

Continuing the 2nd of 3 plank layers for this build. As I have previously mentioned, the good thing with this layer is it will not be visible at all. This does give me opportunities to try things that I wouldn't do on an outer layer.

 

My first screw up, after completion of the 1st band there are some pretty big misses midship. On the bow & stern the strakes landed exactly where I planned. However midship, there is almost a full plank (6mm) shortage. That is going to have to be filled somehow. Fortunately the dividers will help recalculate that space.

 

The bigger screw up is not paying attention to the spacing at the bow.

 

 

As you might see, midship will still require about 9-10 strakes, however at the bow there's room for about 4-5. Can you say filler planks? I did a prototype to turn 1 stick into 2.

 

I apologize for the poor focusing, not sure what happened, but you get the idea. As I said, this started as a prototype but I may well just glue this into place and then extend additional sticks to the stern from there. I did make identical copies of the 3 pieces so I can do the same to both sides. Most likely there is going to be at least 2 sets of these needed.

 

I have also taken one new step (at least for me). I am using Chuck's videos on planking a bow to handle the bow curvature of this build. Amazingly I have never needed to do this. With previous builds I have always been able to "strongarm" the planks/strakes into place. I missed this with the  1st layer and given the only gluing option was edge to edge (nothing glued to the frames) created a real mess. So on the 2nd layer I am actually bending strakes per the videos. The 2nd planking is looking a lot better.

 

 

I probably could have done the same for this build, but given the limitations of the 1st plank layer, something needed to be done to improve the structural integrity of the hull. So I will not go into detail (view Chuck's planking vids for that) I did start edge bending at about the 9th strake - in hindsight way too late.

 

There's gonna be some major adjustments before this layer is completed. Fortunately I can learn from it and no one else will see.

Edited March 23, 2022 by mikiek

[mikiek]

OK - so we are now really into stealers. Magically combining 1 stick into 2. There is a huge bulge just forward of mid-ship. Also very limited space at the bow.The bulge has to be filled without maxing out sticks at the stem.

 

 

Once again, sorry for the poor focus, but I think you can see where this is headed.

 

I'm getting down to some major shaping on the next few strakes. As can be seen here.

 

 

I am starting to consider a short filler plank to even out the gap. Unfortunately, it could take 2 to really do the job. I am whittling down the count of sticks for this middle layer of planking. As long as there is no other requirement for these sticks, I should be OK. Crossing fingers 🤫

 

I am planning on repeating the identical planking on the other side, before finishing out this band. I have made a bunch of the single stealer starter planks to hopefully duplicate what I did on the starboard side.

[CiscoH]

whats really amazing is how good a job you did on first planking with so few bulkheads, especially at the bow.  maybe the thought was by the 3rd planking you have sanded everything into a smooth curve?  anyways the 2nd layer is much improved

[mikiek]

Thank you Cisco - if you could see the 1st layer up close you might think differently😀 I didn't bend any planks on that layer and I think that was part of the problem. The other problem was trying to glue walnut sticks together using CA. It just didn't work, meaning I was having to glue and then pin sticks together with white glue. Then wait for the glue to dry. CA has always been my "nails" during planking.

 

The 2nd layer has really straightened out and the hull is a lot more solid now.

 

Thanks for looking in.

[mikiek]

I wanted to get the port side caught up with starboard. Second verse, same as the first (just in reverse). Both sides look a little odd because the stealer piece is some walnut left from the 1st layer. Those sticks are a little wider than the 2nd layer limewood (7mm vs. 6mm) so it gave me a tad more to work with - I'll take anything I can get. The final layer is 6mm walnut and I have 1 stick of the 7mm walnut left. It will be close, but least it will all match.

 

I've been doing this all by eyeball. No real plan and the dividers are out the window on this layer. I will need a better strategy for the final layer.

 

It's about to get interesting. The widest remaining space for this layer is about 5 1/2 sticks. No way that's going to fit at the bow. Will have to continue the stealers - at least 2 more plus 1 final whole stick.

 

The stern will be even wilder. There's a pretty narrow space about 3" up from the stern. Then it widens a little at the edge of the stern. Some serious shaping to come.

 

Pardon me if this is not all that interesting, but I am kinda making notes to self so I remember everything when I begin the 3rd layer.

 

I will say I am pretty happy with how the 2nd layer is turning out. The hull is much more solid now. It was pretty scary at the end of the 1st layer planking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mikiek]

As claimed earlier, this is getting interesting. I did a little measuring. The widest unplanked area will require about 5 1/2 sticks to fill. The stern (and about 4" ahead of that) only has room for 3 sticks. The bow has room for about 3 narrowed down sticks.

 

So I will have to continue the stealer routine at the bow (probably 2 more stealers and one shaved down stick) and also begin stealers at the stern. I am still using the same 1st stealer pieces at the bow. The stern will have a much longer stick that offers the same 2 to 1 ratio. A total of 3 sticks with the stealer fitting about 4" from the stern.

 

Sorry if that sounds confusing. Hopefully a few pix will help.

 

 

 

There is still a really nasty curve mid ship. I am thinking maybe to make a convex shaped piece to fill that in a little bit. I have been bending each strake to fit that curve, but it isn't going away.

 

 

Bow stealers.

 

 

Stern stealer. More to come.

 

Thanks to all that are following....

 

 

 

[mikiek]

With a stealer at both ends this is now taking quite a bit longer. Each plank has to be shaped to fit at both ends with the goal being to close down the widest area (just a bit forward of mid ship) and still fit in at the bow & stern. I've showed a lot of pix of the final result of each strake installed. But have not yet shown a shaped strake before gluing. So here is the next stick, shaped but not yet glued.

 

 

Here's where it needs to go.

 

 

And here it is in place.

 

 

At this point, the widest space is 3 1/2 sticks wide. Still thinking I will need a convex shaped piece to fill in any remaining space at that point. Will wait to see how things fall out.

 

 

[CiscoH]

I have had the same issue on my AVS.  Must be some geometrical explanation for those deep curves that develop.  Options for "fixing" them are make the next plank have a fat area facing the curve while smoothing out the other side, which makes the plank look a snake that ate a bowling ball.  Or keep bending each plank to fit the deep curve, which means the next one has the same problem.  I'm excited to see how you deal with it; great job second planking!