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Posted (edited)

Since I haven't had time to do any real tinkering lately, I've done some more research into the details. My usual subject is the Victory of 1803.

 

Victory-cathead-211018_0257.jpg

 

On the left, the kit´s cathead. With all the joints and sink marks at the bottom of the cassettes, it was very difficult to get it ship shape and I also had to build in the slots for the pulley for my model. Why not do it right then? The first draft in the middle still had the dimensions of the kit part and also the cassettes were flat leveled inside, but it had the slots and a compass rose instead of the anchor symbol. It was noticeable that the beam was too narrow, which weakened the remaining material between the slots, as the large anchor had to be able to hang on it. Probably the thickness of the kit part was due to the maximum thickness of the casting, you can tell by the sink marks that even that is more than borderline ...

 

Victory-cathead-211018_0267.jpg

 

At this point of discussion I was pointed by a german forum comrade that what I was believed to be a compass rose was most probably the Order of Garter. Having a closer look I even found some catheads showing exactly those colors, white background, red cross and blue circle, possibly in original with the lettering on it.

 

Garter_diamonds.jpg

 

Therefore a new version, with a square diameter to widen the slots and also the cassettes´ bottoms  got a cambered surface, as it is often seen in contemporary sources. The axle of the rollers is now also recessed so that nothing can rub. Also the order was shown more prominent.

 

Victory-cathead-211018_0273.jpg

 

Victory-cathead-211018_0269.jpg

 

Victory-cathead-211018_0279.jpg

 

Still the edges of the slots have to be rounded and the cleat to be positioned more downwards for that its bolts do not foul the slot.

 

But now the next question to the esteemed public: Was the cleat used on english ships around 1800? I sawn them displayed in Chapman´s work and on the model of HMS Vanguard (1835) - but all of them in the frontside and not in the back of the cathead.

 

Also how was the fixed end cat tackle attached to the cathead in 1800? By a hole and a stopper knot on the up side of the cathead? By a sling around the cathead? Or by an eyebolt on the side of the cathead? All these versions I already found displayed in the literature.

 

XXXDAn

 

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted (edited)

After having finished some touch-ups, the slots of the rollers at the end are round - usually the inner edges were drilled first - and also the hole for the stopper knot of the cat tackle (or fot the cathead stopper?) is there now. Also the cleat now sits in such a way that the bolts to it should not get in the way with anything else.

 

Victory-cathead-211023_0410.jpg

 

And this leads me to the next question.

I had always assigned the hole in the beam to the cat tackle. It makes sense to take it directly behind the slot for the fixed end. However, Marquardt assigns it [i]also[/i] to the cathead stopper and leaves the attachment of the cat tackle unclear.

In my model, I had previously assigned the cat tackle to the hole and placed the cathead stopper around the beam secured by an eye. Who knows more about this?

 

Victory-Ankertest-160311_9650.jpg

 

XXXDAn

 

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted (edited)

Hi Dafi - definitely interested if you could share more detail on the Garter Star research/hypothosis, images etc.  Catheads looks stunning!  Cheers

Edited by Beef Wellington

Cheers,
 
Jason


"Which it will be ready when it is ready!"
 
In the shipyard:

HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate)

Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700)

Finished:

HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop)

Posted (edited)

Thank you Jason,

 

it was a while that I was made aware, that the crown seen today on Victory´s cathead is not an usual symbol to be placed there. At the times when the Victory was build, there was a "star" (even Goodwin puts it in brackets) that I believed to be a compass rose. But still the design did not fit with the classical compass rose, which by the way was used often for the flooring in the captains´ cabins and which looks like we know it. It is the vertical cross in the middle with the circle around that irritated me. Alternatively fouled anchors (f. e. HMS Queen Charlotte) or simple cassettes could be displayed there.

 

The one contemporary model of the Vic shows this "star"

 

image.png.5e5b70a4f3102db661869a864a60bb77.png

 

The other contemporary (?) model shows the color inlays

 

image.png.123e8314b0bd9902d5fc80d7c15a45d8.png

 

This is what L. G. Carr Laughton reports in "Old Ships Figure-Heads and Sterns"

 

image.png.450a26e2b1fe422cf58c982a8da50be4.png

 

image.png.355aad31b1023eae43a6f8a2887b2ba8.png

 

Goodwin shows the crown (wrongly for 1765 - earliest 1803) but also quite clearly shows the "star" as no compass rose

image.png.d39fd1528a7e6032f6c87945b9de3508.png

 

Here @achilles well researched model of Queen Charlotte, following the contemporary model.

 

image.png.2a0c89a30ba32e5b6b3e4029aa090eae.png

 

Quite clearly HMS Boyne 1790

 

image.thumb.png.82c08aa9b84bc0ecf6c46a60c28e1171.png

 

Also this Sectional model; Bow model SLR2185

 

image.thumb.png.c4211b02e2b98f2e263ab9fd52f08b82.png

 

And the final clue was the NMM itself, but only after I was pointed by a german forum´s comrade towards this possibility:

HMS Vanguard (1835); Warship; Third rate; 78 guns, 1835
The catheads are depicted, their ends being painted with garter styles.

 

image.thumb.png.a5b946e7e3127f634d68049000c00118.png

 

Warship; Frigate Scale: 1:48. SLR2197

"... Fittings include a pair of catheads with garter star end decoration; ..."

 

An image showing 'Frigate - three quarter'

 

And here it is again as comparison, the Order of Garter.

 

image.png.2f64bd365e5d51e675f9d4933feb9715.png

 

And it makes completely sense, as the Order of Garter was also incorporated in the Royal Coat of Arms and therefor in the figure head of the Victory 1803. 

 

Honi soit qui mal y pense 😉

 

XXXDAn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted

Well done on the research, Daniel.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Posted (edited)
Thank you for all the feedback. I was made aware that the Most Honourable Order of Garter not only was used for the cathead, but also for other decoration, her the stern of a small frigate.

36 Gun Frigate

Scale 1:48. A contemporary full hull model of a 36-gun fifth-rate frigate (circa 1801). SLR0643
 
An image showing 'Frigate on slipway - stern'
 
XXXDAn
Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted (edited)

Following a recent visit to the NMM Greenwich I can also confirm that Turner’s The Battle of Trafalgar shows the Garter Star to the Cathead. It is a huge painting and you can get within a few feet - closer if you lean in 🙄

 

Turner is the only artist that captured Victory after her return from Trafalgar, there is an extraordinary treasure trove of detailed sketches at the Tate.

 

Interestingly he also shows 4 rows of glass panes to each of the windows of the quarter gallery, a feature he also captures in relation to the stern windows in his watercolour From Quarterdeck to Poop.

 

Gary 

Edited by Morgan
Posted

Thanks Dafi, that is great research on something that is easily missed or misinterpreted, once you see it, you can't unsee it!  The cross (St George's) in the center in the center is something I've always struggled with conceptually when describing a 'compass rose'.  Even though the star itself would only only be worn by the very few members of the order, it is one of those things that is more widely used and seems entirely consistent with your analysis.  Below for example is a picture of a uniform rank star (commonly referred to as a "pip") used by officers of the 'Blues and Royals' in the British Army....not exactly naval I know, but supports the point...and interestingly regiments use their own, different, style of star.

 

RHG/D - Blues & Royals Star (Officers)

Cheers,
 
Jason


"Which it will be ready when it is ready!"
 
In the shipyard:

HMS Jason (c.1794: Artois Class 38 gun frigate)

Queen Anne Royal Barge (c.1700)

Finished:

HMS Snake (c.1797: Cruizer Class, ship rigged sloop)

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