Cutty Sark by Kevin-the-lubber - Revell - 1:96 - PLASTIC

[bcochran]

1 hour ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

I'm falling at the first hurdle today: I need to do a test piece of setting up the deadeyes for the lower shrouds. Can anyone tell me what size rope should be used for the deadeyes, and how I could have readily figured that out for myself? I have plans and reference material galore, so must be missing something. I know the sizes for the shrouds, just not the rope that connects the deadeyes to each other.

Kevin,

This is from Hackney's book on the Airfix Cutty Sark , tpi = turns per inch. We would need to convert that size to 1/96.  Airfix kit is 1:168 14 ft to an inch.

[Ian_Grant]

I think the simple rule of thumb is lanyards are 1/3 the size of the shroud or so. I see, though, that Longridge mentions 11" lower shrouds with 5-1/2" lanyards in the case of "Victory" at least; seems a bit overkill since the strain in the lanyard is divided by six....

[shipman]

Reminder....cordage used to be measured around the circumference.

 

Don't compare Cutty with Victory.....that would be folly.

 

As for scaling up from 1:168 to 1:96, unless you're going to get too technical, simply doubling the dimensions you're talking about (to the eye on a completed model) would look just fine.

Edited May 6, 2022 by shipman
additional paragraph

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Thanks everyone, much appreciated. So for the lower gangs, roughly 0.5mm +/- 0.1 should be fine. I bet I find it printed loud and clear the next time I look at a plan or reference.

[Ian_Grant]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

Reminder....cordage used to be measured around the circumference.

 

Don't compare Cutty with Victory.....that would be folly.

Yes, but the circumference and diameter vary in proportion. Longridge's "1/2 circumference" equates to "1/2 diameter" too. 😃

[LeoM]

The shrouds from CS are in steel. @Ian_Grant have you take into account when referring to 1/3 the size of the shroud?

Thanks

[Kevin-the-lubber]

43 minutes ago, LeoM said:

The shrouds from CS are in steel

I've noticed that in the plans, but think I'll try rope. Not least because until I read that they were steel, after visiting the ship, it never occurred to me that they were anything but rope.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

2 hours ago, shipman said:

Reminder....cordage used to be measured around the circumference.

 

Don't compare Cutty with Victory.....that would be folly.

 

As for scaling up from 1:168 to 1:96, unless you're going to get too technical, simply doubling the dimensions you're talking about (to the eye on a completed model) would look just fine.

  Ahoy, Shipman !    I bought a copy of the book dealing with the CS Airfix 1:168 kit ... and it has a trove of information on rigging two different ways (as well as many modifications that can be made to the subject kit).   The 1:168 kit doesn't seem to be in production, but I have the 1:150 Academy Cutty kit (one that has extended studding sail booms) - which is 'close enough' to 1:168 to use the book's dimensions (plus a smidge).

 

  OMG this is a challenging scale to try and do everything in the book 'to scale'.  BTW, the book is masterfully "compressed" ( a little like a compressed computer file?) so that depending on what presentation one wishes to depict in a model, one must jump around from place to place and keep one's head on straight.  Yet the information is there nevertheless, and applicable to larger scales.  'Saw another 1:150 build where the builder cut the extended stud sail booms and re-glued them under the yards.  Another build was the (currently available) 1:130 Airfix - a nice size compromise between 1:150 and 1:96.

 

  Assembly order is important, yet there may be couple ways to assist in the later stages - like pre-attaching blocks to the optional deck eyes and eyes placed on the pin rail ... and pre-rigging lines between those blocks and the blocks they are paired with.  The author mentions pre-mounting deadeyes to the pin rails, and pre-lacing them to their mating deadeye (already with shroud attached) might work out as well.

 

  Rob's way of furling sails on top of the yards presents a third method of presentation.  A fourth might be with sails in a 'becalmed' state ... or merely 'ghosting' along with a very faint breeze.  Ships were periodically becalmed at sea, and the sails would hang limp with the yards braced evenly while waiting for any sort of wind to break the monotony.           Johnny

[shipman]

Hi there Johnny, glad you find the hackney book worthwhile.

Early in the book he clarifies that though Airfix have always sold the kit as 1:130, it actually measures out as 1:168!

 

Considering the book was published in the mid 1970's it's quite remarkable. 3 titles were introduced, Mayflower/Victory/Cutty Sark. The intention was to guide the young modeller at the time on how to build representative ships from each time period. The rigging aspect could be applied to most ships from each period.

 

Of course, this forum will blanch at that, but for the young/amateur/inexperienced modeller wanting to get a foot in the door and broaden the mind, before, perhaps attempting a more ambitious project, I believe that's a laudable thing to do.

 

You'll find all the Airfix sailing ship models are generally pretty accurate, remarkable when you remember when they were introduced.

 

My favourite is the Bounty, which at 1:87 scale gives the opportunity to get a lot of detail in, especially the rigging.

Another plus of this kit is it isn't festooned with lots of cannons to get bogged down with.

The hull could be easily adapted to produce ships using many different and varied rigs of the time

 

There are as many ways to build these kits as there are ways to skin a cat (God forbid).

[shipman]

#187 the steel standing rigging is wound with hemp and tarred to prevent corrosion, so unless you knew better, it isn't obvious.

[KimW]

I am very impressed with cat,s heads on the catheads!I I was-puzzling out out to accomplish this feat along withe binnacle and ships bell bell assembly. I have always felt that this kit would be a good basis for a detailed. model of the CS, given the amount of steel in the bulwarks and masts. Plastic is closer to steel in appearance than wood. Accuurizing the bulwarks, wash ports and deadeyes and lanyards combined with utilizing wood ship modeling  techniques above the decks will make for an impressive model indeed. I have started this project with the Revell Germany issue of this kit. I stopped after severe disappointment with the poor detail. soft plastic and poor detail.

 

I picked up a vintage kit along with wood deck for this kit and a set of blocks, stanchions and other details. As I plan on correcting the angle of the bowsprit to its proper angle and modifying the bow  knee and adding the chain gammoning, along with correcting the knight heads, having the second kit will be very helpful. Presently I am working on accurizing Revell,s schooner Yacht America to practice and develop my metal work skills, before resuming work on the CS.

 

I look forward to following your build with keen interest. I have already benefitted from some of the information that you shared. keep up the  good work!

 

KimW

[Ian_Grant]

5 hours ago, LeoM said:

The shrouds from CS are in steel. @Ian_Grant have you take into account when referring to 1/3 the size of the shroud?

Thanks

Well no, that only occurred to me after; the 1/3 came to mind from 18th century ships. I expect wire, being stronger for a similar strain, will be smaller  than a rope shroud so the lanyards will be a bigger ratio.

 

I'm sure Longridge's Cutty Sark book must detail this, if it's anything like his book on Victory.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Shipman, you’re a goldmine of CS knowledge! Hemp-wrapped explains it. Even though the eyesight is not quite what it once was I’d expect to still be able to spot a hawser from a mile away.

 

I can confidently say I’ll never take on any model less than 1:100. Even at this scale I’m challenged to make and use some parts, and grab every extra 0.1mm of size that I can justify. 1:168 would be a step too far. But I will see if I can get a copy of Hackney, I could do with something that explains things more succinctly and simply.

 

KimW, you’re dead right that this kit lends itself to extra detailing, in part because there isn’t a heck of a lot to it so there aren’t too many critical dependencies I.e. you could easily lower the main deck without this throwing everything else out of kilter. I also have a second kit and, if I ever decide to use it, that’s where I’ll start.  I don’t know how I’d make things like the cat heads and cat’s head without a resin printer though looking at the level of detail on Marc’s Soliel Royale (Hubacs historian), you could try carving them from styrene. I reprinted the cat heads assembly using a better type of resin this week and the whiskers are now much stronger. This was going to be the subject of my first foray into photo-stacking but I have a bit of learning to do there, it’s not as straightforward as I hoped.

 

Now, I suspect I’m about to open a whole can of worms, but I’m still thinking of having furled sails hanging from the yards. I know furled on top is correct, Rob’s Glory had me noticing this more on historical photos, but models always used to have them underneath (didn’t they?) and, probably because that’s what my minds eye expects, I like that look. Is it simply incorrect, a fiction?

[shipman]

Thanks for your kind comment, Kevin.

 

Sails: There are several ways of depicting them. Hanging them as you say would have been normal in certain conditions; there doesn't have to be all up or down.

Somewhere I've seen a photo where the Cutty is moored, drying the sails. After all it wasn't seaman-like to furl damp sails, that would be begging for mildew and rot.

Depicting sails drying would be correct, but not very appealing visually as they would be just flat sheets hanging from the yards.

 

Hope you don't mind my digressions; it isn't my intention to 'take over' your posts. But I do hope to be helpful when I feel I have something constructive to contribute.

[Hubac's Historian]

Extremely helpful, I would say, Shipman, and full of interesting knowledge of ships.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

3 hours ago, shipman said:

Hope you don't mind my digressions

Shipman, I positively welcome it, and that of others. No, I don't think I'd like the flat, drying look. I think it would be hard to pull that off in such a way that it added to the vista, though I imagine someone, somewhere has done so. I'll stick with the plan, or at least head in that direction. I have my first play with PVA'd tissue paper/loo roll coming up shortly, for a tarp, so that should give me some idea whether I'll be able to do it.

[bcochran]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:24 AM, shipman said:

Thanks for your kind comment, Kevin.

 

Sails: There are several ways of depicting them. Hanging them as you say would have been normal in certain conditions; there doesn't have to be all up or down.

Somewhere I've seen a photo where the Cutty is moored, drying the sails. After all it wasn't seaman-like to furl damp sails, that would be begging for mildew and rot.

Depicting sails drying would be correct, but not very appealing visually as they would be just flat sheets hanging from the yards.

 

Hope you don't mind my digressions; it isn't my intention to 'take over' your posts. But I do hope to be helpful when I feel I have something constructive to contribute.

Here is a picture of Cutty Sark drying sails.  Not very dignified, I'd say.

 

Hismodel has these sails that are for showing furled sails.  Adding sails means adding much more running rigging as apposed to harbor rig.  That is to do it right, in my opinion.   On the positive side, furled on top of the yards means not having to add jack stays.

Edited May 8, 2022 by bcochran

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Great photo. It'd look like the cat had got at it so I definitely won't go down that tack. I guess I'll have to make my mind up about the sails sooner rather than later, to factor it into the workflow. Once I've resolved the deadeyes and pinrails etc, maybe I'll then start experimenting on sails.

 

Meanwhile... inserting a pin into the lower deadeye works out fine. In this test both the pin and rope holes are a bit over-sized at 0.8mm, I wanted to see how far I could push it in terms of remaining wall thickness. The breaking strain is excellent, I had to pull quite hard and eventually the glue gives way.

 

On the other hand, my first attempt at stropping the deadeyes through to a dummy shroud was another education. It came out fine, using 0.8mm rope for the shrouds, but I rubbed every scrap of paint off both deadeyes along the way. I think these might need to be enamelled before stropping (obvious I suppose, they'll be totally unpaintable afterwards).

 

[bcochran]

14 minutes ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Great photo. It'd look like the cat had got at it so I definitely won't go down that tack. I guess I'll have to make my mind up about the sails sooner rather than later, to factor it into the workflow. Once I've resolved the deadeyes and pinrails etc, maybe I'll then start experimenting on sails.

 

Meanwhile... inserting a pin into the lower deadeye works out fine. In this test both the pin and rope holes are a bit over-sized at 0.8mm, I wanted to see how far I could push it in terms of remaining wall thickness. The breaking strain is excellent, I had to pull quite hard and eventually the glue gives way.

 

On the other hand, my first attempt at stropping the deadeyes through to a dummy shroud was another education. It came out fine, using 0.8mm rope for the shrouds, but I rubbed every scrap of paint off both deadeyes along the way. I think these might need to be enamelled before stropping (obvious I suppose, they'll be totally unpaintable afterwards).

 

Did you make the deadeyes?

[Kevin-the-lubber]

28 minutes ago, bcochran said:

Did you make the deadeyes?

Yes, this is a 3mm size printed using a strong, slightly translucent resin. The strop bracket along with nut & bolt stand out more once painted, but are too small to really add to the model. I included them because it give more purchase for the pin.

[shipman]

Going to be fun stropping the even smaller deadeyes above the tops.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

18 minutes ago, shipman said:

Going to be fun stropping the even smaller deadeyes above the tops.

I’m glad you mentioned that. There are 2mm deadeyes on the pinrails and this is as small as I’ll go. So what I probably need to do now is work out the sizing using 2mm at the top and scale to suit working down. The real ship had loads of different sizes but it’s not realistic for me to try to replicate that.

[Ian_Grant]

Kevin, the way I imagine you are picturing the sails is dangling in several arcs below the yard? This could be done by partially clewing up, and partially hauling in the buntlines. I'm not sure if CS clews to the quarters or to the yardarms i.e. straight up but you could look into that.

 

I noticed you mentioned "strong" resin, which my brother also has. He claims that I could use "strong" resin to 3D print 9" oars for my Roman galley and they would be as strong as a CNC'ed part.  But I keep seeing references to the "brittleness" of resin parts. What do you think of the strength of these "strong" resins?

[Kevin-the-lubber]

13 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said:

"strong" resin

I can’t remember the scale of your galley but if the oar shafts are anywhere above about 2mm diameter I think even syratech fast would be plenty strong enough. This is what I’ve used for the final catheads, where the whiskers are  only 1mm. They make a much stronger ‘industrial grade’ resin called syratech blue, pricey though. I haven’t tried that yet. In some ways resin is a little like glass or carbon fibre; incredibly strong until it pops. I don’t think ABS-like would be the way to go for oars, you want them to be pretty rigid. 
 

Re’ the sails, yes, probably a series of fairly shallow arcs, with the canvas quite bunched up. Another way of looking at it is that I want sails but don’t want them spread, in part to avoid running rigging but mostly because it blocks the view.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Ps. I got a copy of Hackney on eBay today, all three in the series actually; Cutty Sark, Victory, Mayflower. Published by Haynes, presumably of Haynes Manuals fame. Boy does that bring back memories, of buying motorbikes and cars where having the Haynes manual thrown in would seal the deal. And needing them too.

[Ian_Grant]

Yes I recall using Haynes to work on my '79 Mustang, the last car I felt competent to work on and in which you could get your elbows into the engine compartment 😀.

[Ian_Grant]

1 hour ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

I can’t remember the scale of your galley but if the oar shafts are anywhere above about 2mm diameter I think even syratech fast would be plenty strong enough. This is what I’ve used for the final catheads, where the whiskers are  only 1mm. They make a much stronger ‘industrial grade’ resin called syratech blue, pricey though. I haven’t tried that yet. In some ways resin is a little like glass or carbon fibre; incredibly strong until it pops. I don’t think ABS-like would be the way to go for oars, you want them to be pretty rigid. 
<snip..snip>

Thanks; the shafts would be well above 2mm. My mockup uses 1/4" dowel and doesn't look ridiculous.

 

[Ian_Grant]

1 hour ago, Kevin-the-lubber said:

Ps. I got a copy of Hackney on eBay today, all three in the series actually; Cutty Sark, Victory, Mayflower. Published by Haynes, presumably of Haynes Manuals fame. Boy does that bring back memories, of buying motorbikes and cars where having the Haynes manual thrown in would seal the deal. And needing them too.

I still like the little Hackney book on "Victory". When all is said and done, Longridge boils down to a couple of chapters on rigging if you are not building a wooden hull, and the Hackney book though lacking the beautiful diagrams is still a fount of information.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

5 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

My mockup uses 1/4" dowel

I think you’ll be fine with any resin at this size, but personally, for this I’d use syratech fast, because it doesn’t seem to warp over time. I’m sure there will be plenty of other resins equally suitable that I haven’t yet tried, so don’t take that too literally.

[shipman]

#205 LOL!!!!

 

It was me bidding against you on the books, Kevin.

Sorry for pushing the price up at the last minute.

Greedy really as I already have all 3! The ones you got look to be brand new, well done.