Schrouds Deadeye’s etc mystery

[Keith Black]

 Jan, we're not told what the lengths are or at least I didn't see a length . Without being able too see and measure the model I'm only guessing. What ever the old rigging is, forget it, scrape it and start with new line. Read on how to rig it as a pond yacht, use what old pieces can be salvaged, make new pieces where necessary, clean and paint where necessary, and rig it. 

[Elmina]

11 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Mike, the two shroud lines converge at a single point on the mast. The most forward shroud line is parallel with the mast, it will be shorter than the shroud line aft of the mast. You can test this by taking two pieces of string running one piece from the most forward deadeye parallel to the mast and the other piece of string from the aft most deadeye to the mast. When removed you'll see that the lengths differ. 

Thank you Keith I have already done that and for some odd reason one side is still wat to short. Very puzzeling

[druxey]

The only other explanation is that whoever rigged the model originally made one shroud leg too short (or long!) so that the upper deadeyes were not level with each other as they should be.

[Roger Pellett]

Keep in mind that you’re not replicating rigging for an actual ship.  You are restoring an antique.  That is why I suggested paying particular attention to attachment points.  If I understand your photos there are only two chain plates (attachment points) per mast, per side.  Ordinarily I would agree, two shrouds made from one line looped around the mast head secured to the chain plates using the deadeyes from the original rigging.

 

However as the cliche goes, “ it’s complicated!”  The model builder included a separate topmast and a spreader.  Using your two chain plates would mean one shroud from the mast head to the first chain plate and a second from the topmast head passing over the end of the spreader and down to the second chain plate.  See sketch below.

 

Oops!  Looking at your photo again, I see that the model builder chose a shortcut.  Instead of adding a third chain plate he piggybacked a second deadeye on the forward chain plate to account for the topmast shroud from the spreader.  Even though not actual practice I would not add a third chain plate.  I would duplicate what the original builder chose to do.

 

Roger

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[cotrecerf]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:10 AM, Dr PR said:

Mike,

 

The shrouds will not be the same length exactly. The forward shroud is close outboard of the mast and the aft shroud is farther back. Since the mast has some rake (leans aft) the distance from the deadeyes to the mast top will be a bit different.

In Steels Elements and Practice of Rigging there is described the making of Shround and how to come to the necessary lengths from fore to aft of the respective mast:

 

David Steel: The Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship

 

186*Shrouds made in the house

 

RIGGING PREPARED IN THE HOUSE.

 

THE RIGGING FOR THE LOWER MASTS.

 

SHROUDS. The cablet is warped round two iron fids, fixed in the floor, as distant from each other as the first warp is long. The length, which is the distance from the top of the bolsters at the masthead to the foremost dead-eye, is specified in the Table of Dimensions. One end of the cablet is made fast to the lower fid, and passed round the upper fid; and so on, alternately, one turn close to the back of the other, and each hauled tight by hand. The additional length, gained by the turns lying round each other, is sufficient for the lengthening of each pair of shrouds, as they rake aft. When the whole gang of shrouds are warped out, the bights at the lower end are cut through, in a strait direction with the fids.

 

The upper bights are designed for the eyes, and are marked round the middle, beginning at the inner one, with one piece of spun-yarn knotted, two for the second; and so on for the number required.

 

The outer turn is called SWIFTERS; and they are left four or five feet at each end longer than the shrouds, and have an eye spliced in them the circumference of the mast-head.

 

The shrouds, when cut to their length, are got up and stretched thus for worming: at the end of each length is made a bend; one end is passed through a pair of slings, fixed round a post, at the lower end of the house, and the other end through the strap of a treble block, and a fid thrust through each bend. The treble block is connected by its fall to a double block, lashed round a post, at the upper end, thus: The standing part of the fall is fastened to the becket, at the **** of the double block; then reeved through the first sheave of the treble block, then through the first sheave of the double block on the same side, and so on alternately, and the fall carried and attached to the windlass by three or four round turns. The windlass is put in motion by men, with levers, or handspecs, and each length thus stretched, hand-tight.

[Dr PR]

Actually, some vessels did have "piggybacked"  shrouds - two per chain plate. See Petersson's "Rigging Fore-And-Aft Craft" page 73 for an example. It was taken from a period schooner model.

 

Two shrouds to the lower mast top was common on schooners without square sails. Often there were no ratlines. The beauty of the fore-and-aft rig was that almost everything could be done from the deck, without anyone going aloft. If you needed to go aloft you climbed the mast hoops or were pulled aloft with a tackle.

[Elmina]

Thank you all so much for brain storming for me .

As embarrassing as this is I am so glad to have realized it. The odd length Schrouds I have been struggling with are actually bow sprit Schrouds with remnants of rat lines . This actually helps me and actually gives me the answer as to what the smaller bow connection was for . It also allows me to Rig the mast Schrouds down to the chain bar evenly , and utilize the odd length set of Deadeye to go up to the spreader and top mast.  Everything points to that and I have the proper amount of Deadeyes etc . The only mystery left on this leg of my journey is to find out what the smaller upper bow stem connection point , above the bobstay was intended for.  Thanks again everyone for brainstorming 

 

[druxey]

Interesting. Normally bowsprit shrouds do not have ratlines! Well done for solving that mystery.

[mtaylor]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Interesting. Normally bowsprit shrouds do not have ratlines! Well done for solving that mystery.

Didn't many of the bowsprit stays have a zig-zag pattern to running of what's being called "ratlines"?  It would be one line run back and forth from the tip of the bowsprit to the hull.  I don't remember it's just on few ships (types and countries) or just done during a timeframe in history.

[Keith Black]

Just now, mtaylor said:

Didn't many of the bowsprit stays have a zig-zag pattern to running of what's being called "ratlines"?

 Mark, I was thinking the same thing. I didn't/don't know their name or what purpose they serve other than adding additional strength. 

[mtaylor]

2 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Mark, I was thinking the same thing. I didn't/don't know their name or what purpose they serve other than adding additional strength. 

Thanks Keith.  I haven't totally lost my marbles yet.

[Dr PR]

Underhill ("Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier," Plate 45,  page 250) calls the ladder-like lines running between the bowsprit shrouds (or bowsprit guys) and foot ropes the "stirrups." They "hang" from the guys to support the foot ropes, although they do not hang beneath the guys but angle inboard to the foot ropes.

 

While these lines (and nets in the same position) might make working on the bowsprit and jib boom safer, one of their purposes was to catch sails when they were lowered and prevent them from dragging in the water.

 

Note: This shouldn't be confused with stirrups hanging from spars to support the foot ropes, although they serve the same purpose.

 

 

Following this nomenclature, the upper lines from the plates on the sides of the hull would be the bowsprit guys and the lower lines would be the foot ropes, with stirrups between them.

 

The upper (smaller) plate on the stem might be for an inner bobstay, while the larger one at the waterline would be an outer bobstay. At least this gives you an excuse to rig them all.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Dr PR

[Elmina]

4 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Underhill ("Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier," Plate 45,  page 250) calls the ladder-like lines running between the bowsprit shrouds (or bowsprit guys) and foot ropes the "stirrups." They "hang" from the guys to support the foot ropes, although they do not hang beneath the guys but angle inboard to the foot ropes.

 

While these lines (and nets in the same position) might make working on the bowsprit and jib boom safer, one of their purposes was to catch sails when they were lowered and prevent them from dragging in the water.

 

Note: This shouldn't be confused with stirrups hanging from spars to support the foot ropes, although they serve the same purpose.

 

 

Following this nomenclature, the upper lines from the plates on the sides of the hull would be the bowsprit guys and the lower lines would be the foot ropes, with stirrups between them.

 

The upper (smaller) plate on the stem might be for an inner bobstay, while the larger one at the waterline would be an outer bobstay. At least this gives you an excuse to rig them all.

That all makes sense , I wish I could see evidence of a connection point on the bow sprit for an inner bobstay . There is no sign of anything being attached to the entire length of the bow sprit . I suppose I could add a small eye on the underside of the sprit. I was just hoping for an AH HA moment where I could see evidence of something.  Thanks again Phil 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, do you know for a fact that there was an inner bobstay on the original model? I can see the possibility there was never an inner bobstay as this was a model based on a fictitious yacht. The bowsprit stress on a pond yacht would be minimal and the builder may have opted to not include an inner bobstay. Or if he did include one he may have simply tied it to the bowsprit? Even if any of that is the case, if you wanted to add one and attach an eye, IMHO I don't think you are committing restoration heresy. 

[Elmina]

8 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Mike, do you know for a fact that there was an inner bobstay on the original model? I can see the possibility there was never an inner bobstay as this was a model based on a fictitious yacht. The bowsprit stress on a pond yacht would be minimal and the builder may have opted to not include an inner bobstay. Or if he did include one he may have simply tied it to the bowsprit? Even if any of that is the case, if you wanted to add one and attach an eye, IMHO I don't think you are committing restoration heresy. 

Thank you very much  I think for now I will tie it to the bow sprit

[Elmina]

AHHH FORWARD MOVEMENT 

[Elmina]

On 5/9/2022 at 4:42 PM, Elmina said:

I was wondering if anyone has seen or done this type of wrapping of the lines from the chain plates to lower Deadeye ? 

it does not appear to be seizing 

 

[druxey]

It's called serving. It is usually done by wrapping the thread around the line on a serving machine. You can see examples of these machines on MSW and on line.

[Elmina]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:41 PM, druxey said:

It's called serving. It is usually done by wrapping the thread around the line on a serving machine. You can see examples of these machines on MSW and on line.

 

On 5/11/2022 at 10:41 PM, druxey said:

It's called serving. It is usually done by wrapping the thread around the line on a serving machine. You can see examples of these machines on MSW and on line.

Thank you , always learning something new from this site 

[mikiek]

I'm not sure how far you plan to go on this restoration. A couple of your pics show the deck which looks pretty dirty. I can't really see what shape the deck furniture is in. Sadly I can't help you with the rigging.

 

But I would suggest getting any deck cleaning and repairs done before you start rigging. The more string you have running around the boat the harder it becomes to do that sort of work.

[Dr PR]

Cleaning old models does not involve anything exotic, but does take some work and a lot of care.

 

If you want tips on cleaning this model I suggest you start a new thread asking how to clean an old model. There are some very experienced model restorers on this forum.

[Elmina]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:45 PM, mikiek said:

I'm not sure how far you plan to go on this restoration. A couple of your pics show the deck which looks pretty dirty. I can't really see what shape the deck furniture is in. Sadly I can't help you with the rigging.

 

But I would suggest getting any deck cleaning and repairs done before you start rigging. The more string you have running around the boat the harder it becomes to do that sort of work.

Thank you  I am working on that. 

[Elmina]

Hello everyone. I know I’m all over the board with this project but as I await my rope for rigging my Schrouds I wanted to start asking about the running rigging. I have a free hand sketch of all the existing attachment points on the deck.  I will have to refine it before I post It. It is very confusing to look at even for me. And I drew it. But I will start with this question. All 3 booms have remnants of what I believe is called the Main sheet . I have attached photos and also a photo of a similar setup

 would these have been functional on a pond yacht ? Also what is the eye or pad eye directly beneath the boom ?