Thermopylae by My Fathers Son - or as near as I can get it

[Tony Hunt]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:04 AM, My Fathers Son said:

I am going to have to hope these print a bit clearer as in A4, the Scale in the corner condenses a foot down to 50mm. A2 will not be full size hopefully reduce the scope for error when adapting the scale.

 

That link you put in Bruce is an incredible resource. It would appear that in September 1890, plans to convert her to a sail assisted steamer were drawn up,

I dont think i want to go down this route, there are a couple of deck plans that should prove usefull and plenty of reading. Thank you Bruce, this will keep me busy for a while.

 

Simon

 

Hello Simon

 

All the material on that link (which is fabulous, by the way) is for a different ship entirely, the screw steamship SS Thermopylae, also built by Hall Russell in Aberdeen, in 1891. It was a much larger ship (350 feet long) so I'm afraid it won't help you with your model.

 

Cheers

 

Tony

[Tony Hunt]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:23 AM, Roger Pellett said:

Had time today to look at my David Mac Gregor books for info on Thermopylae; results:

 

Merchant Sailing Ships 1850- 1875   Two references to Thermopylae but no drawings.  Says that builders drawing (hull lines) does exist.

 

Fast Sailing Ships- Their Design and Construction 1775-1875

Includes:  Hull Lines Drawing ,  Reconstructed Deck layout, Sail Plan

The Book also includes several pages of text about the ship

 

I believe that the people who manage the SS Great Britain in Bristol own David MacGregor’s Drawings and sell copies.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roger, you're quite correct, I've bought plans from them and they were very helpful and reasonably priced.

 

The full list of the collection can be seen at https://www.ssgreatbritain.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/david-macgregor-ship-plans-collection-july-2013.pdf  there is a large amount of material on the clipper ship Thermopylae.

[My Fathers Son]

I am now at the point were I have completed the basic frames for the Keel, all the Bulkheads and one deck profile from the lines plan.  I am missing one bulkhead as there were only 10 profiles on each side but there were 21 cross sections at 10 foot intervals. I will not loose any sleep over this as bulkheads 10 and 11 are all but identical.

 

As you can see, there is a relatively clean transition from the Stem or Stern to Midships so with a few tweaks, I think these are a fair import. I have positioned these along the keel in line with the original drawing and these line up quite well with the Keel so I am happy with this as well.

 

However, I wish I could say the same for the deck. I used the line drawing to produce profiles where I thought the Main deck should be. It lines up just below the fordeck but thats it.

 

If you look at where I have highlighted, you will see that the deck does not extend all the way to the edge.

 

I will import the deck overview and scale it to see if that gives me a better result. 

 

Then I have to lean how to remove the bits that overlap between Keel, Bulkheads and Deck.

 

Still a long way to go. 

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

I have now completed all the basic bulkheads, keel and three decks and am now in the process of lining them all up. This is a long job as it means going into the bulkhead and seeing where the deck and keel overlaps. I remove the slots and save the Bulkhead. I then go into the keel and cut out the slot for the bulkhead. Lastly, I go back into the deck(s) and add the slots and adjust the size to ensure they line up with the bulkheads. 

This all sounds relatively simple, just time consuming, but everytime you re-open a sketch to adjust it, you undo the constraints and it is murder getting these back in place. This has to be perfect before you can close this and the solid drawing of the part will accept the changes and update. You cant move on until each part is completed in sequence. My old mum said patience is a virtue! Well, I must be a bleeping saint by now, lol.

 

FreeCAD is what is says on the tin, Free, so I am not going to complain, but there are things that users need to be aware of before you embark on a project. There is no real Manual. There are lots of user groups and YouTube videos , some better that others, the one I have been using is the series under FreeCAD 0.20 for Beginners. You need the sound on, the guy that creates these talks you through a lot more than he actually shows but he knows his stuff and he teaches it at just the right level.

 

If I was doing this again, I would be more organised from the start. You cant move files around like you can in Windows. So to keep things together, I would import all my images in one go so they are not spread out all amoungst the miriad of construction files.

 

The Construction files can be created in groups such as Keel, Bulkheads, Decks. I can create new folders for Deck Houses, Masts, Yards etc but once a file has been created, it is not easy to move it.

 

Bat, as I said, it is created and maintained by people providing their time and expertise for free so I will not look a a gift horse in the mouth.

 

One thing I have to learn how to do is to introduce a curvature to a deck. I have seen a Tutorial that shows how it can be done but that is an advanced class and I am not there yet. I have only just learned how to set a deck at an angle.

 

Simon

 

[Keith Black]

 That's awesome stuff, Simon. Way beyond the abilities of my old brain. 

[My Fathers Son]

I have made some progress today but this is very time consuming. I am sure there are short cuts to do repetive tasks but I have yet ti find them. I had to redo the Main Deck, I had used a tool called a B-Spline but subsequently discovered you cant break into these to cut the slots. So I used Arc's fore and aft and a series of straight lines in between. 

 

So I have finished adjusting the Keel.

 

The Main deck currently looks like this. As well as slots for the bulkheads, I have cut out the Hatchways, the Mast locations and the Access ways. I have also cut out the locations for the two deck houses.

 

 

The Keel with the Bulkheads mounted looks like this.

 

Bulkheads 2, 19 and 20 have been adjusted so they now have the slot to sit on the Keel and the cuttouts to support the decks. Just another 17 Bulkheads to go.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

Aha, another little part of the programme unlocked. I have now been able to export images at scale to the approprate sized paper size, so I should, when apprpriate be able to create a physical set of plans I can take to a printers.

 

I think I have the Keel finished and the majority of the Bulkheads, but I am not yet happy with no 1 as this should incorporate the knightheads and what I have produced so far is not looking natural to my eyes CAD is a fantastic tool as it lets you build the item in 3D, change it, delete it and start again without wasting a single piece of wood. It can be frustrating in the extreme, but when it works, it really works well.

 

Once I have finished straightening up a few curves (hows that for an oxymoron) on the decks, the next job will be the deck houses.

 

 

Simon

 

[My Fathers Son]

Well, I have continued with my lessons and have discovered how to create a part that is curved. So I could redo the main deck but as that would only be for aesthetic reasons, not to change the shape, I will pass on this occasion.  It requires the creation of two separate sketches and to combine them, something that needs to be planned from the outset, if it is to work correctly. As I have already created the part, it is not playing nicely.

 

I have also worked out how to create an export of scaled drawings, so once I have my parts drafted, I can create a set of working drawings to put this to the test.

 

NB. Orders from my Admiral are that I have to finish CS before I can start a new boat. This means I am going to have to find a way to work on her rigging without attracting the attention of my resident sith apprentices.

 

Simon

[Keith Black]

47 minutes ago, My Fathers Son said:

This means I am going to have to find a way to work on her rigging without attracting the attention of my resident sith apprentices.

That's funny, Simon. I wish you luck but you know you'll fail, we mortal men don't stand a chance against the force. 

[My Fathers Son]

Sad but true. 

 

Started work on the masts last night. Not sure my method of creating tapered shafts is 100% but anyone working from the plans would get the specs.

 

Question.  The course section of any mast starts below decks. Would you start the tapering after the mast clears the deck, from a point above the deck or where?

I am aware T had composite metal course masts.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

Well, I have found out the right way to make tapered shafts, so I have made the Masts bar one detail, the foot of the Top Masts where they deviate for the shroud lines to pass between the masts. This requires a different technique.

 

As each piece is added, you can manouver the image and see where each piece interacts and make adjustments accordingly. The original locations of the holes for the Masts were close but did not line up. So I have adjusted the deck accordingly. I have work out how to create plans on to PDF but as parts alreadt created change as later parts are added, any plan I create now would be subject to change.

 

I can't afford to spend on Harold Underhills Masting and Rigging book at the moment, but according to Frank Mastini's book, 19th Century Spars were tapered from almost the centre, with only the central section for the fittings to lift and hold the yard at a consistant size. So unless anyone has anything to the contrary, I will keep a central section of say, 1/3 of the width of the yard as consistant and then taper the balance to the minimum. size at the tip.

 

I have been having a bit of an issue with finding a naming standard for masts. The yards are easy and well documented. The lowest Mast is also easy as the only yard mounted on it is the Course, so logically, this is the ForeCourse or MainCourse. The middle section has the Lower Top and Upper Top sails mounted but the Top Gallant is also mounted from the top of the Hounds of the middle Mast. The Top section only has the Royal or Royal and Sky Sail (Main) mounted.

 

So, is the Central Mast the Top or Top Gallant Mast and is the Last section the Gallant or Royal Mast?

 

Simon

 

[davyboy]

Underhills book is available on Abebooks for just over 18 quid including UK postage if you're interested.

 

Dave 

[OldSaltf]

The capabilities of FreeCAD can be modified/enhanced by adding so called workbenches. These are basically macro packages and since I will, at some point in the future, model a frame structure (ship/boat/airplane) myself I have loaded the ship and the curved shape workbench. I wonder, Simon, whether you use any of these for your project?

You also mention, that quite often you have to perform tedious, repetitive tasks. I have been using different numerical programs with a modeling capability (but not FreeCAD) and they all come with a macro (programming) language to enable you to automate such tasks. FreeCAD uses Python, one of the most powerful, elegant and easiest to learn programming languages currently available. Have you considered writing a few macros to automate part of your modeling?

Cheers

 

Juergen

[My Fathers Son]

7 hours ago, davyboy said:

Underhills book is available on Abebooks for just over 18 quid including UK postage if you're interested.

 

Dave 

Thanks Dave, its available on Amazon for about the same. However, as I am between employment, I just cant warrant spending money on myself until I get another job.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

16 hours ago, OldSaltf said:

The capabilities of FreeCAD can be modified/enhanced by adding so called workbenches. These are basically macro packages and since I will, at some point in the future, model a frame structure (ship/boat/airplane) myself I have loaded the ship and the curved shape workbench. I wonder, Simon, whether you use any of these for your project?

You also mention, that quite often you have to perform tedious, repetitive tasks. I have been using different numerical programs with a modeling capability (but not FreeCAD) and they all come with a macro (programming) language to enable you to automate such tasks. FreeCAD uses Python, one of the most powerful, elegant and easiest to learn programming languages currently available. Have you considered writing a few macros to automate part of your modeling?

Cheers

 

Juergen

Hi Juergen,

 

I am familiar with Macro's, I have written a few in Excel and Word but a Macro would not have helped me in this instance.  I was struggling because I had completed a couple of lessons and gone ahead and used what I had learned to create parts. What I should have done is completed a few more lessons and I would have learned more about the difference between closed and open sketches, Part Design and Part work benches and boolean operations, any one of which would have made my job much easier.

 

I will need to do this to the TopGallant masts to extend them into the Hounds with the curved space for the shrouds to pass through.

 

I have had the appropriate lesson now so I will try this later this evening. 

 

Simon

[OldSaltf]

Quote: I have had the appropriate lesson now so I will try this later this evening.  /Quote

Perhaps you could be so kind as to post a link to the videos that have helped you?

 

Thanks, Juergen

[My Fathers Son]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:24 PM, OldSaltf said:

Quote: I have had the appropriate lesson now so I will try this later this evening.  /Quote

Perhaps you could be so kind as to post a link to the videos that have helped you?

 

Thanks, Juergen

You can find the series under the title of FreeCAD 0.20 for Beginners and the 1st Tutorial is at 

 

Just subscribe and you wil get a series, each one is about 30 minutes long and works through an exercise that is easily repeatable and the author talks you through the process.

 

I have got stuck on stepping the Masts , it shouldn't be this difficult but I am having a mental block on it.

 

Simon

[My Fathers Son]

My mental block remains on stepping the masts but I have but I have made a decision to carry on with the rest of the plans.

 

I have reviewed the thread on using FreeCAD and the guys have gone into incredible detail down to creating the ropes but this level of detail seems to making a virtual model rather than creating plans for a physical model.

 

So I am now just looking to set out the deck houses, pumps etc. I have built 3 small boats in the summer and I just need to check these for size, if not, then I have a couple more to make but I enjoy these, so no problem.

 

Just for an exercise, I extracted a set of drawings from my book for Donald McKays Flying Fish. The hull is almost complete bar 3 ribs. Surprisingly easy second time round.

 

Simon

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:37 AM, davyboy said:

Underhills book is available on Abebooks for just over 18 quid including UK postage if you're interested.

 

Dave 

  Ahoy Dave !   I just received the Underhill Clipper book (great condition other than some clear tape to reinforce the paper jacket) priced at $27 and change (plus $5 shipping) - and it is an excellent investment, possibly tied for the best rigging book I've found to date.  It was certainly great advice from Rob Reiderrich, who is justifiably a clipper 'guru'.  When one takes ALL the detail into account, I can see why undertaking a clipper project smaller in scale than 1:96 is not practical unless one omits or simplifies a few things.  But there are well rendered builds at 1:96 and larger with virtually all the 'bells and whistles'.

 

  There are an arguments in favor of building an 'early' clipper (e.g. the Sea Witch of 1846 - prior to significant changes in her rig post 1850) ... 1.) The hull length is  40+ feet shorter than the Cutty Sark or Thermopylae, so a 1:72 scale will about about the same size as a 1:96 version of the other ships named.  2.) This was prior to Howe's split top sails (or split top gallant that is seen on later clippers), so the early ships sported four sails per mast (as seen on contemporary artwork) instead of the 6 sails often seen on later ships.  3.)  The masting and sparring was all wood on the early ships, and there were fewer complex metal fittings that would arise as the art of the clipper developed.

 

  An interesting note is made in Underhill's book (which he admits focuses on the later clippers - often having steel hulls), on page 163 which talks about bunt lines ... There is a variation clearly shown (fig.150 on the same page) where two bunt lines can be worked with a single running line (via two 'helper' single blocks rigged to the shroud above the yard).  That way, the number of lines having to go through fairleads and down to belaying pins on bulwark pin rails can be significantly reduced.  The 'more common' way is to have every bunt line find its way down as shown in plate 34 (page 188) ... a veritable 'jungle' of lines below the the course (main sail).

 

  For a modeler's sanity, the leech lines (one on either side of each sail) might be omitted, but the reef tackle should remain.  One can also consider (in lieu of individual leech lines) variant A. or B of figure 151 (page 169), where the outer bunt line is either bent to the leech of the sail (after passing through a 'bulls eye' at the base of the sail where a 'typical' buntline would fasten) - or the bunt line can pass through a bulls eye at the leech point (after routing through a thimble on the sail face) and then down to the normal bending place at the foot of the sail.  Either way, this could satisfy a builder who does not want to entirely omit leech lines - but would appreciate not having to rout individual leech lines to the deck.  

 

  It is a relief indeed, to realize that 'slab lines' (that duplicate bunt lines on the back side of the sail, shown in figure 16 on page 17) are optional - as the text in the paragraph below the figure notes ... "the rest of the sail (is) gathered up by the bunt-lines and slab-lines (when rigged)."  WHEW, so one by no means need incorporate slab lines, as that would add to the jungle of rope to be routed down and dealt with below.

 

  Rigging for 'early' clippers can be assisted by Peterson's book 'Rigging Period Ship Models' - that deals with a man-of-war in there late 1700s and early 1800s.  Need to build  a much earlier vessel?  Try Anderson's 'The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast'.

 

 

[My Fathers Son]

So yes, Underhills book is on my shopping list. Putney Library is showing as having a copy so I might get a chance to go and look through it first. 

 

The draft of Flying Fish looks like this.

My attempy to merge two profiles via the Boolean tool has not worked for me so back to the drawing board but you can see how quickly a hull can be given a shape from just three images.

Getting back to Thermopylae, this is where I am at the moment.

 

I am debating in my head to what detail I need to create the Deck houses as when I make the actual model, I will create the basic block to the apprpriate size and then add detail by adding on strips to simulate the panelling and detail. I can use images on the plans to show the sort of detail that is due, but these plans just need to show the locations and outline shapes of the items to be included.

 

Simon

 

[My Fathers Son]

I have managed to get a copy of Masting and Rigging by Harold Underhill from the Library. I can't keep it for much longer but it has convinced me of its necessity to have a copy of my own. By page 5 it has answered one of my recent problems in determining the size and shape of each section of a mast. 

 

For instance, if the mast diameter is say, 10mm, then it will reduce in diameter at each quarter at fixed rates, 60/61, 14/15, and 6/7. At the hounds it would be 3/4. All the tables are in Chapter IX so I have a way to go to to read these. So while the scaled images I have imported show Cambells over height of the masts, I will have the tables to calculate the correct level of tapering.

Hope every one is safe and well this Christmas. 

 

Simon

 

[My Fathers Son]

Woo hoo, my own copy of Masting and Rigging arrived today. No dustjacket and the print is slightly smaller. The copy from the Library is 1965 print but mine is 1949, but the content should be the same. The deck plan is intact and the whole book is is good condition.

 

Simon

[Keith Black]

 Bob's your uncle, Simon. 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Well done, Simon.  The copy I bought off Amazon is from 1969.  The dust jacket is taped (no big deal since I'm not a book collector - and the content is where the value for a modeler is), and the exterior cloth of the book is green.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[petervisser]

I LOVE this book too. I am using it to help me with the rigging of my Cutty Sark. It helps answer some questions I have while trying to decipher Campbell's drawings which are also very helpful. But sometimes there is just too much information on the drawing to see clearly how the running rigging "runs". All the best going forward with the strings and things!

Peter

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:47 PM, petervisser said:

I LOVE this book too. I am using it to help me with the rigging of my Cutty Sark. It helps answer some questions I have while trying to decipher Campbell's drawings which are also very helpful. But sometimes there is just too much information on the drawing to see clearly how the running rigging "runs". All the best going forward with the strings and things!

Peter

  There is also Cutty Sark by Noel C.L. Hackney - #3 in the Classic Ships, their history and how to rig them (series) 1974 Patrick Stephens, Cambridge (England) in association with Airfix Products Ltd., London   They come up from time to time through Amazon (although sometimes listed as unavailable ... until another comes up).

 

 One must can get past the "compressed" logic of the book's format (done to lower page count , thus printing cost) - as it was originally made to super-enhance rigging a CS plastic model originally released in 1:130 scale, and there are optional enhancement to various aspects of that version - and also the difference between 'harbor rigged' and rigged with sails.  Although there is a bit of back-and-forth to get the big picture, there is a vast amount of info on rigging the CS (darn near every line you can imagine, how to route it and where to belay it) - a lot of which may be applicable to other clippers of that era.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny
clarification

[My Fathers Son]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:49 PM, Keith Black said:

 Bob's your uncle, Simon. 

Hi Keith,

 

He is my second cousin actually, and his hobby is making model steam trains. He uses the same gauge as the track in Tunbridge Wells park as well as the track that runs around the perimeter of his home in Crowborough.

 

Simon

 

[Keith Black]

 I love that expression. 

[My Fathers Son]

I finally worked out how to combine two Extrudes into a single solid so the Main Deck curves nicely from Stem to Stern, but not to introduce the camber athwart ship. I have been constantly refining the shape as I have been able to assemble the hull digitally, which is why I have not published any plans on here. 

 

Here is a sample of what they are looking like so far.Thermopylae Project-Page 2 3mm Parts.pdfThermopylae Project-Page 1 5mm Parts.pdf

 

Here is what the assembly looks like so far.

Simon

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Ahoy, Simon !   You are drawing me closer to 'the dark side' I've heard of on the forum ... that is, a scratch built hull - from the frames up.  As mentioned elsewhere, I've studied the 'big T' with an eye towards busting the Revells 1:96 version ... but her lines are demonstrably different enough from the CS that just changing the bow and stern profiles won't satisfy.

 

  Of course I want to use commercially available fittings (like blocks & deadeyes - no way I'm laboring over those bits) like a majority of builders, so the label of 'semi-scratch' would apply.  This seems a step up from a 'busted' kit (which is a step up from simply building a kit 'out of the box').  Now my noggin has been turning over the various ways a hull can be designed & constructed with commonly available tools, and I'm forming a novel way to do it.  'Still working out the particulars, so I won't post anything until I've got a good method and photos of a good result.

 

  There's a chance I'll fail or encounter too many hitches, so the fall back (plan 2) method will be straightforward bulkheads slotted to a keel - that will always work.  If later I'm of a mind that I like woodworking much more than rigging, there is a concept to build clipper hulls with accurate lines (and essential part of a ship's beauty) and the deck houses, etc. - but only mast stubs.  These would not require a case since an occasional cleaning with pressurized air (Dust-Off) will tidy them up.  Or if cased, much smaller and transportable ones can be built.

 

  I'm  absolutely loving all the clipper builds - past and present - on MSW.                            Johnny

Edited January 9, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny
typos