Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100

[Bill97]

Ferrus I could easily turn a new topgallant yard but I would also damage the topgallant mast as well. I really liked your idea but not if I have to do so much damage. Of course I could still display the sails that way and not move the yard if that is the way I want to display the model. As I have said before on other issues I have encountered “who would know, or care?”  That is except you guys, and me, now that you are educating me 😊.  I look at some of my older models in their case, especially my Revel USS Constitution which was my first when I picked up the hobby again after retiring, and I think if you guys had the opportunity to examine them I have no doubt you would find countless nautical errors. From then until now building this beautiful Soleli Royal right after building the Heller HMS Victory I have learned so much and become addicted to the craft. Each time I learn something new, and why that is so, it is like a new window has just opened. I never gave any thought to what would actually happen if a ship had just the topgallant sails unfurled as you explained Ian. That makes perfect since. Knowing that now and the physics of it is enlightening. So now I have the decision. Do I want it to look “cool” but down deep in my soul know it is nautically WRONG, or do I display the sails correctly, which will also be stunning?

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

So guys I am looking at a build by one of the more familiar builders. He has several videos from which these photos were grabbed. From our discussion above, are we saying this sail arrangement is not nautically accurate? It appears not. 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bill97

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Nice pics ... one notices that the ratlines and deadeye lacings are dark in color - traditionally modeled with either black or dark brown lines, as was done with all the standing rigging.

[Veszett Roka]

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

So guys I am looking at a build by one of the more familiar builders. He has several videos from which these photos were grabbed. From our discussion above, are we saying this sail arrangement is not nautically accurate? It appears not. 

 

Hi Bill,

 

let's ask Dafi. As far as i know the depicted sail set weared during battle, warships were kept their mainsails furled to let the deck clean and to minimize shrapnel damage. Anyways, this is a small Revell modell of Victory with its styrene sail set.

[Ian_Grant]

That is not nautically inaccurate. They weren't slaves to particular sail combinations in light airs. The diagram I posted depicts the steps in reduction from full sail, under a situation of continually increasing wind strength.

 

As Veszett says, in battle the courses were usually furled to reduce fire risk.

[Bill97]

So Ian are you saying that I would not be nautically inaccurate if I rigged my Soleli Royal the same way?  That was my original idea/plan that started this conversation. 😊.  

[Ian_Grant]

I don't see where you proposed that sail plan above, but yes it would be fine. Or you could do something interesting with the courses as in my print of Victory sailing into Trafalgar, below. Notice how the windward clew of the mainsail has been pulled up a bit to allow the foresail to catch some more wind as Henry alluded to above. Note the breeze was very light on the morning of Trafalgar so all sail was set, even stunsails, to reduce the time spent enduring enemy fire without being able to reply. In fact, sources say they approached the combined Fleet at a casual walking pace all the while under fire.

 

[Ferrus Manus]

The images with the topsails and topgallants out looks to be accurate. You could model that and have the courses furled. 

[Bill97]

Ian I had just said I was planning to add a combination of furled, partially unfurled, and fully unfurled sails.  And that I was trying to decide on unfurled on the top gallant and graduate down to fully furled on the main and fore yard.  Of course in the photos the top sail is fully set. I like the photo you attached above as well. Wonder if it would be alright to have the windward clew on the fore sail pulled up as well. To finish this topic I am going to either do it as above in your photo Ian or the previous photos. Thanks everyone for all your help. 

[Bill97]

I know this is probably more of a personal preference thing. I keep looking at the rigging I have done so far, especially the main stay and the main top mast stay. Maybe even the main topgallant stay. As I mentioned before I tried to reach a happy balance between the tautness of the fore mast yard rigging lines and the stays on the main mast. I just don’t know if I am pleased with the pull the rigging lines are obviously showing on the stays. Do you guys tend to lean more toward the stays being as straight as possible at the risk of a bit of slack in the rigging lines. Or, as I have, tolerate some bow in the stays to get all the rigging lined taut?

[popeye2sea]

Bill,

 

There is no need to have those braces ramrod straight tight so that they distort the stays.  Just snug is perfectly fine. And depending on which way the wind is blowing, one side is always going to be more taut than the other. It is usually the windward brace that takes most of the strain.  One would assume that it would be the leeward brace that is keeping the yard pulled around, but the force of the wind is actually working to fling the windward yardarm around and the windward brace works harder to keep the yard from coming further around. Under a breeze, if you were to let fly both braces the yard would immediately try to brace further around.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Bill97]

Thanks Henry. I will loosen them up to get the stays more straight. Appreciate you so much my friend. 

[Ferrus Manus]

I have never been able to rig a galleon and keep the stays perfectly straight, and even some museum models have bent stays. So, don't feel bad. 

[Ian_Grant]

Not an expert, but any given rope or wire stay with say nothing attached along its length will sag in a catenary curve. No real stay on a real ship is a straight line. These old-time ships with braces attached far from the ends of the stay would have to result in distortion of the stay; having the stay remain undisturbed would require the stay's tension force to hugely exceed the sideways pull exerted by the brace if the sail is drawing. I'm trying to think of an analogy but I'm drawing a blank right now .....

[Bill97]

I think I do have it a bit better than it was. I think I could tune a piano after that exercise! 😀

Edited November 14, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Ian based on your comment I may adjust to add just a slight bit of sag to the stays for little more realism, or just leave well enough alone. Will give it some thought. Thanks again guys. 

[Ian_Grant]

Oh Bill, just leave well enough alone!  Your stays look great, job well done! On to the next task......👍

[catopower]

Sorry to be jumping into this discussion kind of late, and maybe I missed this already, but what about Battle Sail? The state of the sails as they would be set for combat.

 

I believe the lower courses would be, perhaps not furled exactly, but clewed up, so they could be dropped down quickly and easily. 

 

Isn't that what's depicted in the videos that Bill97 shared links to and what he wants for his sail configuration?

[popeye2sea]

5 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Not an expert, but any given rope or wire stay with say nothing attached along its length will sag in a catenary curve. No real stay on a real ship is a straight line. These old-time ships with braces attached far from the ends of the stay would have to result in distortion of the stay; having the stay remain undisturbed would require the stay's tension force to hugely exceed the sideways pull exerted by the brace if the sail is drawing. I'm trying to think of an analogy but I'm drawing a blank right now .....

I hear what your saying Ian, and it makes sense, but I have never seen a stay on any ship I have been on with any discernable sag to it.  It may in fact be there, but it is very hard to see.  Those stays are pretty tight. Same with shrouds.  Now running rigging is a totally different story. Catenary curves abound.

 

Regards,

Henry

[Bill97]

Henry I want to mention this to you in case you have not reached this point in your rigging yet. We moved that forward knight head a little to the right. In doing that we placed it in front of the center starboard side post of whatever (nautical term) that rigging fixture is so as to not foul the main stay. However when rigging the starboard side fore topsail brace it is supposed to belay to that now obstructed post. I just tied it to the cross member. 

[Ian_Grant]

9 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

I hear what your saying Ian, and it makes sense, but I have never seen a stay on any ship I have been on with any discernable sag to it.  It may in fact be there, but it is very hard to see.  Those stays are pretty tight. Same with shrouds.  Now running rigging is a totally different story. Catenary curves abound.

 

Regards,

Henry

I recall standing at the foot of Cutty Sark's foremast looking up along the mainstay. It was a curve, tight I grant you.

[Baker]

To late, but.

A certain Mister Furttenbach had the same problem 300 years ago.
Now this drawing is an example in rigging for many 😉

[Bill97]

Oh my goodness Baker. That is exactly how mine looked before I adjusted them. It was not just the sag in the stay that bugged me it was the slight zigzag of the stay. That was the most troubling to me. Thought it looked kind of amateurish.  But I guess maybe not. To adjust a third time to get the braces a bit more taut or just move on to the main mast?  I think I will check the braces one more time to see if any have real visible slack. If so tighten just a bit. Then move in to the main mast. 

[Bill97]

Main yard rigged with parral, lifts, and tye. Also tinkering with the braces. I need to read the section on braces in Anderson’s book. Heller has the standing end tied around the base of the stern flagpole. Surly that can’t be right?  Is it? Seems a good stiff wind would simply rip the flagpole right off the deck and maybe kill a crewman. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Untie immediately. 

Rig the standing end of the braces to eyebolts positioned on the outside of the hull. Check my Galleon for now i did it.

[Bill97]

That is how I rigged my HMS Victory and assumed the Soleli Royal should be. 

[Bill97]

I still need to come up with the best idea for the running end. On the Victory after it returned from the pendant block it passed through a sheave in the bulwark near the standing eyebolt and then belayed to a cleat on the deck. Other idea Anderson shows is having another eyebolt on top the bulwark near the standing eyebolt that the he running end would pass through and then to a cleat. 

[Ferrus Manus]

I would put the sheave hole just aft and up of the eyebolt to which the brace is tied. Maybe at the very aft end of the cap rail, and right beneath it. Belay it on a cleat, or better yet, a kevel. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, you need to decide what ropes go to the kevels. The main braces absolutely do not tie off at the flagpole and should go to a kevel. I believe there is a kevel on each side which Heller leaves unused. Re-assign the kevels in a way that makes sense. Someone else's SR log mentioned this, I forget whose. Good luck Mr. Phelps.

[Ferrus Manus]

What Ian said!