Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100

[Bill97]

Allan you are questioning the line used for the spritsail topmast stay?  Should it be tan running rigging thread or black standing rigging?  Excellent question. Since all of the stays throughout the ship rigging are standing rigging, I think, I would lean toward this stay being considered standing as well, therefore black or “tarred” thread. And for a simple reason that is the color thread the instructions say to use. Again though, excellent question. Marc what say you?

[Bill97]

All of the lower ratlines tied to include the spritsail topmast. Now to add all the blocks that are to be tied to the shrouds for future rigging. 

[popeye2sea]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

Hi Bill,

Ref. photos in post #955..... Is there a reason you used "tarred" line instead of normal running rigging line?  I would think tarred line would gum up the sheaves in the blocks if used on a real ship.   I cannot find any information so far where tarred line was run through blocks.  Maybe someone can shed some light on this based on sources contemporary to the 17th through 19th centuries.

Allan

 

 

Allan,

 

I think in this case the use of tarred line is appropriate.  These are crows feet on a back stay and do not 'run' at all.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Bill97]

Alright gentlemen I am now moving to the mast pendants. Numbers 96 and 97 for both the fore and mast. I am reading through pages 102-105 in Anderson’s book where he discusses these mast pendants. I can see in the Heller instructions that they are similar to a shroud pair. What I have yet to determine is where the hook on the end of lower block goes. There are a couple eyebolts in the channels behind the shroud deadeyes. Do they hook into them?  What do I do with the guys? The photo from the old Heller instructions appears to show the hook placed in a he channel eyebolt. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Bill97

[popeye2sea]

Bill,

Yes, the hooks on the blocks for the mast tackles (also called burton tackles) attach to the eyebolts in the channels, but I do not recall where the fall belays.  You could hitch it around the nearest shroud above the deadeyes.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Bill97]

Thanks Henry. In a zoomed in look at Heller’s diagram it looks as if it is tied off right above the upper block maybe? Is that what you see?  Would you do it that way or your suggestion if above the nearest deadeye?

Edited August 13, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Completed the first burton tackle on the foremast. Used the thread size I used for the shrouds. Served the center section where it wraps around the mast. Used a 3 sheave block for the top of the tackle and a 2 sheave block with a hook for the bottom. Rigged the two blocks with running rigging (tan) thread and tied the fall at the nearest deadeye. 

[popeye2sea]

The burton tackles look great. I hate to bear bad news, but they should come down inside the shrouds.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Hubac's Historian]

I’m sorry to agree, but that is the case.  Perhaps you can fish them through the shrouds up at the masthead, with a sewing needle to open a space.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Hubac's Historian

[Bill97]

You know guys I wondered that same thing and actually rigged them on the inside of the shrouds first but then after studying the instructions drawings thought maybe they belonged on the outside. I read through the section in Anderson’s book but could not come up with an answer. I was honking of asking you guys but thought you might say “well you dumb **** of course they go on the outside”.  This will be an easy fix. Just loosen the rope, slip hook out of eyebolt and move block around the back. Twenty minutes tops. Should have checked in earlier cause now I have to move all four 😊.  I attached a photo of one initially on the inside  

[72Nova]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying do here Bill?, you had already rigged the pendants for these tackles back in post #899 with thimbles instead of blocks, usually one fiddle and one double, from there you would rig the tackle and falls, I'm not aware of any additional mast tackles that would be taken to the masthead above the shrouds and stay?

 

Michael D.

[popeye2sea]

Bill, now that I look at your last photo I see that Michael has a good point.  I was going to tell you that the pendants were rigged before the shrouds went over the mast head. You can simply seize the upper block of the burton tackles to the thimbles on your pendants, which are already hanging inside the shrouds.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Bill97]

Well Michael I think I am trying to do double work 🤔. Reading Anderson’s book page 92 he says the “ first thing to do is to fit the tackle pendants.” I knew them from building my Victory with thimbles. So I made them. Step 1.  Then I hung the shrouds. Later in his book, page 102 he says “When the shrouds and stays have been set up it is time to fit the tackles.” The Heller instructions show two tackles and two empty pendants. I think I maybe foolishly viewed that as being a total of 4 tackle pendants per side of the mast. Two with thimbles and two with tackles attached with hooks to the channel. I am guessing that is not the case. Not sure I will remove them or not. I will have to think about what to do at the main mast. 
 

Marc and Henry it was a quick fix but now according to Michael I doubled up some work. Oh well no real harm doing extra work. 

[Bill97]

So Henry I think we are discussing this at the same time. So would you just remove the new pendants I wrongfully added on top the shrouds today?  I could remove them, edge up the shrouds on the mast, and slip these tackles under the shrouds. Not sure which I like the best, the thimbles, or the tackles?

[Bill97]

Well tomorrow is a new day in a he ship yard. Will fix and cleanup all this screw-up!  Thanks guys for your guidance. I am truly still learning so much each day, and I honestly appreciate it. This was simply a case of reading to much into the directions. So no pendants on top the shrouds. Now that I reread Anderson’s instructions with my knew knowledge it is clear what he is telling a builder to do. 

[Bill97]

I think this diagram in the older version of the Heller instructions was partially the cause of my screwup yesterday. After our discussion I looked back at this diagram I think as following yesterday. It incorrectly shows the pendants stacked on top the shrouds. Subassembly 37D and 37E are the pendants. Then it further appears to show the pendants coming down through the tree and on the outside of the shrouds. The newer instruction version does redefine those lines more correctly. 

[Bill97]

Ok gentlemen correction made to my screw up yesterday.  I took the thimbles off and replaced them with the upper blocks of the tackles. Henry I tried your idea of just lashing the blocks to the thimbles but I just could not get a look I was satisfied with. Would the falls which I now have tied at a deadeye have further coiled on the deck for the crew to access?  Also need an opinion. I still have the pendants on the main mast with just thimbles. Would have been appropriate for there to be tackles mounted on the foremast and just thimbles on the main?  Should I also change them out or display the different functions of the pendants by leaving them with thimbles only?

[72Nova]

Now that looks appropriate Bill👍 and I would do the mains the same way.

 

Michael D.

[Bill97]

Thanks Michael.

[Hubac's Historian]

Much better, and yes, I agree with Michael.  Good recovery, Bill.

[popeye2sea]

It is unanimous then.  I fully concur with Michael and Marc.

[Bill97]

Thank you gentlemen. Started switching the mainmast pendants from thimbles to blocks and will rig the tackles today. Then I will need to follow up with the two on the mizzenmast. Will then need to study the instructions to see where I go next. 

[Bill97]

Pendants and tackles fitted for main and mizzenmast. It is tricky to get the threads to run straight between the blocks of the tackle without crossing. I was eventually able to get all 10 tackles straight and acceptable. I now have to decide what to work on next. Instructions show adding and rigging the two yards on the bowsprit. Where would you guys go next?

[popeye2sea]

I would fit the tops with all their gear pre assembled, and the remaining rigging that goes around the mast heads. Once the lower masts are relatively complete and secure, then I would move on to the sprit yards and the topmasts.

 

You could consider crossing the main yard.  The reasoning here is that it will become increasingly difficult to get rigging in close to the masts as you go along.  Most of the rigging belays from the centerline outwards as you move up the masts. But, everyone has their own order of doing the rigging.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

Edited August 15, 2023 by popeye2sea

[GrandpaPhil]

Soleil Royale is looking good!

[Bill97]

Henry your suggestion is right out of the old Heller instructions. It shows moving on next to the tops. The newer addition moves toward  the sprityards. 

[Ferrus Manus]

What i do to solve the issue Henry is talking about is i rig the yards/sails, and then haul them up to the masts. The only issue with this is the inner blocks for the subsequent sheets, but you could solve that by not doing the parrels until the very end. 

[Bill97]

Was looking over my future direction and noticed I had yet to install the mizzenmast stay 😳!  Of course had to do that next. As with the fore and main masts I built a stay with a mouse at the top and a block at the bottom. I also made a collar to go around the base of the main mast and added a block to it. Both blocks on the mizzenmast mast stay are double sheave. A lashed them together with a lanyard matching the other two stays. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Ok gentlemen a little early Sunday morning discussion. I am reading and comparing my Heller instructions and Anderson’s book on three topics. One is the deadeye/futtock shroud rigging. The Heller instructions describe the process of simply lashing a thread around an appropriate size deadeye, pass the thread through the hole in the top, and then tie the end of the futtock shroud to the lower shrouds. Simple as that. Anderson on page 110 discusses at the end of the 16th century the deadeyes were given a metal “puttock-plate” strop that was passed down through the top. A rope was then hooked or tied to the plate and then tied to the lower shrouds. This was the process for my HMS Victory. Obviously simply tying a thread around the deadeye and passing through the top would be much easier than making metal strops, but may or may not be accurate. Next is the use, or not, of a futtock staff?  The Heller instructions do not indicate the need to add one. The French Royal Louis had futtock staffs in 1692, according to Anderson. Last curiosity is the use of catharpins?  Again Heller does not address this. Anderson on page 114 has one sentence reference French ships. “In French ships, too, it seems to have been usual to dispense with catharpins up to 1700 at least.”  Three curiosity I need to be clear about before moving into this step. Your thoughts?

[popeye2sea]

Here is my interpretation of the futtock shroud rigging.

 

Don't follow Heller.  It would be better to fit a metal strop to the lower deadeye and either hook or seize the futtock shroud to it. Anderson mentions that this was the rule by 1620 or so.  Next I would fit a futtock stave. It should extend across all of the shrouds and be seized to each. The futtock shrouds should pass around the futtock stave before being seized to the shroud below the staff. Last, although Anderson does mention in his very last sentence regarding upper catharpins, that the French seem to have dispensed with them up to about 1700, I would consider fitting them because it will help to hold the shrouds in against the pull of the futtock shrouds. The catharpins should be fitted before the futtock shrouds and be seized to the futtock stave.

 

I intend to fit them on my build.  Sort of along the same principle as adding the bobstay on the bowsprit. It is just going to help get the rigging more shipshape and Bristol fashion.

 

Regards,

Henry