What would be a typical anchor chain link size for a schooner such as the Bluenose.

[jgplarnold]

Just wondering what size links would be in a real anchor chain for a schooner such as the Bluenose.

 

I need to purchase some scale brass chain to suit a 1:60 model and not sure if 10 links or 15 links per inch would be more appropriate. 10 links per inch would be a 6 inch long link in full size   and  15 links around 4 inch long links. Would the links in the full size anchor chain be 4 inches or 6 inches long?

 

The actual boat is 258 tonnes with a length of 143 feet.

I have searched the internet but cannot find any information. I just want to try and keep the model looking 'natural'.

[allanyed]

Arnold 

Welcome to MSW!!!!

 

According to Howard Chappelle,  Banks Schooners used hemp cable, not chain.  Chain cable was used for harbor service.  When chain was carried for harbor service it was stud link chain with 5 inch X 3inch links on boats more than 75 feet long so would be appropriate for Bluenose.  He does not mention how long the rode is nor if it was hemp or chain.  If you need to make a rode of chain, at your scale, links would be 12 links per inch.   Keep in mind the links are stud links, not open links but at your scale may not be noticeable to most folks.

Allan

Edited January 20, 2023 by allanyed

[wefalck]

There should be some 3D-printed studded-chains available in 12 links per inch ... 

[jgplarnold]

Thanks for your replies.

I take 'on board' that chain was used for harbor service however all the kits I have seen of the Bluenose (probably the Bluenose II) all seem to come with an anchor chain and a video I have just found on YouTube of the Bluenose II (rebuild of the original at The Bluenose II Experience) seems to have a galvanised chain (that introduces another problem of how to color a brass chain a galvanised color) AND it gives an indication that the chain links are quite small and when scaled probably would be so fine that the links would not be noticed so maybe use a scale chain which is larger than the correct scale so that it is noticeable maybe 10 (you suggested 12 which I can't source) links per inch (= about 6 inches scaled up)

Also according to the internet Bluenose II was a racing schooner at one time and so probably moored most of the time (I actually saw the Bluenose II moored at Halifax some years ago before I became interested in the model).

 

Thanks again for your suggestions and information.

 

[wefalck]

Brass chain can be first chemically blackened and then rubbed with graphite.

[bridgman]

Usually for anchoring situations, chain was used next to the anchor to take the potential

of damage from lying on the bottom. The rest of the rode would have been hemp to absorb 

and flex with the strain shock loads. Photos show the anchor on deck where the chain is 

fasten to it. 

Good  point about Bluenose being a "racing schooner", probably would not have the anchor

chain on board during a race.

Bridgman Bob

[jgplarnold]

9 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Brass chain can be first chemically blackened and then rubbed with graphite.

Thanks. What a good suggestion which I might try. Although who would ever know that it should be galvanised (I didn't until I watched the video and had assumed it would probably just be black).🙂

[allanyed]

Arnold,

 

Is your model the Bluenose 1921,  Bluenose II 1963  or Bluenose IV 2007?  There are many differences between them including twin 250 HP Diesel engines on the Bluenose 2 that were not found on the Bluenose.  Other differences such as anchor lines, fittings, electrical apparatus and more might be considerations for your model depending on which version you are building.

 

Allan

Edited January 21, 2023 by allanyed

[jgplarnold]

Hi Allan

I am reasonably sure it is the II. There are NO propellers so it seems it can't be the IV.

Mine is not a kit. I started with a Billings kit (the 600   which is 1:100) a few years ago, built the hull (planking) and all the objects on the deck but now my eyes cannot cope with creating the rigging especially threading the deadeyes (0.2mm thread) etc even with a lighted magnifying glass on a stand so I recently purchased a ready made model (1:60) and there are some parts which I want to replace as they are not scaled correctly including the anchor chain.

 

I was lucky enough to see the real Bluenose (II) tied up at Lunenburg, Nova Scotia while on a trip 10 or more years ago.

 

John

 

[allanyed]

Hi John,

Bluenose II carried two Caterpillar 250HP Diesels and props for propulsion. (See BNII photo below) Interestingly these gave her a top speed of 8 knots under this auxiliary power, half of what she could achieve in a strong wind with only sails.  I am not sure what engines and prop sizes are on Bluenose IV.  If your model has no props, it would make sense that she is the Bluenose I so the only chain would be the rode shackled to the hemp line.  These would probably be no more than about 10 to 15 feet.

 

As an aside, the following article on the transition from hemp to iron is very detailed and interesting.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00253359.2013.767000

 

Allan

[jgplarnold]

Hi Allan,

Wow I never knew that the II had two engines and props. I have watched a few Youtube videos including https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh7JZk7nHe8&t=495s&ab_channel=WillBrooks and never detected props on the hull. Looking at the Wikipedia 'entry' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluenose_II) it does state 2 engines.

 

I am now glad that I know for sure that my model is of the original. That now adds a dilemma, do I add hemp lines (to the anchor chains) or not and if I choose to do I just use rigging rope? No one who ever views my model will know.

 

Sometimes I wonder if there are modellers who will finish off (step the masts and do the rigging) my kit model (Billings Bluenose 600 1:00) and what they might charge. IT certainly has a lot more detail that the ready made one I ended up buying. The problem would be shipping as I live in Australia.

 

Thanks again.

 

John

 

[Hsae]

John, I don’t know if you have the Bluenose II book ISBN 1-55109-063-5

 

Hope that helps.

 

Hermann
 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Hsae
Better photos

[allanyed]

Hi Herman,

I think there MAY be some question regarding the description that BNII was a fishing vessel.  Bluenose II is a replica of the fishing and racing schooner Bluenose, commissioned by Sidney Oland and built in 1963 as a promotional yacht.  He donated the schooner to Nova Scotia in 1971 and it then operated as  a sailing ambassador  and promotional device.  It was never used as a fishing schooner.  The drawing brings up a question though.  It states that the anchor cable was sometimes bent to the jumbo halyard.  Is this true and if it is, why??  Hopefully one of sailing members can explain.

 

Allan

Edited January 22, 2023 by allanyed

[jgplarnold]

Gentlemen

Thanks for all your input.

 

No I had no idea about the book. Amazon have it for AUD57 free postage. Not sure if I would enjoy it as the description states it contains 'measured drawings' of every part of the boat which would be more interesting for a scratch builder perhaps.

 

I noted other books such as Bluenose, Queen of the Grand Banks by Feenie Ziner Nautical Nova Scotia 1970  and  BLUENOSE By Monica Graham Copyright 2010 Soft Cover both of which seem to be about the history of the original.

 

 

According to wikipaedia the original Bluenose was a fishing and racing gaff rig schooner built in 1921 in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia.

 

And the Bluenose II is a replica schooner and used for tourism promotion and does NOT officially race.

 

[Bob Cleek]

39 minutes ago, allanyed said:

The drawing brings up a question though.  It states that the anchor cable was sometimes bent to the jumbo halyard.  Is this true and if it is, why??  Hopefully one of sailing members can explain.

That is a very good question. The jumbo halyard would be readily available and would hoist to the foremast top, but there's no readily obvious reason to bend the jumbo halyard to the end of an anchor cable. I could only guess. Why would one want to haul the end of an anchor cable aloft? To get it out of the way and dried out in order to stow it separately, clearing deck space for the wet, muddy end of the anchor cable that was going to be coming up from the bottom?  Or haul the wet anchor cable around on the foredeck when it comes off the windlass. In a boat that size, wet cordage cable can get pretty heavy.  Two wild guesses that come to mind.

[Hsae]

John, I did find something else in my  library regarding anchor chain size, although it was for American schooner, but you get the idea. 

It is out of the “bible “ from Howard Chapelle. ISBN 0-393-03755-x

Like allanyed already mentioned. 🤣

Edited January 22, 2023 by Hsae

[jgplarnold]

12 hours ago, Hsae said:

John, I did find something else in my  library regarding anchor chain size, although it was for American schooner, but you get the idea. 

Thanks. The book also looks good and I will look for a copy on Amazon

[allanyed]

John,

This is the book referred to in post #2 and it really does have a WEALTH of information. But, unless something has changed, be aware there is no index for the details of construction for pages 313 to 683 (at least on my copy).  These pages are what the book calls a Notebook of Details on Gloucester Fishing Schooners so it is a bit of a pain in the neck to find anything as each section is an accumulation of notes by Chapelle and others that he put together in somewhat alphabetical order.   Still, it is a fantastic book to have for building the old schooners and I have worn pages in my copy from the many times I have used it over the past 45+ years.

Allan

[jgplarnold]

As I view both my new ready built Bluenose and the one I started to build both of which are of the original (1922) Bluenose (neither has props so must be the original) I now notice that the Billings 600 kit also has life raft pods which I would not have thought would have existed before 1946 (when it was wrecked). Your opinions?

Also as the original Bluenose did not have engines would it have had cowl deck vents (which also came with the kit)?

 

 

[allanyed]

I would verify every detail for many kits.  There are vintage photos of Bluenose that you can find on-line to confirm if there were funnels or any other features in the kit that never existed on the original.   It is possible, perhaps likely, that kit maker used modern information without checking provenance so some research by you may be in order.    In the end the research can be very satisfying, and for many, it is fun as well.  

Allan

 

[jgplarnold]

Thanks. I found a great movie of the original Bluenose and I not only noticed there are no cowl vents on the deck (surely they are only necessary when there are engines below deck) but also the chain plates do NOT extend down the sides of the hull as they do on the Billings kit. It's a real pity that kit manufacturers can't get the detail correct as even just getting such small parts correct is NOT difficult. I really thought that I was getting a true to form model kit. I mean without research I would never have known and really did expect such a detailed kit to be correct.

 

[Retired guy]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:11 AM, jgplarnold said:

Just wondering what size links would be in a real anchor chain for a schooner such as the Bluenose.

 

I need to purchase some scale brass chain to suit a 1:60 model and not sure if 10 links or 15 links per inch would be more appropriate. 10 links per inch would be a 6 inch long link in full size   and  15 links around 4 inch long links. Would the links in the full size anchor chain be 4 inches or 6 inches long?

 

The actual boat is 258 tonnes with a length of 143 feet.

I have searched the internet but cannot find any information. I just want to try and keep the model looking 'natural'.

 

Looking on the web found this picture, which shows the chain you are asking about, I took this picture and printed it down to the dimension of the Bluenose I am building which is Model Shipways #2130 scale 3/16"= 1'-0"  (1:64) 

I took the dimension of just the bowsprit sticking out of the boat, and it was around 83mm.

Using some chain I bought from Clover House I think the chain to use is 20.5 links per inch

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

Richard

[Retired guy]

On 1/29/2023 at 3:14 PM, jgplarnold said:

Thanks. I found a great movie of the original Bluenose and I not only noticed there are no cowl vents on the deck (surely they are only necessary when there are engines below deck) but also the chain plates do NOT extend down the sides of the hull as they do on the Billings kit. It's a real pity that kit manufacturers can't get the detail correct as even just getting such small parts correct is NOT difficult. I really thought that I was getting a true to form model kit. I mean without research I would never have known and really did expect such a detailed kit to be correct.

 

 

Regarding saying that the chain plates don't go down the side of the hull, they do but they are flush with the hull (found this out by a good person on this site) see picture below you can see them quite clearly.

 

 

 

Regards

Richard

[jgplarnold]

2 hours ago, Retired guy said:

they do but they are flush with the hull

I can just see them.

[jgplarnold]

2 hours ago, Retired guy said:

Using some chain I bought from Clover House I think the chain to use is 20.5 links per inch

Thanks for the research and information. At 20.5 links per inch the real life chain links would be around 3 inches which seems about right. Trouble is though that look so small at scale 1:60.

Have you noticed if the original Bluenose has davits for the anchor chain? I could not tell in all the videos I viewed although most if not all were during races when I believe anchors were not in place (although would they also have removed the davits I wonder).

 

[Retired guy]

50 minutes ago, jgplarnold said:

Thanks for the research and information. At 20.5 links per inch the real life chain links would be around 3 inches which seems about right. Trouble is though that look so small at scale 1:60.

Have you noticed if the original Bluenose has davits for the anchor chain? I could not tell in all the videos I viewed although most if not all were during races when I believe anchors were not in place (although would they also have removed the davits I wonder).

 

 

Yes she did have davits, would they have removed for races, I am sure they would have.

 

 

 

These Davits I made for my build

 

 

Another picture of the chain

 

 

Regards

Richard

 

 

[jgplarnold]

Thanks heaps Richard.  The Billings 600 Bluenose contained a number 'objects' of which were stamped out of brass sheet  which were to be used both for chain plates and davits. I found that there are much nicer ones available. See bottom image

[jgplarnold]

FYI

 

Not sure if you have seen the attached document which contains quiet a bit of information on building the original Bluenose from scratch (not a kit) even to using DMC cotton thread.

Bluenose Practicum Standard.pdf