Early 17th Century British Naval Gun Carriages

[thibaultron]

I'm CADing a set of Brown Pattern Cannons 1625 to 1649 for a project, and figured I might as well 3D print myself a set, also. I have the old Model Expo Naval Cannon kits, and These printed in the same 1/24th scale would make a nice co-display

with them. I have tried to find information on the carriages, with little success. Even "Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, 1600-1815" has just a drawing for one from "A small ship" and an old woodcut that has a weird drawing style.

 

Does anyone have better information? The cannons I'm drawing run from 6 to 32 Pounders. Is there any information on carriage size to gun size that I could scale drawings to? Even latter era data may allow me to make SWAGs.

[Waldemar]

 

Hello Ron,

 

Not much data available for the first half of the 17th century. Apart from the well known work by Adrian Caruana, The History of English Sea Ordnance 1523–1875 with rather sparing information for this difficult period, there is also Journal of the Ordnance Society which you may investigate. Be that as it may, any existing sources were also certainly explored by Richard Endsor and the resulting interpretation presented in his works, which are all too easy to find on the web to list them here.

 

 

[allanyed]

On 3/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, thibaultron said:

Does anyone have better information?

Coming your way via email.  Totally forgot I had this.

Allan

[Mark P]

Good Morning Ron;

 

One of the chief and most noticeable characteristics of gun carriages of this period is that they had a solid bed of timber forming the carriage base, with the cheeks on top, and the axles below. There was also a type of cannon called a 'drake', which had a partly tapered bore. These had a solid timber skid instead of a rear axle. Their recoil was vicious, though, as a result of which they fell out of favour.

 

As Waldemar says above, Richard Endsor's works do indeed have much information about guns, which are very carefully illustrated in colour, although the guns & carriages generally relate to the second half of the 17th century (although the barrels may well have been cast in the first half)

 

Another point to perhaps consider is that during the first half of the century, many ships carried a real mixture of gun types and calibres, with some cast in bronze, and some of cast iron. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[thibaultron]

Thanks for all the help, guys! I'm 3D Cading a set of 6, 9,12,18, 24, and 32 Pounder Brown Pattern cannons. 1624 to 49. Have all but the 12 pounders done.

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Example of a demi-culverin drake on my model of HMS Sovereign of the Seas.  One of many. . .   😁  Half trucks used on these carriages were not all that popular on ships, but they were featured prominently on the upper gun deck of the Sovereign.  All 102 of the guns on my model are rigged to this level of detail as a personal challenge.

 

 

 

[thibaultron]

What book(s) are those illustrations from?

[allanyed]

Hi Darius

Did you make the cannon barrels?  The one in the photo looks very nice. 

For future consideration, according to Adrian Caruana's research, carriages on British ships had two single blocks for both running out tackle and the same for train tackle, on guns smaller than 32 pounders rather than a single and a double. 

Allan 

 

  

 

 

[thibaultron]

Fantastic work! I had trouble doing the gun tackle on my 1/24th Model Expo Navel Cannon display!

[georgeband]

I visited the Golden Hinde replica in London last month (birthday treat for 6 year old grandson) and have this photo of one of the cannon. The carriage is a 'tail dragger' to use an aviation term. Clearly this is not a restored original but a 1:1 scale model so it is not necessarily correct in all respects. All the carriages on board were to this design. 

I recall seeing similar carriages on the Mary Rose at Portsmouth but do not have photos. Perhaps someone else has one to share? Mary Rose is earlier than 'early 17th century' in the original post but she could give a strong indication. 

 

George

 

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, georgeband said:

Mary Rose is earlier than 'early 17th century' in the original post but she could give a strong indication. 

Hi George,

Tail draggers do seem to be very common in the 15th and 16th centuries and there definitely is a lot of good information on the Mary Rose, based on objects from the wreck site, but unfortunately they seem to have few, if any similarities, to the Browne pattern cannon (circa 1625-1649) and their carriages.  

Allan

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:37 AM, allanyed said:

Hi Darius

Did you make the cannon barrels?  The one in the photo looks very nice. 

For future consideration, according to Adrian Caruana's research, carriages on British ships had two single blocks for both running out tackle and the same for train tackle, on guns smaller than 32 pounders rather than a single and a double. 

Allan 

 

  

 

 

Hi Allen!  Only two single blocks?  Oh well.  I just rigged almost 100 of the guns on three decks with a single and double blocks for the gun tackles.  Knowing that earlier would have save me a lot of work!    A fellow ship modeler (Szkutnik on the SoS forum) made 3-D models of the barrels and printed them out for me.  They are detailed enough to have the touch hole and emblem on top recognizable as John Browne's work specific to the Sovereign of the Seas.

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

On 3/29/2023 at 10:54 PM, thibaultron said:

What book(s) are those illustrations from?

I don't know.  Found them in the bowels of the internet.

[thibaultron]

7 hours ago, DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:

Hi Allen!  Only two single blocks?  Oh well.  I just rigged almost 100 of the guns on three decks with a single and double blocks for the gun tackles.  Knowing that earlier would have save me a lot of work!    A fellow ship modeler (Szkutnik on the SoS forum) made 3-D models of the barrels and printed them out for me.  They are detailed enough to have the touch hole and emblem on top recognizable as John Browne's work specific to the Sovereign of the Seas.

The STL files for the Brown Pattern Canons are available on the NRG web site.