Miranda 1888 by goatfarmer11 - 1:12 scale - 42 foot Steam Launch

[goatfarmer11]

And it was a good morning to fire up the sawmill and mill out some planking.  I would call this a boatload!!!🤣  Sorry but I couldn't help myself.

 

[KeithAug]

What wood are you using for planking Dennis? Are you double planking?

[goatfarmer11]

17 minutes ago, KeithAug said:

What wood are you using for planking Dennis? Are you double planking?

I've opted for Poplar for planking.  I found a board I didn't even know I had that has been in the barn for several years so I chopped it up. If all goes well on the first layer I may use mahogany for the second layer.  That is to be determined.

[KeithAug]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:14 AM, goatfarmer11 said:

I may use mahogany for the second layer.

Denis - I bought an old mahogany table which had worm in some of the soft wood framework. It proved to be low cost and very good quality wood. You might want to consider getting some old mahogany as it is much better quality than the modern stuff.

[goatfarmer11]

1 hour ago, KeithAug said:

Denis - I bought an old mahogany table which had worm in some of the soft wood framework. It proved to be low cost and very good quality wood. You might want to consider getting some old mahogany as it is much better quality than the modern stuff.

I have already told my wife that we will be on the lookout for old furniture left beside the road or at yard sales.  It seems a good source for some good ship building lumber. Thank you

[goatfarmer11]

I hope those of you following along aren't going to get sick of me but I have, for the third time, restarted Miranda.  For whatever reason, the plank on bulkhead method just isn't working for me.  It doesn't seem to be what I envisioned when model ship building entered my mind.  I want to make Miranda more in a style that she would have been originally built at the yard.  My methods are certainly not authentic to the original but the finished product may be closer to the real thing. 

 

I have started by bending and laminating some of the ribs for her. 

 

And I have started to build up the Keel to make it stronger than the one piece board that I started with.

 

 

 

I think I am going to be much happier having an open hull and after fiber glassing it should be plenty strong enough.  It will also give me places to put things like radio gear and fuel in the stem and stern.

 

I also took the time to make a build board from 3/4" melamine.  I learned the importance of this so I can take accurate measurements as I progress through this hull to make sure things are following the contours and remain square,  I have attached a sketch of the hull to the board to help maintain the lines.

 

More to come in the near future and as always comments and suggestions are welcome.

 

 

[jpalmer1970]

This looks like a very interesting build Denis. I will be very curious to see how you go about making the engine and installing all of the RC equipment etc as I know absolutely nothing about that myself and would be interested to learn more.

[wefalck]

I am wondering, whether it wouldn't be worthwhile trying to develop a lines plans with more stations for frames from the rudimentary one that you have. It is really not too difficult and can be done basically with a ruler, a compass and a flexible batten or one of those pliable rulers (that have a lead-core). I think it will safe you a lot of frustration.

 

If you don't have a big enough drawing board, it can be done at half the size or so and then upscaled. I am sure that it will give satisfactory results more quickly and with less materials wastage than the trial-and-error method.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Live steam models are a favorite of mine. I had the pleasure of restoring a near-century old live steam model about five feet long years ago. It's on public static display now and I can't get to it to record the details photographically. Perhaps they will send it back for servicing at some point and I will get the chance. Back before digital photography and cell phone cameras, we just didn't take as many photos as we do today.

 

Would you be up for starting over a fifth time?   I'm sorry I didn't catch this build log earlier. The approaches you've taken, considering the challenges of the plans you have in hand, would be difficult to overcome for any builder without redrawing the plans in a form suitable for modeling purposes, which, it seems, you're discovering require development of a suitable number of frames. Building an "as built" fully-framed hull is always a daunting task and I expect you will admit that your attempts haven't been all that rewarding so far. To obtain a fairly planked hull requires a suitable number of frames which are perfectly shaped if the desired result is to be obtained. Frankly, the "plank on bulkhead and plank on frame construction methods now popular with ship model kit manufacturers are the result of market driven pressures. Some want to build fully-framed models with structures identical to the prototype or with unplanked hulls below the waterline showing stylized framing for aesthetic reasons, but primarily, we see the plank on bulkhead and plank on frame kit models because it is a lot easier and less expensive for manufacturers to pack and instruction booklet, some fittings, a bunch of stripwood, and some laser-cut sheets of thin plywood into a flat box with an instruction manual than to provide a solid hull roughed out from a big heavy block of wood. It's the "IKEA method" of "knocked down" hull construction. Consequently, we don't hear about solid hull construction so much anymore when it's really the quickest way to get the job done (and even if a "planked" varnished hull is desired, since the bread and butter hull can easily be planked with thin planking stock of high quality wood.)

 

It's your model and you are free to build it as you wish, but since you asked for input, I will offer it. The steam launch hull at the height of its development is a rather generic shape. You can find many examples of lines drawings for steam launches published in easily accessible books and perhaps even online. It's easy enough to scale a hull drawing up or down to the size desired using copying technology. (Large scale architectural copy machines available from copy stores are the best option.) If you can't get a complete lines drawing of this particular launch, it should be very easy to find a set for another launch hull that will be so close in appearance that nobody will be the wiser if another set you find is used. You will, however, find it of great value to learn something of lofting and drawing so you can make minor adjustments if you wish. Alan Vaiteses' book, Lofting,' is an excellent resource in this regard.

 

If you haven't obtained a copy already, I strongly recommend Weston Farmer's From My Old Boatshop, available from Elliot Bay Steam Launch Co. (From My Old Boat Shop — Elliott Bay Steam Launch: New Website Under Construction) This book has an extensive treatment of steam launch hull form design and over fifty lines drawings with tables of offsets for building, or modeling, steam launches. Elliot Bay is one of the leading providers of steam launch hulls and steam plants in the U.S.

 

The construction of a hull for a live steam launch is a thing that cries out for a "bread and butter" stacked hull construction. To describe this very briefly, since the technique is explained in any number of modeling books, (see the article linked below) the hull is built by cutting out from plank stock an inch or so thick the shapes of the waterlines of the hull. (The waterlines are easily developed from the lines drawings and drawn full size using a sprung batten and weights.) These are cut in halves sawn simultaneously, with two planks stacked on top of each other, such that one complete waterline-edged shape for each waterline is yielded by flipping one of the two halves cut together over and butting it up against its twin. The halves are also cut out inboard of the waterline so the center of the waterline shape is thereby made hollow. The stack of hollowed waterline shapes are glued together and the resulting shape is a hollowed hull with "stepped" sides in the shape of the successive waterline shapes in the stack. The "steps" are shaved off with a drawknife or chisel or with a shaping rasp bit on a Dremel tool or the like and, using a negative pattern of the station body shapes as a pattern to check as the shaping is done, and with final fairing sanding, a perfectly fair and correctly shaped hollow hull is created. If interior framing must be shown, the interior of the hull can be shaped in similar fashion and the frames glued in place to appear from an inboard view as if the hull is fully framed and planked. In the end, what you have is a completely watertight monocoque hull which needs only sealing (penetrating epoxy sealer is recommended) and painting (a good enamel paint is recommended.) There is no need to fiddle with the mess of plastic resin sheathing and months of tedious framing and planking which, at present, at least, isn't going well and doesn't promise to get any easier. There is nothing to be gained by a framed and planked hull. It isn't a static model that will be displayed without planking below the waterline ("Admiralty board style") so what's the point of planking on bulkheads or frames, anyway? This "bread and butter" hull construction method is what has been predominantly employed in all of the finest models which do not have open framing below the waterline. There's just no need to make yourself crazy building what will be a less-suitable hull that is far more complicated to build. 

 

Unless you already have very accurate plans for your steam plant, and radio control system, I would urge you to start by finding some that identify the exact size of all of those elements. There are many variables, beginning with the type of fuel you will be using and how you will provide for the operation of the steam plant via RC actuators. You will have to plan the layout of the steam plant and the radio control equipment inside the hull and this has to be done before anything else to ensure that you don't end up without enough room for everything inside the hull. RC battery packs, gas or liquid fuel tanks, your boiler, and water tanks will take up a fair amount of space and you will have to provide access to all of it by designing removeable deck sections.

 

I realize you've envisioned building a planked hull in a number of ways, and I'm suggesting you throw all that out and start over in a way that you may not have considered before (or you did consider and discarded for reasons of your own,) but I'm looking a you "doing it the hard way" and creating a tremendous amount of unnecessary work for yourself building a hull that may well not satisfy your ambitions in the end. 

 

Just sayin.' I in no way want to dissuade you from building this fascinating project and I encourage you to go for it. I'm just offering a suggestion that, from all indications, will save you a huge amount of work and give you a stronger and more suitable hull in the end.

 

Here is an excellent reprint from Model Shipwright explaining all anybody would need to know to build a bread and butter hull. Building a Bread-and-Butter Solid Hull Ship Model – The Model Shipwright

Edited May 15, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[goatfarmer11]

Thank you Bob for your well thought out reply to my problems.  I had not given bread and butter a thought until now.  It has been my intention of creating more frames as I go along but I've had problems understanding the basics of lofting new lines drawings.  Perhaps a good book can help me through this.  The reason I have ditched the idea of bulkheads is to keep the inner hull as unobstructed as possible so I will have plenty of room for all of the necessary equipment for this build.

 

It may seem that starting with a scratch build is a bit over my head and starting with a kit may have been a better idea.  However after looking at kits they do not fit in my budget for this summer.  Maybe putting Miranda on hold is the best idea.  Maybe I should get more complete plans for a different vessel and build some experience with that?  I will say even as frustrating as it may seem I have still been enjoying this journey so far.

 

Lots of food for thought and I appreciate the input.  I have some decisions to make.   

[wefalck]

Denis, I don't think 'scratchbuilding' is so much more complicated than working with a kit. It's question of doing things systematically.

 

Didn't the proposal of bread-and-butter construction come up in earlier discussions? One of us may have mentioned it as a method for making a core from which to take an empty hull using GRP. It can be relatively materials- and cost-friendly, as one can use insulation foam-board for the core that is to be discarded. Fairing the core between the template stations can be done by eye. However, you have to learn working with glassfibre mats and polyester resin.

[goatfarmer11]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

Denis, I don't think 'scratchbuilding' is so much more complicated than working with a kit. It's question of doing things systematically.

 

Didn't the proposal of bread-and-butter construction come up in earlier discussions? One of us may have mentioned it as a method for making a core from which to take an empty hull using GRP. It can be relatively materials- and cost-friendly, as one can use insulation foam-board for the core that is to be discarded. Fairing the core between the template stations can be done by eye. However, you have to learn working with glassfibre mats and polyester resin.

Agreed, I think my point of starting with a kit might make it a better learning experience as having instructions might teach a better "order of operations".  There  is much for me to learn and that I am willing to do.  Whether I am able is to be determined.

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, goatfarmer11 said:

Whether I am able is to be determined.

What you've done so far makes it clear that you are indeed able to scratch-build. You just need to study some of the standard reference materials to learn the proper procedures and techniques. I strongly agree with Wefalck that building a kit isn't very different from scratch-building at all. The kit really is just a set of "training wheels" that provides materials and instructions. You have demonstrated that you already have the tools and skills to mill your own wood for a model and that is the major difference between assembling a kit of pre-cut parts and scratch-building. It seems that your weaknesses at the moment are in the area of plans and the understanding of working with them and in the sequence of construction. Those topics are easily learned. Lofting is nothing more than basic geometry and mechanical drawing, really. It's easy to understand once you know the meaning of the "language" of drafting.

 

Don't give up the ship. Read some of the better build logs. That will give you as much information as building kits yourself. Get a book on lofting. Get some basic books on ship modeling (not those that only address "how to build a kit, though.) And unless you already have a familiarity with live steam, you'll need to read up on that (a lot) because it's a technology that is no longer in common usage for propulsion systems (unless you are a marine nuclear engineer!) Fortunately, it continues as a hobby for some and the knowledge has been preserved and a few specialty manufacturers do sell scale steam plant fittings, engines, and boilers. R/C live steam is a real challenge, though. You'll need multiple channels to control not only the steering and transmission of the model, but also to control the steam plant itself. There are live steam R/C ship model hobbyists online. Look over their shoulders. One good resource for connecting with marine live steam hobbyists is the San Francisco Model Yacht Club. SFMYC – San Francisco Model Yacht Club

Edited May 15, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[goatfarmer11]

Unfortunately my "plans" have no line drawings at all.  They simply have drawings of the bulkheads so how to loft anything from them I am not sure.  I went back and checked the article of the boat in Model boat Magazine and there is no mention of line drawings there either.

[wefalck]

As you have the drawings for the bulkheads and know where the 'stations', i.e. the locations of these bulkheads are, you can develop a body-plan for the boat from that.

 

For this you have to arrange the bulkhead outlines on top of each other and against a reference plane, probably the keel in your case. Draw a vertical line that separates the two halves of the bulkheads. Then you draw horizontal lines (the projectsion of water-lines) across the bulkheads. If you opt for bread-and-butter construction, the lines should be at the distance of the thickness of the material you intend to use.

 

Now you can develop the waterlines from this in plan-view. You draw the central line, the plane of the keel and vertical to this a line at each 'station' of the bulkheads. With a compass you measure along each waterline the distance from the center-line to the outline of the bulkhead and transfer this distance to the station of the respective bulkhead and mark that point. You repeat this for each bulkhead. Then you can join all these dots with a flexible batten or bendable ruler to get a nice smooth curve. Note that in places these waterline will probably be not only convex but become concave, particularly at the boat's ends. You repeat this process for all waterlines.

 

Now you have a nice body plan for your boat and can proceed to draw additional stations to fill the gaps between the existing stations. The next step is to repeat the above process, but in inverse. For the new stations you take off the distance of the waterline from the central line and mark the respective point in the drawing with the bulkheads. Repeat this for each waterline that intersects this new bulkhead and connect the points with a smooth curve - and you have a new bulkhead! Repeat for each new bulkhead you want to have.

 

There is really no magic in this, just some careful drawing with a minimum of tools.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Wefalck's above explanation of how to develop waterlines from a set of bulkhead outlines is about as clear and concise as I've ever seen. Don't be intimidated by lofting. It's easy to pick up the basics, but it's a subject best learned by doing it. Get yourself a drawing board, a tee-square, a triangle, and a compass and a pair of dividers, flexible batten, ,a set of french curves and a decent ruler (the triangular architect's scale rules are handy because you can use the scales and not have to convert to scale in your head or on a calculator.) Then just practice drawing boat plans on paper. You'll pick it up fast and be converting two-dimensional drawings to three-dimensional boats in your head in no time.

 

There's a good tutorial to get you started in the forum's "Articles Database" (along with lots of other valuable basic information) : Nautical Research Guild - Article - Interpreting Line Drawings for Ship Modelling (thenrg.org)

 

Once you get the hang of lofting, there's no limit to the number and variety of boats you can build from scratch to plans you've developed yourself. This, along with milling your own wood, will enable you to build models of boats which have never been modeled before and will save you huge amounts of money over buying kits to build. One word of warning, though. Ship modeling can become quite addictive, and expensive no matter how you cut it. Kit builders can spend thousands on kits they intend to build some day, while scratch-builders can spend thousands on tools they plan to use some day!  

 

Happy lofting!

[Roger Pellett]

Wefalck and Bob Cleek both offer good advice.  I also suggest that you build a hull using the bread and butter technique, but first I urge you to invest in some better plans.  Good plans would include a complete “lines” drawing.  This is a drawing that shows the contours of the hull in each of three views; top, side, and end.  The end view combines views looking from the bow and stern.  The drawing is sort of a topographic map of the hull.  With a lines drawing reproduced to the full scale size of the model you can take patterns directly from the drawing and skip the lofting process.

 

But, I am wondering if you are not putting the cart before the horse, or rather the hull before the power plant.  With a live steam power plant model you need to be Naval Architect as well as Marine Engineer.  Before you size the hull, you need to know the physical size and weight of the power plant.  Do you have this information?  If you do, does the hull that you are planning to build have the displacement to float it?  Boilers, in particular can be heavy.  Your engine will also put considerable stress on your hull.  Will a planked hull with minimal internal structure be able to withstand loads from an operating steam engine?

 

And finally, safety.  Steam can scald and in the worst case kill you.  Each of the 50 US States has laws dealing with boiler safety.  In most cases they delegate this to the boiler codes published by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), and ASME does publish a code for miniature boilers.  You should check to see what requirements apply to your project.

 

Roger

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

But, I am wondering if you are not putting the cart before the horse, or rather the hull before the power plant.  With a live steam power plant model you need to be Naval Architect as well as Marine Engineer.  Before you size the hull, you need to know the physical size and weight of the power plant.  Do you have this information?  If you do, does the hull that you are planning to build have the displacement to float it?  Boilers, in particular can be heavy.  Your engine will also put considerable stress on your hull.  Will a planked hull with minimal internal structure be able to withstand loads from an operating steam engine?

Excellent point! Generally speaking, by "just eyeballing it," a hull the size of the one he's contemplating ought to carry a steam plant, although I'm not so sure about a steam plant and the R/C gear, particularly the rechargeable battery packs. The only way to tell, of course, is to calculate the displacement of the hull and compare that with the total weight of the intended steam plant and R/C gear. Calculating the displacement is most easily done using a compensating polar planimeter, although close estimates can also be obtained using a "grid" measurement system. Fortunately, manual mechanical planimeters are another fun toy that have become reasonably priced thanks to the shift over from manual drafting to CAD technology. Planimeters are highly accurate instruments which mechanically measure the area of irregular planes. The best is Keuffel and Esser's Paragon model number 620015, which will provide readings in the widest range and flexibility of scales and measurement systems, both metric and Imperial. They come available on eBay fairly frequently. See:  Keuffel Esser compensating polar planimeter 620015 great condition serial 25838 | eBay (Instruction manual PDF available online.) Impress your friends with your command of naval architecture and engineering by leaving one of these laying around your workshop.  

 

 

A well-built planked hull with sufficient internal structural reinforcement should handle the stresses of an similarly-scaled steam plant, but a hollowed "bread and butter" hull definitely will handle such stress loads and with much less work in the building than the plank on frame hull. 

 

3 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

And finally, safety.  Steam can scald and in the worst case kill you.  Each of the 50 US States has laws dealing with boiler safety.  In most cases they delegate this to the boiler codes published by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), and ASME does publish a code for miniature boilers.  You should check to see what requirements apply to your project.

Another excellent point! Pressure vessel regulations vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction with an additional layer of insurance company requirements on top of that. The criteria are based on the volume of the pressure vessel and the working pressure. In many cases, the regulations don't apply to hobby applications, but at that point insurance regulations often still apply. Besides, even if the law permits you to risk life and limb on a hobby, ignoring "best engineering practices" is foolhardy when messing about with live steam. Even if one has the skill to machine a miniature steam engine, making the boiler for it is an adventure probably best left to the professionals, at least until one becomes very proficient in miniature steam technology.  (Remember the boiler and engine must be matched to operate properly.) Fortunately, for a price, matched engine and boiler combination steam plants can be purchased from specialty manufacturers. See: Steam engines, Boilers & Boats | Welcome to SAITO’s Web Site | SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD. (saito-mfg.com) Saito makes miniature steam engines and boilers and assorted "jewelry" for scale steamboat models. They also sell model live steam kits for a variety of vessel types, including steam launches. United States' distributor: Ages of Sail, Buy Wooden Ship Kits & Wood Model Ship Kits | Ages of Sail ; an MSW sponsor.

 

 

Saito steam launch kit:

 

 

New Star, Open Steam Launch (Saito) - Ship and Boat Kits - Saito (Live Steam) (agesofsail.com)

 

 

[goatfarmer11]

Ok...now we are jumping to conclusions that aren't really necessary.  Let me start by saying that Miranda was a boat designed and built by Basil Harley in 1985.  The build was published in Model Boats magazine and this includes the steam engine and boiler that he used in her.  I am following these plans and the frustrations only began when it was suggested to me that more bulkheads would make for an easier to plank hull.  I agree with this and have only been wanting to figure out how to do this.  By removing the bulkheads and using frames instead,  the inherent weight change in the hull should be minimal.  The steam plant and the boat have been built by others and and she sails just fine.  I am not designing this vessel but simply making some minor changes.

 

As far as the engine and steam plant go I am very comfortable with the fabrication of these.  I am fairly new to steam as in I have not yet built a steam plant.  I have been studying steam engines, boilers, condensers, water pumps burners, etc. for a couple of years now.  I am by no means an expert on the subject but I consider the subject well studied and am now ready to build my first engine and boiler.  I will be using the powerplant designed by Basil Harley for Miranda so lets just say the plant "should" be just fine for the vessel.  I am aware of the proper materials and methods to build and test a pressure vessel of this type in a safe manner.  Live steam is what led me to Miranda so the model boat building is very new to me and once I am satisfied with her hull the rest can begin to come together.

 

I appreciate the comments and concerns but lets not take this project too far off its course.

 

Thanks

[wefalck]

Exactly, you don't want to red-design the hull, but only to develop intermediate bulkhead/frame stations. That's why I suggested the above procedure that only requires basic drawing tools. You can actually substitute the flexible ruler with a piece of stiff copper wire that you straighten first and then bend to the desired shape. Very thick soldering wire would also work. It has to be just some wire that is not springy.

Edited May 16, 2023 by wefalck

[goatfarmer11]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Exactly, you don't want to red-design the hull, but only to develop intermediate bulkhead/frame stations. That's why I suggested the above procedure that only requires basic drawing tools. You can actually substitute the flexible ruler with a piece of stiff copper wire that you straighten first and then bend to the desired shape. Very thick soldering wire would also work. It has to be just some wire that is not springy.

Yes, and now I have done some reading up on the subject I am going to attempt to try this soon.  Perhaps a little practice and I will build a basic understanding and confidence of the procedure.  Thank you.

[Bob Cleek]

"Thread drift" is an inherent danger is any forum discussion.  It's just as well to head it off at the pass. Back to the subject of hull construction:

 

You are certainly free to build your hull however you wish and, regardless of the construction method you choose, you will have to do some drawing to generate additional transverse body sections, as Wefalck has described so well. That said, I would urge you to carefully study the shape of the classic steam launch hull in which "form follows function." The shape has been developed with speed  and the high-torque low-RPM steam engine's power in mind. (One determining factor being the necessity of the larger diameter higher pitched steam propeller.) Framing and planking the elegant shape of the steam launch's elliptical fan tail counter stern is, in my experience, the most complex and difficult framing and planking job of all stern shapes. Contrasted with the ordinary transom stern where the planks run fairly flat to a relatively vertical sternpost and are "sawed off" at the transom, the fantail launch stern with its long shallow run aft, requires that the planks take a significant twist between the point of maximum beam and the sternpost rabbet, which transitions from relatively vertical at the keel to relatively horizontal at the deck. Therefore, I strongly urge you to seriously consider employing the "lift" or "bread and butter" construction method for such a model hull. The relative difficulties between the alternative construction methods in this instance are at opposite ends of the difficulty spectrum.

 

See: https://www.gartsideboats.com/custom-boatbuilding/22-foot-steam-launch-design-123.html for a sequential photographic demonstration of the construction of a plank on frame steam launch hull. (Plan and photos below from Paul Gartside's website.)

 

 

 

https://www.gartsideboats.com/custom-boatbuilding/22-foot-steam-launch-design-123.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Innisfree]

10 hours ago, goatfarmer11 said:

...I am following these plans and the frustrations only began when it was suggested to me that more bulkheads would make for an easier to plank hull...  

I'm sorry. Unsolicited commentary is, apparently, one of my character flaws. I see you are headed for great things with this build and I continue to watch and learn right alongside you. 

[goatfarmer11]

2 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I'm sorry. Unsolicited commentary is, apparently, one of my character flaws. I see you are headed for great things with this build and I continue to watch and learn right alongside you. 

No apologies necessary Jack.  I agree with you totally that more frames will make a better hull in the long run.  The problem only comes from me learning to "design" them.  Commentary is always appreciated and this time it is just pushing me to learn something new.  As stated by Bob Cleek learning to loft opens up a whole new world of possibilities and that is a good thing.  Thanks for following along and I too hope she ends up being a great build.

Edited May 16, 2023 by goatfarmer11

[goatfarmer11]

3 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

"Thread drift" is an inherent danger is any forum discussion.  It's just as well to head it off at the pass. Back to the subject of hull construction:

 

You are certainly free to build your hull however you wish and, regardless of the construction method you choose, you will have to do some drawing to generate additional transverse body sections, as Wefalck has described so well. That said, I would urge you to carefully study the shape of the classic steam launch hull in which "form follows function." The shape has been developed with speed  and the high-torque low-RPM steam engine's power in mind. (One determining factor being the necessity of the larger diameter higher pitched steam propeller.) Framing and planking the elegant shape of the steam launch's elliptical fan tail counter stern is, in my experience, the most complex and difficult framing and planking job of all stern shapes. Contrasted with the ordinary transom stern where the planks run fairly flat to a relatively vertical sternpost and are "sawed off" at the transom, the fantail launch stern with its long shallow run aft, requires that the planks take a significant twist between the point of maximum beam and the sternpost rabbet, which transitions from relatively vertical at the keel to relatively horizontal at the deck. Therefore, I strongly urge you to seriously consider employing the "lift" or "bread and butter" construction method for such a model hull. The relative difficulties between the alternative construction methods in this instance are at opposite ends of the difficulty spectrum.

 

See: https://www.gartsideboats.com/custom-boatbuilding/22-foot-steam-launch-design-123.html for a sequential photographic demonstration of the construction of a plank on frame steam launch hull. (Plan and photos below from Paul Gartside's website.)

 

 

 

https://www.gartsideboats.com/custom-boatbuilding/22-foot-steam-launch-design-123.html

 

 

 

 

 

 Thank you Bob and I appreciate what you are saying.  I am truly not interested in the bread and butter method at this point for many reasons.  The most important is this is not how I "imagine" building a model boat.  I also feel that a 42 inch long hull as Miranda has would require far more carving to fair than my skills will permit.  I foresee needing gallons of filler and lots of sanding and still not having a fair hull. 

However, after looking at the link you shared in the previous post I am now thinking building something similar to how that launch was built could result in the finished product that I so desire.  Is this the "lift" method you mention?   The look of the closely spaced bent frames is what I see in my head when I think of such a boat from this era.  I think if I milled some 1/8" x 3/8" cherry to be bent for the frames the end product could be spectacular. 

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, goatfarmer11 said:

I am truly not interested in the bread and butter method at this point for many reasons.  The most important is this is not how I "imagine" building a model boat. 

I understand what you are saying, but there's a whole lot of difference between "imagining building a model boat" and actually doing it if you've never done it before. When working to scale, there are some things that just get too small to be possible to depict in the scale model. Study the building process illustrated in the Gartside link I provided above. Gartside's building process in that case is not a traditional construction process. I provided it as an illustration of the framing for a fantail stern. What Gartside did was to epoxy laminate a double planked monocoque skin on top of a "frame" plug to which he'd bent very light frames, certainly more for appearances' sake than for structural value. It's primarily a "cold-molded" hull with light framing which makes for a strong, light hull. Although the planks are glued together, they all must be spiled (essentially lofted in place to create a custom pattern for every plank,) and that done twice because it's double-planked. It's really a beautiful boat.

 

Now let's think about building a model of it just as the prototype was constructed. Gartside's boat is 22 feet long and your prototype is 42 feet long, so "for government work" let's say your prototype is twice the size of Gartside's. Gartside's boat's frames, which are bent over an upside down "plug" of transverse section mold patterns and battens, are 1" X 5/8". While the scantlings aren't directly  proportional, for our purposes let's say that in your prototype at twice the size, the frames are 2" X 1.25". Now, you are going to build a model at a scale of one inch equals one foot, so we do the math and the frames in your 42" model will have to be .167" X .104". The double planking in a model you are contemplating, given that Gartside's were 1/4" for the inner layer and 1/2" for the outer layer would be .021" thick for the inner layer and .042" thick for the outer layer of planking. Those are the same thicknesses of about five and ten sheets of copy paper, respectively. Where can one find strip wood in those sizes? (Hint: Start saving to by a Byrnes saw. https://byrnesmodelmachines.com/tablesaw5.html)

 

So, when you "imagine" how to build this model boat, how thick do you "imagine" a tenth of an inch thick frame is and how do you "imagine" you will be able to fasten planking onto frame stock that is a tenth of an inch by half again as much in size? What wood would you use that had the strength, the fineness and straightness of grain, and the "bendabilty" to be bent to those shapes (and made to stay that way) without crumbling to bits? It never ceases to amaze me what feats of miniaturization members of this forum can achieve, but they're far better men than I, Gunga Din!  

 

I'm not saying this to "beat you up" or make fun of you. Not by a long shot. I'm just trying to illustrate that modeling is often an art of "creating the illusion of reality," as Tom Lauria calls it. It's like a painting that is meant to be appreciated from a "viewing distance" in which the eye is tricked into seeing "reality" when actually, viewed up close, it's all just a lot of brush strokes, or in modern terms "pixels." The art of modeling is in tricking the viewer's eye to see a real vessel viewed from several hundred feet away in, say, quarter inch scale, and that magic is increasingly difficult as the scale decreases in size. In twelve inch scale, more detail can be replicated in miniature, but still there's a point where the mechanics of the thing in miniature can't be expected to serve their purpose and we have to structure it differently if the model is to be built at all, and particularly so if that model is intended to actually sail! An experienced master modeler who wished to depict such light framing in an open boat would most likely build the hull first and apply faux framing afterwards by gluing it to the inside of the completed hull shell, or, similar to what Gartside did in full size, laminate the hull on top of a plug that supported the non-structural faux frames all in one go. I'm sure it can be done, but for most of us, the men in the white coats would be wheeling us away before we got half-way finished gluing all those microscopic wooden slivers into all those fastener holes! 

 

 

7 hours ago, goatfarmer11 said:

I also feel that a 42 inch long hull as Miranda has would require far more carving to fair than my skills will permit.  I foresee needing gallons of filler and lots of sanding and still not having a fair hull. 

Never underestimate your skills until you've tried to develop them! If our skill levels determined the limits of our abilities, we'd never develop any skills at all. The late "Pete" Culler, a famous boat designer who, incidentally, designed some beautiful steam launches, once wrote when encouraging his inexperienced readers not to underestimate their abilities, "Experience begins when you start." There actually isn't a lot of what I'd call "freehand carving" in building a "bread and butter" hull. (It's also called the "lift method," referring to the "lifts" or cut planks stacked up to form the shape of the hull.) The edges of each "lift" define the shape to "carve." It's really only a process of planing off the "pointy edges" until you reach the inner corners and you've got your shape right there. A batten (flat stick) with sandpaper glued onto it like a big nail file, is bent to the curves as you go along and the stiff batten's bent curved shape defines the curve it's sanding right down to where the joints of the lifts indicate is "far enough." I know from my own experience that it is much easier and less work than plank on frame construction. The interior of the bread and butter hull is a bit more tedious to finish because you have to work inside the hull, but you only have to perfectly fair the areas that will show in an open boat. Once that's done, it's a fairly easy task to glue on the faux frames to the inside of the hull where they show. I've attached three somewhat dated and perhaps silly videos of old Brits "carving" a bread and butter hulls. A picture is worth a thousand words and a video is even better.

 

I share these thoughts not to discourage you, but rather to encourage you, because I think you've got a great idea and are "imagining" what could be a great model. I've seen enough to know you can do it. I'm only hoping to offer some suggestions that will promote your success and avoid the frustration than causes so many unfinished models. Get the books. Read and study them. Start another thread asking for suggestions on the best books for aspiring scratch-builders to acquire. (Building a library of related books and publications is usually an essential part of most serious modeler's hobby.) The more you learn about modeling, the more you will "imagine!" 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Roger Pellett]

The Lift method is just another name for the Bread and Butter method.

 

Regardless of how you eventually decide to build the hull you need better drawings.  So, if you are set on using the drawing that you have you need to make a traditional lines drawing with regularly spaced waterlines, body plan sections and probably several buttock lines.  This will ensure that your frames will all line up and a fair (smooth) hull will result.  From this you can Loft additional structural elements like frames.

 

Roger

Edited May 17, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Team ricky]

Hi,

 

I’ve pretty much built my Miranda and followed the plan using 6mm 3mm mahogany, It builds well and with a bit of care a clear varnish finish is possible for the hull…. Have a go with the standard formers and skinny planks and you’ll be fine