Dorade by smileyjon - Amati - RADIO

[smileyjon]

My second attempt at building from a kit . . this time the Amati Dorade and I'm going to try my hand at adapting it to a basic radio control for very very occasional gentle pond sailing, so . .
Here we go then . . 
A few years ago at the ripe old age of 70, I bought Model Shipways Bluenose.  A real challenge . . totally amazing drawings of the original but a lot of scratch building. (pic 1 attached and build on another forum).

 

This kit comes with Amati's own set of drawings, lots of shiny brass, sail cloth, threads, sheets and bundles of wood.

 

So . . internal framing part glued but not fitted, 'scuppers' rough formed, main cabin started and planked hatch under trial . . . 

 

As I've never built anything for R/C I am on a very big learning curve . . so watch this space  . . at least for a laugh !
 

[BobG]

I love these beautiful sailboats and I know nothing about RC so I'll follow along. Good luck, Jon!

[ccoyle]

Since it appears that this a build in progress, I have moved your topic to the correct sub-forum and properly formatted its title for you.

 

Cheers!

[yvesvidal]

Dorade is my favorite yawl and your efforts at trying to RC it are commendable. I will watch your progress with a lot of interest.

 

Yves

[smileyjon]

Well then . . it has begun (more details posted on another forum . . )
I've bought some r/c bits (2 channel transmitter and receiver, 4 turn winch servo and steering servo) and yet to work out what goes where let alone test things !

I'm building the deck basics on a jig that matches the frame profile and 'when' I work out how the 3 sheets are best installed I'll fit all the r/c, lines and other stuff into the framework . . 

then fit the framing into the hull, then add the deck and finish all the other stuff.

This may change as there is so many other considerations (this is gonna be a long build) . . stronger chainplates, different rigging layout, lead sub-keel and dozens of other bits
Laugh !

There are a few minor issues already . . 

Pics of the current mess  . . . temporary jig idea, strange lecci bits, fiddling with planking as the deck length was a couple of mm out (side planking unglued in pic)

[smileyjon]

Well then, just a quickie . . .this kit and conversion to radio control is not as straightforward as I assumed, so things to consider . . 

Try and assemble or 'tweak' internal hull framing before gluing.

The two mast step positions don't quite work when both are in position

The rudder shaft on entering the hull is not in the best of places due to both framing and the cockpit area

Access to any internal equipment is very important

The assembled frames do not sit flush with the longitudinal timbers

I have found the centre stepped strip nearest the bow doesn't quite suit the deck planking

The rigging will need substantial changes . . and perhaps some under deck strengthening at the bow, shrouds etc.

Take care with the 'scupper' holes in relation to deck levels

I have done a very rough tank test . . too much ballast lowers the waterline . . too little reduces stability

Control of all 4 sails will be complex

 

More updates and pics soon !

 

[Ian_Grant]

Always interested to see an RC Sail project. I'm curious about the length/beam of this model - I take it she has a white plastic hull judging from your pic?

Again from the pic, the internal hull looks very sub-divided into small compartments. It's not trivial to convert a kit not intended for RC. You'll need more through-deck access than the small cabin shown. Give some thought to replacing snapped sheet lines  - how do you get them in there? One suggestion I have ... if you buy a waterproof winch servo, you could have the drumhead above the deck and do your sheet routing on deck. Sometimes people disguise the drum as a capstan. Perhaps you could conceal it in the cabin.

 

You mention a lead "sub-keel" by which you mean a fin keel with a bulb on the end, like RC racing yachts? You'll need it to sail in any kind of a wind.

 

There's a very helpful book about RC Scale Sail, "An Introduction to RC Scale Sailing Models" by Philip Vaughn Williams, which covers sailing problems and solutions, making your sails and rigging, sheeting systems, and ballasting.

 

By the way, I see you haven't "followed" this your own build log. If you go to the top of your log and click on "Follow" you will get notifications when someone posts a comment.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[smileyjon]

Gosh, many thanks for all that Ian . . and I've clicked on 'follow' . . more thanks . . 

 

She's . . . Length: 856mm.  Height: 1030mm.  Width 160mm. Scale: 1:20 with the white plastic hull.

 

A lot of internal wood as the hull is quite thin so lots of considerations and so many questions . . . . . . . . . 

For now I'm concentrating on the rudder and associated linkage to the servo . . (pic of kit build attached), and what a lovely angle issue to overcome especially as I need adequate support to the mizzen and I'd rather not run any 'fabricated' link rods through the 'deck well' !
Sorry no idea what 'snapped' sheet lines are, however I'm putting everything into 'trying' to get all the works below deck and improve deck access . . ha ha !

Tried test tank but not satisfactory so a dropped removable keel is planned (2 captive nuts epoxied to the inside of the model's hull).

As for the winch and sheeting lines I have sleepless nights.  I have both a 2 turn and 4 turn servo and a need to control 3 sails (see calc pic . . more laughs).  I've worked out that the sheets need to pass through the deck along the centre line ?) . . but the servo's run for the full number of turns specified when operated and on release of the transmitter joystick immediately turn all the way back so I have no idea how you can control how much line is let out, let alone kept at any intermediate length.  All or nothing it seems.

 

And more thanks for the book suggestion Ian

 

Best regards

Jon

Edited September 1, 2023 by smileyjon

[smileyjon]

Rough idea for rudder

[Ian_Grant]

Jon,

 

At least your rig is all fore-and-aft thus you don't have any yards with square sails to worry about controlling.

 

By "snapped sheet" I just meant when one of your sheet lines to a sail/boom breaks. Which will happen. Rigging these is not just a one-and-done; you need to be able to replace the the sheets.

 

Here are a few ideas to inspire your own...........

 

With the rudder axis tilted, the rudder horn swings in a tilted plane, of course perpendicular to the axis. A servo connected to the horn with links running horizontally will not operate smoothly; the servo links should always run in the same plane as the servo arm. You could place the servo tilted to match the rudder axis, but you probably don't have room in your hull since the servo would lie well above the rudder horn. Instead you can switch to flexible links (since you have them on both sides of the horn) as below.  The "pulleys" could even be just a round rod spanning the space. It/they would need to be above the highest point the ends of the rudder horn reach in a hard turn.

 

Regarding the winches rolling back to their default position, you either have to keep your fingers constantly on the transmitter sticks to hold them in place, or open up your transmitter and remove the associated springs from the gymbals. Opening it may void your warranty. Ask about the springs at the hobby shop where you bought it.

 

Regarding your need for different amounts of sheet movement for different sails, it is an issue with many models. Some approaches are:

 

1) Construct a multi-barrel drum with different diameter barrels > different diameters pull different lengths per turn.

 

2) Use a multi-barrel drum with constant diameter, and employ blocks/pulleys to double or half the pull on a given sheet. This is more or less easily done and is covered by Williams.

 

3) Use more then one winch, each with whatever barrel diameter is required.

 

Your boat is a fair size with quite a bit of sail area. I don't know what pull will be required of the sheets or what your winches can pull. Perhaps you'll need two winches. At any rate here is a simple sketch to ponder. Williams highly recommends having a "primary loop" between the winch and a fixed pulley, which will never tangle, as opposed to running sheets direct from winch to sail(s) which can tangle, ie come off the drum, if you happen to try to move it at a moment when the sheets are not taut. Hard to put in words but I hope you see. Also shown in the sketch is how to have one sheet move half the distance of the other. If you attach the main sheet to the main boom at a point twice as far from the main mast as the other sheet attaches to the fore boom from the fore mast, the two booms will swing in unison. This probably means changing the point of attachment to the main boom from the "scale" position, but judging by the photo of the rigged model in your early post it should be pretty close. Of course, you will need room in the hull for the primary loop, whose length "L" must be greater than the travel of your longest-moving sheet, in your case the main sheet.

In summary, attach the jib sheets to the jib sails (they look to have the same length along their bottoms); attach the fore sheet at the same distance with all three joining into one common sheet line; attach the main sheet at twice the distance; rig as in the sketch.

 

There are also ways to arrange the sheet for a flying jib so it can properly fly to leeward of an overlapping jib no matter which tack - this is covered in Williams and also involves a simple factor-of-two rig.

 

This is a lot to chew on but it is interesting to work things out to have a successful model. Good luck and I look forward to your progress!

 

Lastly, here's a photo of a kit I made in the seventies and repainted and refurbished a few years ago (after the old girl sank at the cottage on her first sail in decades. The piece of wood embedding the rudder post detached from the inside of the hull and she went down by the stern. Fortunately I was able to find and recover her by snorkelling out). Much simpler rig than yours but needs a very powerful winch (still using the one from the seventies which has 20 lb pull but it is about the size of three hockey pucks (!!??).

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[smileyjon]

Ian

 

What a lovely reply and wonderfully useful . .  and it deserves a proper answer, but not tonight as an early start for a medical appointment in the morning (getting old is rubbish sometimes !)

Love your old yacht by the way.  I did consider something like a J class classic but this one is going to be more display model and an occasional gentle 'pond yacht' . . we'll see eh . . . 

 

Thank you again

 

Jon

 

 

[smileyjon]

Hee hee . .  I now understand what a ‘snapped sheet’ means . . thank you, and yes it is a worry and needs consideration.

 

The darned rudder horn has become quite a problem so before implementing anything permenant I’m giving it some thinking time.

I really liked it but cannot do your suggestion with the pulleys as there is but 1mm of room above the already reduced horn.  Horn movement is restricted below, left and right by the hull sides and above by the decking that supports the mizzen mast heel and the cockpit floor and as the mizzen has just a couple of support shrouds and nothing fore and aft it needs to be pretty solid (see section drg) 

 

On to winches . . I’m basically going with you suggestion.

 

I have a double-barrelled drum on the servo (line in and line out perhaps).  The spool diams are 1 inch so . . . . 3.142 inches per turn gives 12.5 inches with the 4 turn servo and 6 and a bit inches with the 2 turn one. (There’s just enough room to get a clear 12.5 inch run to small pulley and spring at the bow end if I use the 4 turn servo).

 

I have to bear in mind where the sheet lines exit to above deck due to the ‘stuff’ on the deck . . and there’s a lot of it, and rather than a reduction block below deck I could fit single blocks in an appropriate position on the jib and mizzen booms ? (note the kit build does not have a boom under the jib sail but I assume I will need one ??? and I’m only planning 1 sail at the front . .  almost a genoa, a bit like yours and no flying jib

I also assume that the sheets rise above deck along the centre line of said deck ?

All this governs how far out the booms are allowed to go, where on the booms the sheets connect and which server is best.

By my rough calc the booms would ‘play out’ to around 30-35 degrees (is this enough ?)

So many questions eh . . . I’ll need to mock everything up prior to anything permanent of course !

 

That’s me done and sorry for asking so many questions, but before I end . . how large is your lovely yacht and do you get to sail her these days ?

 

So .  from across the water, a million thank you’s.

 

Jon 

[Ian_Grant]

Jon,  I see your problem with space for the rudder link. Hmmm,... could you make the well slightly shallower? or move its aft wall forward? Or maybe make it narrower at the aft end to allow for pulleys?

 

It would be advisable to allow for access to the rudder head for maintenance/repairs. I've seen people add small platforms to allow for this. It depends how committed you are to exact scale appearance.

 

Yes the sheets should rise from the centreline.

 

ALERT: I was taking what I guess is a pic of your Bluenose for the Dorade!!!  You must have wondered what I was talking about with flying jibs etc,  HaHa!!

Now I've googled the Dorade and I see the actual rig you discuss above.  Disregard much of what I said earlier. The foot of the jib and the main boom are pretty close to the same length; I would just connect their sheets at the same distance back from the jib-front-corner/boom gooseneck. They could both be driven from the same winch, no issue (assuming the winch has the pull force). You will need some sort of reduction to sheet the whatchmacallit sail at the stern, or a second winch.

 

30-35 degrees is not very much swing, not really enough to broad-reach at 90 degrees to the wind. Ideally you want to achieve close to 90 degrees in order to run with the wind following.

 

Re my yacht: Originally I had a small hatch amidships for access. I had to cut a hole in the aft deck to fix the rudder post mounting, and I decided to replace the entire deck and while I was at it make a "cabin" spanning from the old hatch location all the way back to over the rudder. See pics below. Unfortunately when I tried it out I had water coming in around the cabin....deck had "bulwarks" around the opening and the cabin walls fitted around said bulwark. Water was able to rise over the bulwark. Plus my poor "helmsman" ended up in water up to his ***. I needed to rethink the cabin construction but I then became distracted by first a static display build of HMS Victory, and for the last couple of years a Roman galley which rows under RC control (my build log is here on MSW). One day soon I will fix the yacht, but after the galley I want to make, again for RC, a square-rigger of at least 3 masts of which there are many impressive examples in Williams' book.

 

Old white deck hacked off, and imprived transom.

New melamine deck installed.

The new cabin.

Crash Test helmsman.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[smileyjon]

Ian . . . . sadly no pics but . . . an r/c square rigger, oh my word !  And I'll go look at the galley later . . thank you.

 

Very slow progress . . I just want to get the basics sorted and it's kind of frustrating as I just want to get on and build the thing.  A few rubbish pics

Thank you as always for the ideas and info . . . Yes, I've lifted the cockpit floor a few mm and that's helped and another yes . . I'll recalc to increase the boom swing distances.

 

Looking at my attached Corel Draw sketch . . do you know if ball and cup type connections are available anywhere to get steering links to this horridly angled rudder shaft ? ?

As for future rudder access . . . not really possible so whatever I do has to be good 😄

 

For now I'm beefing up the below deck anchor points for the standing rigging with assorted bits of timber and I don't think the supplied rigging thread will do.

 

That's it for now . . have a good day

 

Jon

Edited September 4, 2023 by smileyjon

[smileyjon]

Rubbish pics of progress . . . . . 

[Ian_Grant]

I guess another option would be to carry the rudder tube through to the well, then make a tiller like in the plan, and have the rudder servo pull the tiller arm via a string from each side, coming through the walls of the well.  ps I assume the rudder shaft passes through a rudder tube in the hull; does the shaft extend above the waterline? Might be a problem if not.

 

I could visualize a u-joint fitting on the rudder shaft with its second connector swivelling on a vertical shaft fixed under the well floor and a horn somehow attached to the vertical half of the u-joint. But in your case I don't think you have room for such a u-joint either.

https://www.greathobbies.com/productinfo/?prod_id=DUM2013

 

There are ball-ish looking connectors for control horns but I've always just used quick-links. I doubt the b"ball" connectors would help in your case.

https://www.greathobbies.com/productinfo/?prod_id=DUB2133

 

ps I added some pics to my earlier post - forgot them originally!!

[smileyjon]

Many thank you's as always . . and all good ideas and well worth trying eh !
So . . I spent a while looking through your galley posts . . . my word you are up for a challenge, quite amazing and very impressive so will be following with interest.  And for a future square sail build . . warship, training or full ship ?  I read Eric Newbie's book and his follow up photo book on the barque Mosulu and fancied having a go at modelling this once (not r/c !) but built the trawler Maggie M and then the Model Shipways Bluenose instead.  I no longer have a workshop (just an old desk area) nor much space for tools and just space for a Dremel and a clamp on vice (love your setup by the way ) . . . and I have slightly wobbly fingers and poor eyes so this build is still a challenge 😁

For now I'm going to order the ball joints and give 'em a try . . and go and spend a few hours on masts and booms . . . 
Again thank you so much for help and encouragement . . and ideas !!

[Ian_Grant]

I loved Newby's book. What a life, I could never do it.

 

Thanks; yes I thought the galley would be an engineering challenge but after completion the novelty would wear off, whereas a square-rigger would be easier to build but constantly challenging to sail. In mainland Europe model square-riggers 2m long are common.

 

Here is  web site which got me thinking about square-riggers. I'd like to build a 4-mast barque (like Moshulu; did you know she is now a restaurant in Philadelphia?) not a warship. Probably a full-rigged 3-master would be more realistic.

 

http://www.cocatrez.net/Water/NevilleWadeShips/index.html

 

It is to dream.....

 

[smileyjon]

Well then . . a trip to Yarmouth to visit a 3 masted barque . . 'SV Tenacious' where we were offered a 5 day sail down to London . . . . leaving this Friday.
Sadly we have several appointments next week so very very reluctantly we now plan to catch up with her in the spring when she returns from the Caribbean.
She was built in Southampton (upside down I believe . . now confirmed !) by volunteers and launched 2000 . . has timber frames and planking but lots of steel and can carry 44 visitor/crew with or without disabilities.

Cannot wait !

Edited September 7, 2023 by smileyjon

[smileyjon]

Ian . . it works and probably the best fix possible . . thank you for the link to these.
Limited to about 45 degrees and that'll have to do . . . but this is just a gentle pond yacht !

I've cut out the bottom of a frame and the cockpit floor may be a few mm higher but hey . . 

[Ian_Grant]

Great!  I'll keep them in mind from now on, never used them before.

[smileyjon]

Bending small tubing

Not sure where to post this but could anyone offer advice on bending 3 to perhaps 6mm tubing in brass, plastic or copper . . or other ideas

I will have 3 sail sheets that will go through the deck of a yacht.  These will need to turn through bends (at least 1 will need to go through 2 bends) which in turn to be joined to a 'traveller' line from a 4 turn winch servo.

This is a one-off build so I'm trying to avoid buying equipment I will not need again.

Any thoughts would be very welcome
Many thanks
Jon

[smileyjon]

Finally . . we can begin to build !
All rough cut and taped together
I've built a larger bottom floor . . slightly wider in case and extended this through the frame towards the stern to take the steering servo.

Thank you Ian for the 'heads-up' on the swivel ball links, bought in the UK . . and they are perfect for overcoming the steep rudder angle.  I'll order 2 more to connect the rods to the server arm.

 

Moving the steering server back (and just under the cockpit floor) has allowed me to move the 4-turn sheet winch a couple more inches towards the stern, which in turn gives me plenty of length (up to 15 inches) to run out and back traveller wires (1 inch spool diameter x pi x 4 turns gives 12.5 inches !)

 

Now I need to source suitable traveller cables, a small pulley for the bow end of the traveller . . probably sprung; guide tubing for the under deck sheet runs . . then space for the receiver . .  and switch and little 6v battery pack which will need to be accessed . . and on and on and on . . . . 

[Ian_Grant]

6 hours ago, smileyjon said:

Bending small tubing

Not sure where to post this but could anyone offer advice on bending 3 to perhaps 6mm tubing in brass, plastic or copper . . or other ideas

I will have 3 sail sheets that will go through the deck of a yacht.  These will need to turn through bends (at least 1 will need to go through 2 bends) which in turn to be joined to a 'traveller' line from a 4 turn winch servo.

This is a one-off build so I'm trying to avoid buying equipment I will not need again.

Any thoughts would be very welcome
Many thanks
Jon

Just yesterday in another log someone replied to the same question. His solution is to pass a styrene rod (like Evergreen) through the tube, form the bend during which the styrene prevents kinking, then heat the tube with a propane torch to melt the styrene out. Apparently he does this fairly often.

 

I would do the heating outside in the fresh air though.

[smileyjon]

I do like this idea . . model shop on Monday then !

Thank you

[Ian_Grant]

Good luck; I'm interested to see how this works...............

[smileyjon]

Slow progress . . much of it just thinking time . . 
Be careful if you build this kit as I'm finding tiny position issues with the hull framing, and should you wish to add a rudder servo . . .
Latest pic of rough assembly:
The cockpit floor from the kit will be cut down alongside the rear planking as the 'nib' at the end has a hole for a static rudder, and because of the steep rudder angle the linkage bar at the tip needs room to tilt as it turns.  Also the hole for the mizzen foot needed moving about 2mm forward.

The cockpit floor will need to be removable at some point . . and sit slightly higher to give the linkages room to twist.
The 2 rectangular holes in the now extended bottom floor are for the 2 servos and the linkage will need cup and ball connections !

The standing rigging points will all need 'beefing up'.

The kit says connect the deck (fully planked) to the frames and glue the whole assembly into the moulded hull . . . this now cannot be done as the rudder assembly will need to go through the stern of the hull and be connected to the servo which is in the framing . . so some tricky stages to come.

Now I need to find suitable rudder hinges as most for sale are of the 'u' shaped forked kind and would look wrong if fixed to the outside of the hull.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by smileyjon

[Ian_Grant]

It may be best to not try to hinge the rudder - instead, have the rudder shaft pass through a brass tube epoxied into the hull and have a way to support the bottom of the rudder: eg a small plate attached to the keel, extending back under the rudder with a hole for the bottom end of the rudder shaft; or make it with a pin which extends up into a hollow rudder shaft.  Just two ideas to inspire thought.......

[smileyjon]

Rudder servo links under the cockpit floor have been installed and tested . . these 4 bought for £5 from a model store 1/2 a mile from my home.  All I now have to do when I insert the frame assembly into the hull is drop the server ends onto the 2mm bolts from the server arm, add the nuts and a dollop of superglue as future access will be denied . . hey ho !
Back to the rudder installation then . . . I have a 3mm solid brass rod from the  'tiller' that runs down the stern to keel level (not illustrated is this rod protruding up through the the tiller held down by a frame mounted 'cap'). and the plastic sleeve perhaps should be metal.
So a couple of ideas (one based on above suggestion . . thank you as always)

Edited September 14, 2023 by smileyjon

[smileyjon]

Steering mechanism and rc components positioned . . finally . . but I've still a way to go before I can begin gluing it all together and begin to create a model pond yacht.
The photo shows a power lead leading aft from the on-off switch that won't be used (it's to connect to a battery charger).  I'll put the battery pack in an open topped 'box' roughly where it is.  The 2 servos will connect to the receiver on the port side.  2 lines will run out from the double drum winch and the 3 sheets will connect to this line.

So . . has anyone ever run sheets though tubing ?  getting the 2 aft sheets to the port winch line is not straightforward and they will need to go through at least 2 bends . . equally the front sheet will have to be fed back and connected (IF I HAVE THIS RIGHT ?) to the starboard winch line.
I could use a wire type of thread though the tubing and connected to the winch lines . . and for show, blocks and regular rigging thread up to the booms . . . .

Edited September 16, 2023 by smileyjon