Iron Braces on Hanging Knee Deck Supports... HMS Victory

[tmj]

I have two reference books showing these iron braces attached to hanging knees. Those iron braces are shown with dotted lines, which to me means that they are 'hidden' lines, lines showing something that is not on the front side of the view being shown, but rather on the back, 'hidden' side of that view... like a mechanical engineering drawing. I've also looked at photos, online, but those photos never show both sides of the knee brace. I'm confused. Common sense tells me that those iron braces need to be on 'BOTH' sides of the hanging knees, but my drawings show that to not be the case, via those hidden/dotted lines. The image below shows the current progress on my Victory section. I need to know if displaying iron braces on the visible sides of the hanging knees, supporting my Orlop deck, would be proper, or improper.  

[allanyed]

TMJ

Which reference books are you referring to?  It depends on what period your model is depicting.   Iron knees were not used until late in the 18th century so would not have been on Victory when she was launched.  If it is from well after she was launched and after her various rebuilds, there would likely have been Roberts iron plate knees used in combination with or possibly in place of timber or possibly later iron plate knees without the side arm.   Have you studied any contemporary cross section drawings at RMG Collections or the high res drawings on the WikiCommons site?  They show the braces in two views not just the cross section so you can see how they are set up.  The drawings of Boyne 1810 and Union 1811 on the Wiki site show the iron knees very clearly as they can be seen in high resolution.  

For this high res version go to the Wiki website  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich and scroll to Boyne 1810 on page 1, row 9, third drawing from the left.   For a low res version of the same drawing enter ZAZ0237 in the search box the RMG Collections site.  https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections

Allan

[Morgan]

Iron knees and straps only went into the Victory in the 1814 / 16 refit, up until this time she was fitted with an extensive suite of timber Riders across all decks. In the aforementioned refit all Riders above the Orlop deck were removed and replaced with iron knees and straps.

 

RMG Drawing ZAZ0122 shows these for the 1788 refit of Victory. A memo from Lt. Layman  to Nelson confirms the retention of these fittings and enumerates them, they broadly tie-up with the drawing indicating continuity and retention of the Riders configuration.

 

Gary

[tmj]

9 hours ago, allanyed said:

Which reference books are you referring to? 

Hello Allan,

My main go to has been "The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships" by Longridge. There is another 'old' book in my collection, that I recall, but can't seem to locate at the moment. I'll have to go digging for that one before naming names. I also just received John Mckay's book "The 100-Gun Ship Victory". It arrived today, so I have not had time to look at it. It's quite possible that the information that I seek truly lies within the books I have been looking at and I've just not delved deep enough into those books to find what I seek. Perhaps the info is in McKay's book. Time for thorough research is something that I simply do not have right now. It's all I can do to get a few hours of work done on my model every week. Research will have to wait about four years, until I retire, then I will have all the time in the world for both research and building. 

[allanyed]

Hi TMJ,

I love the books you mention, but do not diminish the advantages of using contemporary information to confirm or correct modern sources.  The AOS series is nice to use as a reference at times but is not without mistakes.  The two sites in post #2 should alleviate an excess use of time   If you don't mind the low res version-   https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-80028  will take you right to the cross section drawing of Boyne.   I think the high res is better to see how this was all done if you use the Wiki site mentioned above but then again I have old eyes so prefer the higher res plans.😀

Allan  

[Morgan]

Tom,

 

The fundamental choice in this debate is to what time period are you modelling your cross section.  Longridge and McKay both show the ship in her post 1920’s restoration, this is not the same as her Trafalgar appearance, nor her 18th Century guise, or her 1816 - 1922 configuration.  
 

For post 1928 go with Longridge & McKay.

For 1816 - 1922 go with the Boyne, as Allan sets out.

For 1788 through to 1814, including Trafalgar, forget iron knees and go with Riders.

 

Gary

[uss frolick]

Where is the modern, definitive, written study of the 1805 HMS Victory configuration?

[Morgan]

7 hours ago, uss frolick said:

Where is the modern, definitive, written study of the 1805 HMS Victory configuration?

You mean something like the attached (sample only)?

 

c.400 pages, several hundred images, tables, etc.  9 years to research taking in the NMRN, TNA, RMG / NMM, British Library, etc. Call it Pt.1 of my Victory build log - Pt. 2 will be the actual build.

 

I guess finished by Xmas, presently on with a late change, just looking at Victory’s bow shape which seems to have changed after 1788, trying to discern whether it was in 1803 and the pre-Trafalgar refit or whether it was the 1814 / 16 refit and I’m seeing remnants of the Round Bow, awaiting further hi-res plans from NMM.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

Nelsons Victory Revealed Proof Sample.pdf

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

1 hour ago, Morgan said:

the attached

 

Impressive scholarship.

[uss frolick]

Will this be in purchasable book form?

[Morgan]

5 minutes ago, uss frolick said:

Will this be in purchasable book form?

I wasn’t thinking of going down that route, it would be nice to recoup some costs 😏 but that isn’t where or why I started. So it will be made available here first and free.
 

There are copyright considerations as I rely on some third party images, it’s a work of personal research and not for commercial purposes, but if it’s copied around, cited, or relied upon then usual attribution caveats will apply.

 

I will need to give thought to how to release, whether in parts, as part of a build log (from a copyright perspective this seems right), or all in one go, but not quite there yet.  It will be in PDF format.

 

Gary

[allanyed]

Hi Morgan  

Could you post this as a new subject in the Ship's Plans and Project research forum as I believe a lot of member would like to follow this and may not see it here in TMJs "iron braces" topic.

Thanks

Allan

[Morgan]

Hi Allan,

 

I will do, I might just tease a few findings and features as well.

 

Gary

[tmj]

18 hours ago, Morgan said:

The fundamental choice in this debate is to what time period are you modelling your cross section.

 Gary, I have no idea as to the time period. I started this model only wanting to build a descent looking specimen, worthy of display, within my limitations of skill. No historic significance was ever considered. That has obviously changed, but there have already been many 'creative' mistakes made along the way, as per historic accuracy of 'any' period in time. I cannot reverse those mistakes, however. I'd like to abstain from making any future mistakes as I proceed with this build. 

In viewing the above photo, mistakes and all... you tell me what time period my model, in its current state, would 'most closely' represent. I'll then locate, purchase, etc. the proper reference materials for that specific time period and proceed accordingly. I'm thinking that 'this' may be the best way to get me moving on a proper, less confusing trek! 

 regards,

   Tom...   

[Morgan]

Hi Tom,

 

You are fortunate in that the area around the Main Mast did not change significantly in the three phases I mentioned, there are no distinguishing features that would differentiate it from one time to another, so in many respects it is readily adaptable.  This is excepting for the upper decks Riders, you have made a nice job of the lower riders, so having got these in place already this sets a date of no earlier than 1788.

 

 If you include Upper Deck Riders you can go for an authentic Trafalgar timescale, but in reality it could be anywhere from 1788 - 1814, so covering the French Revolutionary, and Napoleonic Wars.

 

If you don’t add Upper Deck Riders then the model, with the addition of Iron Knees, which is where you started this thread, can be anywhere from 1816 up to the present day. 
 

All these periods of Victory’s long life are equally valid, although many of us, me included in particular get fixated with the Trafalgar period.
 

Gary

[tmj]

Many thanks, Gary. This helps me immensely! " 1788-1814 Trafalgar it is!" I'll do my best to properly represent this era as best I can. "Thanks again!"

  Tom...

[Morgan]

Hi Tom,

 

The attached may help, it is the Victory’s Riders from 1788 around the Main Mast, each colour just denotes different levels.   You can also see the knees which are not coloured.  You can obtain the dimensions from Steel, if you don’t have a copy you can buy the tables from the NRG or I can dig them out for you.

 

Gary

[allanyed]

Hi Gary

The best I can ascertain from the Steel scantlings is the first picture below and since  I cannot find the dimensions of the upper most riders I am pretty sure I got this wrong.  Can you correct this for me?  I am wondering if the lower paired riders are both considered floor riders in which perhaps the second drawing would be correct.  Or, is it possible the first drawing is correctly labeled and Steel does not include what might have been called top timber riders.

Thank you very much.😀

Allan

 

 

[Morgan]

Hi Allan,

 

Steel’s plate 8 - X-Section of a 74 gun ship put things nicely into context, the following table aligns with the colour code, obviously this is for the whole ship.  Your dimensions from Steel can be used to extend this.

 

ZAZ0122
Colour	Type	No of Riders
Red	Top Rider	24
Red & Blue	Long Middle Rider	2
Blue	Middle Rider	20
Blue & Orange	Long Breadth Rider	2
Orange	Breadth Rider	22
Green	First & Third Futtock Rider	32
Purple	Second Futtock Rider	16
Rectangular yellow box below Green Riders[1]	Floor Rider	8
	Totals	126

 

Gary

 

[uss frolick]

And the colors reminded the crew which deck they were on ...  🤪

[allanyed]

14 hours ago, Morgan said:

the following table aligns with the colour code

Perfect, MANY thanks Gary

Allan