Maine three-masted schooner by Bedford - 1:54 - RADIO

[HIPEXEC]

I wouldn't paint over all that beautiful woodwork. It's a work of art and should be seen by all to admire.

[Sailor1234567890]

A good FG job does make the grain pop. Just make sure to get it covered with varnish asap. Otherwise, you end up with a milky white look to it. Not so nice. Beautiful hull by the way.

[Bedford]

Yeah I must admit, I came home today, drove into the garage and there she was on the bench and I thought WOW that looks good! The epoxy has given it a warmer tone and it is beautiful. My son saw it today and said the same as Hipexec but he then saw the pencil marks preserved for all time under the epoxy, there is filler there too that you can't really see in the pics as well as traces of glue. I had always intended to paint it so I didn't worry about keeping it "clean" so it has to be painted. I never paint my static ships because I love the timberwork but this is different.

 

She has reached a milestone..........

Today she went down the slipway.

 

This is empty, you may be able to see a small black mark on the stern post, this is the sailing water line, she has a lot of ballast to take on yet.

 

 

After carefully putting rocks into her I finally got her to that line, one rock missed the boat, as it were!

 

 

 

 

 

Not a drop of water got in, not even through the shaft seals, I did add a smeare of vaseline (petroleum jelly) to them.

 

 

It was a very strange feeling, putting on of my tallships into the bath tub. It felt wrong to be honest. But I am so happy with it.

 

The placement of the rocks to get her to float level along her length confirmed what I thought, the centre of gravity is forward of centre so this will be considered when attaching the fin keel. I did put a mast in at one point and try and pull her over but she resisted quite well, makes me wonder if my original idea of just extending the keel along her length by adding mild steel plate would work, I may have to find a way to test this concept.

 

On another note I have been wondering how much weight she would be able to carry and have been guessing about 6kg all up, I weighed all the rocks when I pulled them out of the hull and she will weigh 5.7Kg all up and could easily run to 6Kg if I had to. I am now confident that I will be able to put plenty of ballast below the hull to keep her upright because at present I have 4.25 Kg to play with.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Bedford

[augie]

Dynamic testing.  We don't see that every day on MSW.  Great job and thanks for the photos.

[captainbob]

Congratulations on a first water test.  If you put threaded nuts, stainless, in the bottom of the keel you will be able to mount any type of ballast.

 

Bob

[Jim Lad]

Nice to see that she passed the 'tank testing' stage.  Onward and upward!

 

John

[fnkershner]

Wow! Congrats. Its time for the bubbly and celebration! :pirate41: :pirate41:

I just wish the water had a bit of color. In the pics it is so clear it is hard to see the water line on the boat.

 

PS If I had your weather I think I would be in the tub right along with her.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[Bedford]

I've got to tell you Floyd, it was nearly me that got float tested instead of the schooner. By the time I was done it was cooling down so I started bucketing it out to the poor plants in the garden, they needed it more than I did.

 

Now onto the control systems planning and fitting out. There is going to be a LOT of thinking done for a while to make damn sure I allow fittings for everything I have to. If I leave something out it might never fit in later.

[Bedford]

I keep talking about the ballast and that is the way I work, talk it out, think it through, keep considering new input as I progress and learn.

 

When I tried to pull her over with the mast she really did resist quite a bit, however in doing so she slipped sideways in the direction of the pull. My thinking is thus :- because she has such a broad, almost flat bottomed hull through midships the longitudinal C.O.G. shifts to leeward as she is pushed over and the windward side of the hull is forced upward. The effect of these two actions is that as the C.O.G. shifts further leeward the leverage of the ballast on the windward side increases because it is further and further from the fulcrum. The force applied by all that ballast is considerable.

 

This and the fact that she slipped sideways quite easily is making me think I should revert to my original plan which was to get some mild steel plate cut to size to run the length of the keel and simply deepen the existing keel. I have the specific gravity of mild steel in my build notes so I can easily work out exact dimensions to make it. The beauty of this type of keel is that it is easy to make, the angular force on the ships keel will be less because it is directly under the keel instead of 300mm or so below, leverage multiplies force. and it can be launched and retrieved much closer to shore as well as being much less likely to become entangled in weeds than a fin keel. It will also improve lateral stability, ie:- she will be harder for the wind to push sideways.

 

So I may end up putting any heavy items against the outer hull and adding ballast along the outer hull as well as placing the steel plate keel below. I am trying to think of a safe way to test this theory so I will see how I go.

 

I have seen video clips of these wide hulled cargo ships with a keel like I mention sailing quite well so I think you only need a deep fin keel for the slender hulled ships where the C.O.G. and internal ballast has far less effect.

[augie]

Based on my own experience with 1:1 sailboats, I agree with your thoughts.  The full keel should allow for shallower draft and improved lateral stability. 

 

Don't forget to leave room for the batteries!

[popeye the sailor]

coming along great!

[fnkershner]

I also agree. Since you have such a nice rounded Hull and no chine. You will need the full keel or a fin keel. I think the full keel will look better and allow for shallower draft. How many channels are you planning? I would guess:

 

1. For rudder.

2. Motor speed control

3. Sails

4. ? more sail control or are you going to have each prop independent?

 

For our R/C sailing club we have a tug to go get wayward R/C sailboats since they have no electric motor. Knock on wood (or epoxy) I have never needed this assist.

 

PS Like you I do my best work thinking aloud. Drives the wife nuts. But oh well.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[Bedford]

Not sure how many chanels yet, there are a few ideas up my sleeves that need proving. I made the masts in advance to do this but just seem to be going ahead with the whole thing so I guess I need to get into proving my ideas before I go much further.

 

Definatly rudder

Motor control, just thinking forward and reverse, don't need speed control.

Two lots of sail servos, tops will be controlled by mains and staysails will be seperate to mains although probably could be in conjunction, mmmmmmmmmmm more to think about.

There are a few other things I would like to do but testing must be done first.

[fnkershner]

I had assumed that the motors were just to ensure you don't loose her and that you intended to actually sail her as much as possible. Is this not true? I have seen R/C sailboats with 1 channel for sail control and I have also seen Square rigged with up to 7 channels. I would suggest that you will need separate controls for the square rigged and fore & aft sails.

[Bedford]

She's a schooner Floyd, no square rigged sails.

 

Yes the motor or motors will just be a back up to make sure I can make her go where I want her to mainly because I have no sailing experience.

[fnkershner]

Oops, how could I forget. Since she is rigged fore and aft only then sailing here will be easy. May I suggest that all you need is 1 sailing servo. It will make it much easier to control. Also make sure all sails are club footed (have a boom), and then you are all set. Let me dig up a diagram of how we rig our boats to share with you. You will need a very high torque server. But you can run all the sheets to this servo and she will tack easily. I bet you will be flying wing on wing in a very short time. Do you have any parks with boat ponds near by?

 

Our club uses a city park that has a pond that is 1 meter deep and 35 meters in diameter. It is perfect for beginning sailing. we often have races on this pond. 

[Bedford]

Oh to have such a pond. I would have no dramas if that where the case.

 

I could run all the sails from the one winch servo, such as this. http://radiosailingshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=16&zenid=5215e44b516b53f9e9977c2097bb744f

 

Graupner also have a good sail winch servo but it appears to be no longer available.

 

I can turn drums to the sizes I need so as long as I work out all the pulls exactly I should be able to make one servo control them all. I may take an idea from a model of the Banterer I have seen on here whereby the servo is mounted in one end of the hull with the axis on the horizontal so it can drive a winching assembly that runs the length of the ship. Being a square rigger that system is far more complicated than it sounds but my schooner should be quite straight forward.

 

I got a few goodies in the mail today, pics later.

[fnkershner]

I am familiar with most of those products. I have the Hitec 765 for my sheet servo. I use an extended arm with a double throw system and a continuous sheet from the Jib to the Main. Mine is a sloop rig but I have lots of torque. I find the arm to be a more positive control than the drum. Also if you have access to a servo programmer you can extend the reach of the arm from 90 degrees to 120. I get more positive control faster than I get from the drum. I also have enough throw to go from shroud to shroud. And you can buy both the Hitec and the programmer for less than those other servos. Since your model is going to be very close to 1 meter long I don't think you will need those drums. I also get a range of approx. 1/2 KM on a digital 2.6 rig.

 

PS I also have a lake near me that has a max depth of 2.5 Meters and is 380 acres. It is not hard to recover your boat just by swimming or small row boat. I often see R/C power boats there.

[Bedford]

Good info Floyd, thanks.

 

I will have to work out how much throw I need and see if the horn type servo will do the job, it would make it a lot simpler. I could just attach sheets at the correct point along the length of the horn to get the correct ratio of throw. I wasn't sure those servos would be powerful enough.

 

I will appreciate all info you can give me in this part of the build Floyd, thanks!

 

So much to think about !!!

Edited December 24, 2013 by Bedford

[Bedford]

I got my replacement prop shaft today along with the correct type of anchors, I like the anchors they look good and weathered. Take a good long look at the carpentry skill in the planking because this is the last time you will see it.

 

 

The colour scheme

 

 

Now I just need to find somewhere open to get said paint. All the trade places closed at midday because it is xmas eve, Hope they re-open before the new year.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Bedford

[popeye the sailor]

that scheme is going to look very nice!   Happy Holidays!

[fnkershner]

Well it is a holiday, so even you can take a break. Besides there is always something to work on even if you can't paint.

 

I find that one of the thing I enjoy the most about this hobby is the mental challenges. I often spend my free hours away from home trying to solve a problem. it is like a puzzle. I will even wake up with a new approach to something. And then the opportunity to talk it out with others just adds to the fun.

 

I know you have plenty of time before you will be rigging your sheets. I will take some pictures and find a detailed description of my workings. By the way what is your sail plan? I have found that here is where authenticity and function diverge. Let me explain.

 

When we build static models most of us strive for it to be as close a representation of the original as our skills and wallet allow. It is just a miniature of the original. But in R/C we are more interested in function, that is does she sail well. For an R/C craft it is hard to accomplish both. A good example is the modifications you will be making for the keel & ballast. Function does not always scale well. Another example you may already have thought of is the number of Jibs. On a schooner it is customary to have 3 or 4 jibs. On an R/C it is very difficult to Tack that many sails and it will have an effect on the performance of the ship. Also most period schooners had gaff rigged Foresails & Mainsails, and they also had a topsail on each mast. I am guessing here but I think you will find that the R/C topsail will give you fits and you will get better performance out of a full sail instead of a Gaff rig. It certainly will be easier to control.

[fnkershner]

Ok, I guess I am going to have eat some of my word above. Here is Washington (Not WA Australia) we have a R/C boat manufacturer. I have one of his boats. I have learned most of what I know from him. He sells a kit that is a Schooner. It is 47 inches long. And it has Gaff rigged sails and 2 jibs. I still haven't learned how to include a link in a post. But if you search for T47 R/C schooner I bet you will find it. There are some very good pictures on the site which should help. Let me know if you don't find it. There is even a good picture of the deck which shows the rigging of the sheets. And he uses just one servo for 4 sails.

[captainbob]

I used the Hitec HS-785HB drum servo on my One Meter to handle 600 square inches of sail without any trouble.  

 

As Floyd said on RC boats most sails have booms, that is because they are easier to control that way.  If you look closely on the T47 RC schooner, even the fore jib has a boom.

 

Bob

[Jim Lad]

That's a great green you've chosen for the hull.  I'm sure your local Bunnings will be open and happy to take your money tomorrow!

 

John

[Bedford]

Floyd, thanks for the input. To add a link just highlight the web address at the top of your screen then copy and paste it into your reply.

If you go back to my first post you will see the rig I am aiming for. The sails will have a boom and a gaf and the top sails will attach to the gaf so it should act as one sail. The stay sails will not be club footed but I have seen how they work and I think it should be fairly easy to replicate. I've seen a ship on here that does it and it works well. Remember that if I ever have a problem coming about because of sails I can just hit the motors for a few seconds. My aim is to have her work reasonably close to the real thing, speed is not the issue.

Having said that I am keenly reading and thinking about what you are saying, you know more about this than I do. I will watch the vid and see what I learn. I can always change the rig once it is made if it doesn't work well enough.

 

John, Yes Brunswick Green, an old standard. I had it in my head from the word go and I think it will be perfect, yes it is readily available from bunnings but the red is not, it has to be mixed and while I know Bunnings can do that I don't trust their random staff to know what primer I need to make it take properly to the epoxy finish. I know I can rely on the guys at my local trade paint store.

 

AVS, she was always going to be painted, I can't stain her now anyway, nothing can soak into that timber now. She is sealed well and truly.

 

Bob, as with Floyd, keep it coming. I take it all on board and work with it. I need to find my sail area, I think I worked it out before.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Bedford

[Bedford]

So this is the schooner Floyd referred to  http://www.modelsailboat.com/rc-sch1.html

 

She is similar in length, masts are of similar height so sail area is going to be similar although mine will be spread over 3 masts and 3 stay sails.

This is 2.72Kg mine will be 5.7Kg

 

This is a very interesting comparison. Obviously mine will be slower because it has to displace more water as it moves but that's fine, it really makes me wonder about that sailing keel though. I reckon I could almost get away with no additional keel at all and just have all the ballast lining the sides of the hull. I won't though. I know I need a bit of keel below for lateral stability or she will just blow sideways across the lake, maybe a lighter folded steel winged keel.......

 

Damn you Floyd, giving me so much to think about   Seriously though this is getting very interesting, I am now confident that one servo will easily handle the sails so it is getting simpler.

[captainbob]

Ah the joys of RC sailing.

 

Bob

[fnkershner]

I am so glad I can give you more to think about.  Merry Christmas!

 

And since it is Christmas. Let me fulfill another promise -

 

I said I would give you some pictures of my rig. So here you go. I hope this gives you a whole week of thinking! LOL

 

The first picture is a macro shot of my Fairlead. There are several R/C sailing sources on the web for these. It has a threaded shaft which I cut down for the thickness of my deck.

 

The next shot is the sheet termination. Let me explain. The sheet is one continuous run from the jib to the servo arm and back to the mainsail. So the doubled line goes thru the fairlead to the servo arm and then to this termination. Obviously you don't need a brass snap. I just found it useful to make sure it did not come back up thru the fairlead. You will see that the line is doubled over and crimped. The string we use is call Spectra. it is as strong as Kevlar and very slippery. So it doesn't hold a knot very well, that is why I use a crimp.

 

The next shot is of the servo arm. It doesn't show in the picture. But there is a Brass Grommet wired to the end of the servo arm. This allows the sheet to slide thru and give you a double throw for the same distance of the arm. We use this in racing to get the max distance of sail from shroud to shroud. You may not need this.

 

And the last shot is meant to show everything from the fairlead to the arm and then to the termination. For the termination I used a small scrap of wood that I rounded off and Epoxied an eye bolt into it. It is then Epoxied to the underside of the deck.

 

I hope this helps. and again Merry Christmas. I know in your time zone I am a bit late. but enjoy Boxing day anyway.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Floyd Kershner

[Shazmira]

Steve, lots of progress since I was last able to get on and check things out. The float test was awesome! It also highlighted her size in scale to the bathtub, wow again she is quite large. As to the rest of all the techno talk I have nothing to offer since it is all above my head, but I do look forward to seeing more! Hope your Christmas was merry and all is well.