HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[scrubbyj427]

Nicely done Alan, I really like the coin idea. I’m going to have to include that in my build now.

 

JJ

[Wintergreen]

Alan, I am sorry!

I do not question the fixed blocks or anything. Just tried to be funny about the temporary strings you held the masts with. Apologies if it came out wrong. Not my intention at all.

I like your build, primarly for the scale you are building in, 1:64. I don't have place for big ships in 1:48 and hence follow your build to see how it can be done in that smaller scale.

 

Kind regards

Håkan

[AON]

Now that is quite funny!

I'm sorry you had to explain it.

 

[Wintergreen]

12 hours ago, AON said:

I'm sorry you had to explain it.

That's okay. As long as you don't classify me as a complete idiot I'm fine.

Let's blame it on my English skills. Nuances are hard to express in writing even in you primary language.

Oh, and please don't cross-reference the idiot-thing with my Admiral. She thinks I am a total dork sometimes...

 

Back to building 😉 

[AON]

No sir. Your message was quite clear to everyone but me. You even had the correct emoji!

There is only one whale appendage here... oh wait... you meant silly person.  🤣

That good sir would be me!

 

 

Regarding the 22 orlop beams and the original contract.

They are the only beams that do not mention a rounded or rise dimension per the contract page 7.

[**correction: page 1 states it is rounded 2-1/2" which is a mere 1/32" at 1:64 scale]

I suppose due to being below the waterline there is nowhere to run off to but down to the bilge.

These beams range in size from 15-1/4" to 12" square. (0.238" to 0.188"  or 6 mm to 4.8 mm)

I've cut up stock at 0.235" square and will use that throughout the orlop deck to simplify something that will barely be seen.

Edited January 29 by AON

[AON]

On 1/28/2024 at 6:06 AM, AON said:

Regarding the 22 orlop beams and the original contract.

They are the only beams that do not mention a rounded or rise dimension per the contract page 7.

[**correction: page 1 states it is rounded 2-1/2" which is a mere 1/32" at 1:64 scale]

I corrected  my post #1625.

 

Started on the orlop deck yesterday

As the rise or rounding is quite minimal and this deck is below  two others, I will treat it as flat, to make it easier for me.

I am happy I decided to do this deck as being a novice I am finding it quite the challenge.

Two beams fitted near the bow and the first tries of each are in the scrap bin. (Actually they are put aside to resize for the ledges and such)

I hope to get better at this soon.

I'll post photos when there is something I'm proud of.

Edited January 29 by AON

[TBlack]

2 hours ago, AON said:

as being a novice I am finding it quite the challenge.

 

You’re not a novice from my perspective!

[AON]

Thank you TBlack for that vote of confidence.

 

Here is a photo of the beginning of the orlop beam fitting. It may be slow going for awhile - until I gain some confidence in myself.

I hope what I learn here will help with the gundeck beams.

The orlop beam layout is described as similar to the gundeck beams above it but smaller in size.

Edited January 30 by AON

[AON]

First the good news.

 

I'm slowly learning how to easily make and notch the beams.

Fitting is slow work. I use a crude sliding stick to measure the distance then cut the stock slightly over size and trim it to fit.

I could measure off my framing plans... make a mental note to compare the measurements of the next beam I make... nope, better write that down.

The bow has quite the curvature to it in both axis so that takes some concentration to shape the ends of the beam to rest or nest in place properly.

I mark the depth of the crutch cut on two faces and was originally sawing multiple notches prior to chiselling out to the mark but I find just notching the extreme ends is enough. I saw just inside the pencil line. The sawing keeps the ends from chipping. Then I fit the crutch stock into the notch and open it a bit as required.

So I've progressed to my first two beams having the crutches installed and all glued in place.

The third beam, the one with the arms, is notched and ready to install and the fourth beam is marked and ready to notch.

I mark the crutch notch locations off the plan I made for the gun deck. The contract stated the orlop deck beams are laid out like the gun deck above it. This is important to understand as I am about to mention the bad news. First I use my plumb to locate the centre of the beam. I have a string stretched from stem to stern on centre. My plumb is suspended from my height gauge beam and I inch it over, string beside string. The nib or point of the plumb is now just off one side of centre on the beam so I pencil mark the actual centre of the beam to one side of the plumb pointer. Then I place the beam, located with the centre mark, over my 1:64 scale paper plan for the gun deck and mark the notch locations. Easy enough.

When I stopped late yesterday I left myself a note to work on the standard knees for the first few beams. Standard knees run vertically upwards above the beam. I have to check if they start actually on top of the beam or along side of the beam... make a mental note... nope, I'd best write that down too.

This morning I awoke with a premonition I'd done something wrong.

Double check and the plans show quite clearly that the orlop deck beams have none with arms like the gun deck above has.

So the bad news is I made a beam with arms that is now scrap. The good news is I didn't glue it in place and I now know I can do it. Yeah me!

 

 

 

Edited February 1 by AON

[kgstakes]

It’s looking great just take your time and it doesn’t matter how long it takes if the end results keeps looking like the picture shows, nice crisp notches everything fits good just don’t get frustrated that it’s taking forever.  You’re doing a great job.😀😀

[Thukydides]

Looks great Allan

[druxey]

We feel your pain. But those beam arms were good practice for what will come above on the gun decks!

[AON]

Contract reads that there are lodging knees and standard knees at each end fayed into the timbers except for the three foremost and four aft most beams and to sides of those beams for the 2nd futtock riders which are to have one lodging knee.

 

Standard knees have their athwartships arm on the deck.

 

So, memory being what it is, it is a good thing I double checked as I thought the first few had standard knees as opposed to hanging knees.

 

No mention of any hanging knees for the orlop deck.

 

[Wintergreen]

Looks good from here 🙂

When I laid the deck on my current build I installed all the beams first, then notched for carlings and stuff. My mind found it easier that way to get straight lines for carlings and deck openings.

But as they say, whatever works for you, my mate!

 

Keep it up!

[AON]

If they were installed (glued in place) you notched them in situ?

How did you manage that?

[druxey]

I don't know Håkan's method, but I use miniature chisels. First, two diagonal stabbing cuts to define the two sides of the score, then shallow cuts to cut the score to depth. Once you've confidence practising on scrap, it is not that difficult to acheive.

[AON]

By miniature you mean extreme short (baby) chisels?

And you've space to install the hanging and lodging knees?

Are your fingers slimmer than mine?  🤣😂😇

Edited February 1 by AON

[Wintergreen]

Just like druxey described. Mark the width of the notch with the favourite no11, then carefully chip away. My mini chisels are 2, 3, 4 mm wide.

We are probably addressing different kind of nothces also. I'm mostly thinking of the carlings. Since it is hard to the eye if they are not i straight lines. Notches for knees and stuff are another matter. For them I guess it is not the same visual eyesore if they are slightly out of plumb (or whichever angle they are)

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, AON said:

By miniature you mean extreme short (baby) chisels?

And you've space to install the hanging and lodging knees?

Are your fingers slimmer than mine?  🤣😂😇

I have the veritas ones and they are really nice, only about 3 inches long each.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/miniature-tools/chisels/72391-veritas-miniature-chisels?item=05P8501

[druxey]

Narrow, not short, Alan. I forgot to add; accurate markout with a very sharp pencil is also critical for success!

[AON]

I have the LVT Veritas chisel set and used them often but I can't imagine cutting these notches after gluing in place.

 

I guess by the time I'm done may have a different opinion on the matter but not today.

 

Also, I imagine needing to reach under the beam for holding lodging or hanging knees with a finger so not getting too far ahead would be of benefit providing room for my bear claw hands... but not having done any as yet I am likely wrong.

[AON]

Okay Druxey... I try... one day. 

[Wintergreen]

I discussed shortly my notching experience in the second post here. The first one shows the main hatch.

 

 

[AON]

I like how you used the stiff cardboard to square things up.

 

I tried notching on the model a short while ago. I had to open a notch a bit. I did not like it at all. It will take much more practice.

[Wintergreen]

Practise, we all need it 😉 

Good light and magnification devices are also crucial. 

But hey, do what works for you Alan.

[AON]

After seeing Druxey's image above I've decided, as a start, I will cut the ledge notches in situ.

 

I've been cut the carling notches and beams as a bevel. It seems I've been cutting them too deep. That might be what my problem is. If I cut them shallower it would be easier?

 

Druxey. Do you cut your's as a shallow pocket like the ledges?

 

Also, if there are no lodging knees for the first three and last four locations what supports that end of the outboard ledge beams?

Edited February 1 by AON

[AnobiumPunctatum]

12 hours ago, druxey said:

Narrow, not short, Alan. I forgot to add; accurate markout with a very sharp pencil is also critical for success!

 

Thanks for sharing this picture @druxey. It's interesting to see how complex the construction of the fireship is.

[AON]

Possibly found one answer to one of my questions in post 1646 above.

In the book Sailing Man Of War by Goodwin pg. 58/59 for The Orlop Deck.

Gratings were generally fitted along the outboard side of the bulkheads and at the waist.

They also state much of the flooring was removable

So it may have been grating set into notches in the beams?

Wait... that's another question.

I'll keep looking

 

Update... turned a few pages and pg 64 shows a photo of the orlop deck of the Victory... grating inset into the beams to be flush at the top.

 

Edited February 2 by AON

[Wintergreen]

1 hour ago, AON said:

grating inset into the beams to be flush at the top.

Probably makes sense, less to stumble on in the darkness down below.

[AON]

There is nothing I hate more then searching forever for information.

So to alleviate others from that predicament here is the info from Goodwin's "Sailing Man of War" on the Orlop deck construction with grating fitting along the outboard sides of the bulkhead and the planking being flush and removable.

 

First up is Page 59

Second Pg 64 showing hMS Victory. Funny thing is that I watched the walking tour videos of HMS Victory on YouTube and they do not agree with continuous grating along the sides. I can only suppose this changed over time and refits.

The grating battens run fore and aft so there must be a support under the grating ledgers on the sides as depicted in the NRG Capstan Kit.

In this case a ledge block on the carling beam (or the carling beam is notched?) and the vertical lodging knee on the outboard side (likely notched).

 

Update: on closer inspection of the above it seems the carling is notched out to create a supporting ledge.

 

Edited February 5 by AON