Enamle vs Acrylic

[popeye2sea]

Thanks Russ.   And Tim, I apologize for hijacking your thread.

[harlequin]

I find enamel paint covers ca glue far better than acrylic paint. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Popeye2sea,

 

To get a good coat of red you will need to prime it in white, or at least a very, very light gray. Same goes for yellow. I always prime white when painting red and have never used more than one coat. If you don't prime it first, the red (same goes for yellow) will always be off. Hope that helps!

[wefalck]

I'm on the third coat now and the blue molded plastic is still showing through.

To get a good coat of red you will need to prime it in white, ...

 

The cause and the cure: many red pigments do not have enough 'body' to provide full coverage. By definition red pigmentes/dyes reflect/permit only red light. The blue plastic only reflects blue light. So, after going through the red paint almost no light arrives that can be reflected by the blue plastic and it appears sort of black. Providing a white or (neutral) grey underpaint means that all the light travelling through the red paint can be reflected.

 

wefalck

[popeye2sea]

Thank you Spiff and Wefalk.  Your comments explain a lot.  I'll prime with white from now on.

[Spaceman Spiff]

You can use a grey primer for red, however it will show a little darker than if over a primed white. Tamiya fine primer in the rattlecan (only way it is available) - either white or grey - is awesome stuff. Personally, I use the white because it covers so good - I have used it as the white coat on several 1/48 F-4 Phantoms I have built.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Not saying it doesn't, but I have had the best success when attempting brilliant reds with a white primer than just the light grey plastic. Certainly not a professional painter by any means. It really depends on what look you are going for - so far, my model painting has been limited to plastics. For example when painting a 4th FG P-51 spinner and cowling in red, I prime it first because of the red's appearance in pics. Same goes for when I did the Luftwaffe's tulip scheme on 109's. I like Tamiya's white primer the best for those reasons.

 

Don't think that I am arguing with you because I am not. I am just speaking from what has worked best for me, thats all.

[wefalck]

Neutral grey would have the effect of toning down the 'brilliance' of a colour, without changing its spectral properties. I guess, when painting a wall etc. in red on a white basecoat, the effect could be just too stark. A grey basecoat would reduce the 'brilliance' of the red without changing its tone. For small parts on a small modell, however, you may want a brillian colour, but it depends on the circumstances.

 

A too brilliant red may make a part jump too much out from the rest of the paintwork. It also depends on what other colours are nearby: a brilliant red spot on a green background, for instance, would appear to be floating on it, which is not what you may want. So toning it down with neutral grey would bring it visually down into the same surface.

 

wefalck

[Spaceman Spiff]

^This. Of course, I always use Humbrol's Satin Cote as a final layer. Everything is weathered, too. Because operational aircraft, especially in those theaters, don't appear factory fresh unless they just rolled off the line or repainted. With that said, I like to go for the effect as it appears in pics. The brilliance is still there but toned a bit after weathering and final coat...

[gulfmedic1]

    A little up front disclosure:  Me and paint don't get along real well.  I prefer to use natural wood and only paint when I have to.  I have experimented with (and used almost exclusively on my SULTANA) India ink.  I have also used colored wood dyes.

 

    That having been said, I like acrylic because it allows (in my experience) more color variations.  By using the artist acrylics thinned with water you can get more earth tones and toned down colors rather than the very bright colors you get with many enamels. 

 

where would you find these wood dyes

[gulfmedic1]

I try to avoid painting metal. I usually chemically tone metal. However, I know that you can use primers on metal parts, but this also adds to the build up of paint that hide details. Chemical toners will not hide any details.

 

Bluejacket Shipcrafters sells Brass Brown and Brass Black toners and both of them work very well. They also sell a product to tone Britannia metal pieces.

 

I have heard great things about Winsor & Newton. I think Chuck might use that product on his models. The main thing to look at is to get some paint that is finely ground. That makes for a better paint job at scale.  

 

Russ

Russ

where do you get these chemical toners and how do you thin your acrylic tube paint

[Chuck Seiler]

Gulfmedic1,

 

   I use TransTint which I get from Rockler.  A Google search reveals other retail locations as well...even Amazon.  Pricey...2oz goes for about $20 but a little goes a long way.

 

   See the reds I ended up with on my 18th Century Longboat build log.  I'm not big on bright reds on a period model.

[gulfmedic1]

David B,

The brand name of the sealer I got from Michaels is - Decort Multi Purpose Sealer.

Dave

Dave so you can either use a sand sealer or use a primer or do they do two different things

[tradewinds]

I had the same question and am happy to have found this thread before creating a duplicate.

 

From what I've read here, there appears to be similarities between the two types of paint, but most shipmates feel acrylic is a bit easier to work with as the modeler won't need to use solvents to thin the paint or clean brushes. It was also noted that different brands of acrylics tend to mix better than different brands of enamels. Is this a fair recap of the conversation?

 

Can enamel and acrylic be used on the same model without ill effects?

[pompey2]

Worth noting that Caldercraft's Admiralty paints used to sell both.

But now are stopping enamel due to the declining demand vs acrylic.

[Jaxboat]

Hi Pompey: Another factor in Caldercraft's decision to exit Solvent borne enamels was stricter UK rules on shipping solvent borne paint and increase consumer concerns about toxic solvent inhalation.

 

Enamels "wet" surfaces better than acrylics allowing for better flow and leveling. Acrylics have come a long way in flow and leveling but still lag enamels and lacquers. It is much more difficult to formulate a gloss acrylic then a gloss enamel because of this wetting issue although ancillary wetting agents and resins have almost solved the problem. Color is solely the result of the pigments used in the paint.

 

Acrylic covers a large array of chemical types let alone various additives and co-resins used. 

 

I use acrylics because of the lack of solvent exposure and ease of cleanup

[kurtvd19]

I don't disagree about using gray primer under red paint - except when I paint the underwater oxide red.  I always use a black primer or undercoat before painting the oxide red underwater portion of a hull as the dark primer tones down the red a bit. 

 

As to painting with both enamels and acrylics on the same model - it should be OK to put enamel over the acrylic - it's always OK to  put acrylic over enamel   However, I would always test any enamel over any acrylic before applying to a model until you know it's OK.  Paint manufactures sometimes change their formulas w/o telling anybody so just because it worked before don't assume it will always work.  I am a big advocate of testing.  Weathering is usually done with differing paint types w/o problems.

 

When spending so much time on the model to not take the time to test the paints is a mistake.  I use paints from a single manufacturer and I did my testing long ago and do not do it now, but I also have a direct connection to the manufacturer and would be aware of any change in formulation before it happens.  They recently released a new primer that I tested extensively before it's release on model materials but not my current models (until after the tests).

 

The reason I advocate testing was backed up by an unfortunate choice of primer that was then painted over with an acrylic.  The acrylic paint would not cure and was still sticky after days.  It was assumed that the acrylic was bad and the whole thing was stripped and sanded.  Another acrylic was applied with the same results.  Testing ensued with several types of acrylics being applied over the primer - same results regardless of the acrylic color coat.  Switched to a couple of different primers and then shot acrylics over the various primers w/o an issue.  The conclusion was the primer was at fault.  My friend had bought the primer in Racine, WI and thought it could be a problem with that can or the stuff shipped to the Ace Hardware in Racine.  I had bought some of the same primer here in IL from a Home Depot because I needed a white primer for a special paint application I had planned.  I tested acrylics over the primer I bought here with the exact same results.  I used a couple of other primers with good results.  We had to conclude it was the primer. 

 

Checking around I found that every professional modeler I consulted said "stay away from that stuff" and named the primer at fault.  "Never use it - they change their formulas all the time and never for the better".  You will never see a can of Rust-Oleum in my shop after this experience.  I am very glad that my friend had the problem first - his model had broad expanses of hull where my job was a very intricate assembly that would have been near impossible to strip or sand adequately.  The new primer I mentioned earlier was received just before I had to use a white primer so I would not have bought or used the white Rust-Oleum stuff for the job.

 

Kurt