HMS Snake by drtrap - Caldercraft

[drtrap]

That's for tonight.

I'm waiting your help and thoughts about the placement of the guns.

In case I'll keep the standards guns of the kit, I'll be obliged to not place in position the sills, just to decrease the hight and the inclination of the carronades.....

[Beef Wellington]

The carronades do sit up rather high, higher than cannons, and on this ship the 32lb'ers are pretty big for the ship.  Its the same with the aftermarket ones as well.  A lot of this gets driven right back when the gun port patterns were installed and the relative height to the deck, seems even a 1mm difference can make a huge difference with the room for the carronades.

[ModelBoatMaker]

The carronades do sit up rather high, higher than cannons, and on this ship the 32lb'ers are pretty big for the ship.  Its the same with the aftermarket ones as well.  A lot of this gets driven right back when the gun port patterns were installed and the relative height to the deck, seems even a 1mm difference can make a huge difference with the room for the carronades.

I might be mistaken, but I am sure that would only alter the angle of the carronade and wouldn't make any difference to the gap that is left. Because the reason it does not fit is because of the distance between the gunport sill and the top of the gunport not being big enough?

 

Pete

[Beef Wellington]

I might be mistaken, but I am sure that would only alter the angle of the carronade and wouldn't make any difference to the gap that is left. Because the reason it does not fit is because of the distance between the gunport sill and the top of the gunport not being big enough?

 

Pete

 

Pete, you're correct.  I forgot that the kit carronades sit on the gunport sill, so the distance is fixed as you point out.  For what it worth, the carriages I'm using that mount on the deck give the same result, its just that they are susceptible to differences in deck-top of port measurement.

[drtrap]

So Jason with the carronades you plan to use you don,t need to fix or mount them on the sills...

Have I understood right ?

[Beef Wellington]

So Jason with the carronades you plan to use you don,t need to fix or mount them on the sills...

Have I understood right ?

 

Correct, they mount on a 'deck block', maybe easiest to see in pics below.  It is a half circular block that sits just below the gunport.  I did add some extra wood for the sills as you can see in following picture, this was to ensure that the gunport is the correct size, but I did not include an overhang.  Hope that helps.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/509-hms-snake-by-beef-wellington-caldercraft-scale-1-64-first-wooden-ship-build/#entry5974

[drtrap]

Hi Pete

I can't locate the pic you have uploaded showing the tip with the wood removal just to have seated better the trunions.... 

[normanh]

I found the barrels sat high for two reasons - 1st the pivot brackets protrude too far from the carriage, push them down further and put a small flat on the bottom of the white metal barrel mount helps, 2nd the lengths of the elevating screw can vary by a few mm thus increasing the problem, I built them up with a piece of brass rod - hidden as it was inserted into the carriage.

 

 

Norman

[drtrap]

I found the barrels sat high for two reasons - 1st the pivot brackets protrude too far from the carriage, push them down further and put a small flat on the bottom of the white metal barrel mount helps, 2nd the lengths of the elevating screw can vary by a few mm thus increasing the problem, I built them up with a piece of brass rod - hidden as it was inserted into the carriage.

 

 

Norman

I plan to shape the swivel brackets in a "rectangular Z" fashion (profile view) to decrease the distance of the carriage to the deck and accomodate better its fixing to the sill with the pin....In my work we call this a "Z plasty". 

In the other hand i'm thinking seriously to buy the aftermarket carronades that Jason ordered, or alternatively the cannon 9lb kits which I prefer better.

I don't know what's the reason of the "huge" (per pair) cost difference (15,29 Vs 6,71 pounds)....

[drtrap]

The carronades do sit up rather high, higher than cannons, and on this ship the 32lb'ers are pretty big for the ship.  Its the same with the aftermarket ones as well.  A lot of this gets driven right back when the gun port patterns were installed and the relative height to the deck, seems even a 1mm difference can make a huge difference with the room for the carronades.

What do you think Jason for the 24lbers ??

[drtrap]

I could upload it again tomorrow, but I thought you had decided to buy the Caldercraft aftermarket carronades so I deleted the post ?

 

Pete

You never know....

[drtrap]

Tiller arm in place, dry-fitted, no trimming needed.

Can you estimate from the relative distances and especially from the aft platform and the last gunport whether I'm in right place to start the tiller's and wheel's rigging?

Thank you, again

[drtrap]

Jason, Jim

do you have any special comment regarding the length of the tiller arm I've placed?
I dont feel very safe with the plans and I'm about to start the wheel's rigging.

Thanks

[Beef Wellington]

Jason, Jim

do you have any special comment regarding the length of the tiller arm I've placed?

I dont feel very safe with the plans and I'm about to start the wheel's rigging.

Thanks

 

I spent a lot of time dry fitting the various components and had completed the aft ladders to determine where the various rudder steering lines need to go so they don't interfere (the plans are horrible in this respect).  This took a bit of playing, but once done, I knew I could position the blocks, wheel and tiller arm with confidence - I think its the only way to do it to prevent an issue because once the aft platform is fixed it would be difficult to fix.  The rigging of the aft carronades also need to be factored in as well as it gets pretty cramped back there.  I ended up having to make my own tiller arm as I had an accident with the kit piece.

[drtrap]

I spent a lot of time dry fitting the various components and had completed the aft ladders to determine where the various rudder steering lines need to go so they don't interfere (the plans are horrible in this respect).  This took a bit of playing, but once done, I knew I could position the blocks, wheel and tiller arm with confidence - I think its the only way to do it to prevent an issue because once the aft platform is fixed it would be difficult to fix.  The rigging of the aft carronades also need to be factored in as well as it gets pretty cramped back there.  I ended up having to make my own tiller arm as I had an accident with the kit piece.

Thank you again for replying so promptly !

Edited June 7, 2013 by Stergios

[drtrap]

In my turn I think is better to place the tiller arm ropes first.

This way, I'll be more free in case of need to modify the inclination and treads of the aft ladders later without disturbing the so closed aft space .

[Beef Wellington]

In my turn I think is better to place the tiller arm ropes first.

This way, I'll be more free in case of need to modify the inclination and treads of the aft ladders later without disturbing the so closed aft space .

 

Hi Stergios, I'd still recommend you figure out the ladder placement as part of this.  A difference of 1-2mm in the block placement will mean the difference between the ladders fitting and not, its much easier to move the location of the blocks to than reconfigure the ladder - you may end up with the stair treads not being parallel.  Look forward to seeing what I'm sure will be an excellent result!

[drtrap]

Fine Jason, I'll change my plans. 
I do appreciate your experience and your mind of deep insight!

By the way, have you tried to order these 24lbs instead of the 32lbs ??

Thanks 

 

C85824AK Carronade Kit, 24lb, 1:64, C1795 (2)

[Beef Wellington]

Fine Jason, I'll change my plans. 

I do appreciate your experience and your mind of deep insight!

By the way, have you tried to order these 24lbs instead of the 32lbs ??

Thanks 

 

 

 

C85824AK Carronade Kit, 24lb, 1:64, C1795 (2)

Stergios, you must be confusing me with someone else! I'm learning this stuff just as much as the next man, sharing my thoughts only because I really value those of others - sure its not the only way.

 

I didn't consider the 24lb'ers simply because I wanted to keep as historically accurate as I could, purely my own personal preference. Looking forward to seeing what you decide.

[drtrap]

Hello to everyone.

It's very interesting to me to know which type of guns (size and type of carronades) finally you are about to place...

I'm waiting to see relative pics.

Thanks.

[drtrap]

Nothing it's fixed.

I placed the captain just to estimate the relative dimensions...

[Beef Wellington]

Looking very nice Stergios.  I'll post some photos of the carronades when I get them finished if they can be in anyway helpful.  The captain will not have much room back there when you get everything rigged and mounted

[drtrap]

Hi Jason and thnaks fot the feed-back!

I'm thinking to use cannon 9lbs kits instead of carronade kits (standard or aftermarket).

Is there anyone who believes that this option will affect seriously the whole "matching"?

Thanks

[normanh]

Not at all its your build, build as you wish to see her, after all the Crusiers were fitted out with Long guns rather than carronades, go with you gut feelings she will look great.

 

Norman

[Beef Wellington]

Absolutely agree with Norman, take a look at the log of various Cruizer class 'battles' that DFellingham has been putting together, its a great read, you can see that there were lots of different configurations - seems some did have the 24lb carronades as well.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/1036-cruizer-class-brig-sloops-of-the-royal-navy/#entry16906

[mort stoll]

Hi guys,

I agree with you. There must have been quite a few different configurations as there were so many of this class built. Has anyone given any thought to swivel guns?

 

Thanks,

Mort

[drtrap]

Hi again.

I'm having a look at the aftermarket carronades.

It seems to me that the more comparable (with the kit standards, in length) are the 18lbs (2,1 cm).

What do you think?

[molasses]

The only Cruizer-class brig to be armed with 9 pounder long guns was Cruizer itself and those were changed out to 16 x 32 pounder carronades + 2 x 6 pound guns before any of her 105+/- sister ships were built. At least two Cruizers had 24 pounder carronades substituted for the 32s, in one documented case after the captain threw most of his battery overboard to survive a storm. So far my research into the Cruizers (which is by no means comprehensive) suggests that the fore and aft platforms were common, if not universal, on the sisters to Cruizer. Many Cruizers, when refitted for the American theater at the outbreak of the War of 1812, were also armed with a 12 pounder "boat gun" - a 12 pounder carronade with trunnions mounted on a standard gun carriage. In some cases captains added to this armament with a second boat gun or another 6 pounder or two. For example, the Cruizer Frolic when it met USS Wasp had two additional brass 6 pounders at the transom ports (how those were worked is beyond my comprehension given the space limitations under the aft platform) the 12 pound boat gun set up on the forward platform and a very recently acquired 12 pound boat gun barrel lashed down on deck which the captain planned to re-mount and set up on the aft platform. Commander William Layman took command of Raven when it came off the ways in 1804 and removed the 2 x 6 pounders, re-planked over the forward gun ports (not the bridle ports) and the transom ports and then mounted a 68 pounder carronade   on a transverse (rotating) carriage on each of the modified fore and aft platforms.

 

The Snake and Victor ship-rigged sloops were armed as Caldercraft supplies the kit as listed above. By the way the masts on Victor were located a little differently than on Snake (NMM Greenwich has copies of the original plans available if someone wanted to build Victor instead of Snake).

 

Based on my monitoring of all the Snake builds (in preparation for bashing Cruizer slightly to build one of her sisters) it appears that the aftermarket 32s sit a bit tall for the gun ports without reworking them. Substituting aftermarket 24s or even 18s might remedy this and would be indistinguishable from the 32s except to someone who can spot the difference by eye alone.

 

Swivel guns were considered small arms, like muskets and pistols, and I have not seen any mention of them in my research into the Cruizers. I have seen them mentioned on privateers but their crews had a profit motive and would be reluctant to damage a potential prize making swivel guns an alternative. I did find reference to 4 pound guns in the tops of USS Hornet in 1813.

 

And thanks for the plug, Jason, you're very kind! 

 

I envy the very nice work all you guys are doing on what is turning into a very interesting group build of Snake. You are all going to be tough acts to follow.

[drtrap]

Thank you 

 

The only Cruizer-class brig to be armed with 9 pounder long guns was Cruizer itself and those were changed out to 16 x 32 pounder carronades + 2 x 6 pound guns before any of her 105+/- sister ships were built. At least two Cruizers had 24 pounder carronades substituted for the 32s, in one documented case after the captain threw most of his battery overboard to survive a storm. So far my research into the Cruizers (which is by no means comprehensive) suggests that the fore and aft platforms were common, if not universal, on the sisters to Cruizer. Many Cruizers, when refitted for the American theater at the outbreak of the War of 1812, were also armed with a 12 pounder "boat gun" - a 12 pounder carronade with trunnions mounted on a standard gun carriage. In some cases captains added to this armament with a second boat gun or another 6 pounder or two. For example, the Cruizer Frolic when it met USS Wasp had two additional brass 6 pounders at the transom ports (how those were worked is beyond my comprehension given the space limitations under the aft platform) the 12 pound boat gun set up on the forward platform and a very recently acquired 12 pound boat gun barrel lashed down on deck which the captain planned to re-mount and set up on the aft platform. Commander William Layman took command of Raven when it came off the ways in 1804 and removed the 2 x 6 pounders, re-planked over the forward gun ports (not the bridle ports) and the transom ports and then mounted a 68 pounder carronade   on a transverse (rotating) carriage on each of the modified fore and aft platforms.

 

The Snake and Victor ship-rigged sloops were armed as Caldercraft supplies the kit as listed above. By the way the masts on Victor were located a little differently than on Snake (NMM Greenwich has copies of the original plans available if someone wanted to build Victor instead of Snake).

 

Based on my monitoring of all the Snake builds (in preparation for bashing Cruizer slightly to build one of her sisters) it appears that the aftermarket 32s sit a bit tall for the gun ports without reworking them. Substituting aftermarket 24s or even 18s might remedy this and would be indistinguishable from the 32s except to someone who can spot the difference by eye alone.

 

Swivel guns were considered small arms, like muskets and pistols, and I have not seen any mention of them in my research into the Cruizers. I have seen them mentioned on privateers but their crews had a profit motive and would be reluctant to damage a potential prize making swivel guns an alternative. I did find reference to 4 pound guns in the tops of USS Hornet in 1813.

 

And thanks for the plug, Jason, you're very kind! 

 

I envy the very nice work all you guys are doing on what is turning into a very interesting group build of Snake. You are all going to be tough acts to follow.

DFellingham,

we thank you so much for your comprehensive reference!

I have placed my order and wait for the aftermarketing 32lbs and 24 lbs just to chequ in practise the relative dimensions.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Stergios

[molasses]

I spoke too soon.   Just a few minutes ago while reading the accounts of the HMS Penguin (a Cruizer-class brig) v USS Hornet, I came across a footnote in Teddy Roosevelt's narrative of the War of 1812 in which he references a letter by Hornet's commander. In this letter Penguin was described as having swivel guns on the capstan and in the tops but no further details about them. Typical practice was that these "small arms" would not be set up except as part of clearing for action.