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Ferit KUTLU

How to tie a rope to handrail

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I need a help...

How have I to bind a stretched rope to the handrail (no belaying pins on it)?

How must be the shape of the knot?

Then how to fix the coil?

Thank you...

Edited by Ferit KUTLU

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Don't know what your line of interest is used for, but it is unlikely that you want it to be tied with a knot or hitch that draws up tight and is slow and difficult to untie. Also sounds like there is plenty of line left over to make up into a coil, so any knot or hitch requiring the bitter end to be threaded through it's self would be a poor choice. There are several quick release knots available to use, I would probably just use the single overhand knot and tuck a doubled piece under the loop so I could grab the free end and jerk the knot apart, the coil could lay on the deck or you could lash it up with small stuff, every sailor has a knife handy to cut such lashings. Toggles are sometimes used as safety's on those knots or tuck a piece of line through the loop where a toggle would go.

 

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Thank you very much...

I think this solution:

To make a clove hitch, then for the rest of the rope to make a coil.

The coil will be tied to the incoming part of the rope to the clove hitch with its end part.

 

I will be thankful to hear that if it's a wrong solution and any other idea...

Edited by Ferit KUTLU

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What was said above is true: Nobody is belaying  running rigging on a railing. That is simply not realistic. Any running rigging, any line that must get coiled due to its length, is never going to be “tied in the beight” to anything. Running rigging needs to be adjustable, handled under tension, and for that you need a proper belay utilizing a pin or a cleat or some other disigned-for-the-pourpos fixture like a staghorn or nighthead.  Riggers would never provide a bare railing as a way to belay the line, they would provide a way to belay properly. If you have running rigging that has to come to the deck near the rail, I believe you will need a pin cleat or other belaying aperatus on or near the rail. Or failing that a Lead Block on or near the rail to take the line elsewear to be properly belayed. 

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Hi,

I am confused because on the plans Numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 ... belong to the lines coming from sails (running rigging).

There is no problem about Numbers 13, 17, 18, 20 ... because there are pins (little circles).

Please let me know which way I have to follow.DBBAD3A4-5905-4220-B97E-B16B26F524BE.thumb.jpeg.2b04774bbd6a64c6dbc9b3a821ea48f4.jpegA6BBAC84-98AB-4342-9F56-9616FB61E240.thumb.jpeg.4e6fd984e19fa1fd7a96cdead0a7df26.jpeg to follow.

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Cleats maybe? More pins? The reason I’m not believing that running rigging is ever intended to be made off on a railing, a railing bare of any fitting to accommodate belaying, is because of the frequent adjusting the lines require. It’s POSSIBLE to make running rigging off on a railing, but it isn’t seamanlike or practical.

my advice is to try to find ship models on the internet that match the time period of your ship and see if you can spot how the rigging on the railing is made off. Or, just tie the rigging to the rail and not worry about it or if it’s acurate or practical! It’s your model and sometimes annoying details detract from the overall fun of building. 

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I am not an expert on 17th century and earlier ships, but belaying running rigging on bare bars etc. was common practice, I believe. We have to be very cautious to apply in retrospect ideas of good seamanship that were developed in the 19th and 20th century.

 

Having said that, my preferred knot under such circumstance would be the clove hitch, if the free end is not too long. It also possible to make the clove hitch with a bight of rope taken double in order to avoid fiddling a long end all the way through.

 

In any case, the rope should go at least twice around the bar etc. so that the friction can take up a lot of the strain and does not pull any knot too tight for loosening. In this case one can also loosen any knot while the friction keeps the rope safely under tension.

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Just one more to throw in.  The following close up shows lines secured to a rail.  This same model of a British fourth rate from 1695 1100376821_4thrate1695.jpg.fd92e4fdac4495844f16ce5ec4dbdc5e.jpghas several running rigging lines made fast to the belfry rail as well.

 

Allan

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Many thanks Allan,

After this photo, I really feel satisfied about my decision.

Is there any closer photo to show how the coil was tied to the rope?

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 You need to go find a Seaman or a Working Cowboy, and ask them how they would tie such a line to a rail without open end access. Just doubling the line back on itself, making a couple of turns around the rail secured with a half hitch would produce a secure and handy hold-fast, throw another half hitch and you could hold the world. Reread carefully what wefalck said, believe there were some conditions about using the clove hitch you may have missed, his best advice was hidden from most who lack experience.

 

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Perhaps to add to what Jud just said and my earlier comments: a sailor (not sure about cowboys for lack of first-hand knowledge) would never hold a rope under strain just like that, he would always take a turn around some convenient rail, bollard, clamp or whatever to use the friction of the rope to break its force (I think cowboys actually have the saddle-knob for that). By crossing the loose end over that turn you can also use the friction between the two parts of the rope, which is very effective - in fact, this would be the beginning of tying a clove hitch. By doing so you have very good control over the rope. Otherwise, a gust may jerk the rope from your hands, or if you fail to let loose, it may jerk you overboard.

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Started early playing with rope. Me, over 60 years ago on my Cayuse Mare. Had to run her in a corner and rope her to catch her. Enough bad habits and tricks so no one but me would ride her, we got along fine. Bucked Dad off 3 times in a row before she had him properly educated that she was my horse, not his.         

   image.thumb.jpeg.05ec5c9a86c8cbee598d9459b62cf895.jpeg          

Edited by jud

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Quote

PINS, for belaying ropes to, are turned wooden pins, with a shoulder near the middle; the small end is driven through the rough tree rails, or racks of thin plank made on purpose. Iron belaying-pins are round, taper from the middle to each end, and are driven in the rails, or racks, to belay the ropes to, by taking several cross turns about them.

Quote from The Elements and Practice of Rigging And Seamanship, 1794, by David Steel, Rigging  https://maritime.org/doc/steel/part6.htm

 

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You don't need to go around three times before the clove hitch. The first turn of the clove hitch is enough as a break.

 

When talking about doubling, this didn't mean going around twice, but taking the rope in double, i.e. you fold the rope back on itself for a certain length and then go around the bar and tie the knot.

Edited by wefalck

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Single and doubling...

 

Please let me know your suggestion if the drawings are correct...

(Maybe for #3 and #4 to add around one winding before the clove hitch.)

Rail.png

Edited by Ferit KUTLU

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Yes, #2 and 4# represent what I meant by doubling.

 

Adding more turns around the bar will not necessarily add more safety, but it depends really on the specific geometrical situation and the amount of pull on the rope. The seaman will do instinctively the right thing, e.g. if one turn slips, he would add one more, etc. It is difficult to decide this on a theoretical basis.

 

In general, 'less is more', meaning that one would use the least amount of turns and knots possible. Any additional turns and knots makes it more difficult to cast loose a rope in an emergency. It is a sign of poor understanding of seamanship to add unnecessary amount of knots (as many landlubbers have a tendency to do)

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11 hours ago, wefalck said:

In general, 'less is more', meaning that one would use the least amount of turns and knots possible. Any additional turns and knots makes it more difficult to cast loose a rope in an emergency. It is a sign of poor understanding of seamanship to add unnecessary amount of knots (as many landlubbers have a tendency to do)

Or to put it another way - those who can't tie knots tie lots.

Wander through any small boat marina and look at the dock lines on the dock cleats.  Some are a neat job and others are buried under a pile of figure eight wraps of line.

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When I put the work into practice, I realized that #1 and #2 were wrong drawings...

The tip of the rope must be at the opposed side(where the rope came from).

The rope ends at the other side, beside of the rope coming from the sail...

😞

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