Cristiano

Small update,

now I am starting  the stern (without hurry)

In one photo can be seen the gunners windows, placed above the gunports.

For the stern, I cut the shape on a thin layer of balsa.

This will be the main frame and will be glued to the main body.

When it will be in place I will glue to it the wood strips to cover it.

For the decorations, I prepared the pieces of wood that will hold them.

these pieces will be added to the main frame only later.

In the photos can be seen the balsa main frame and the pieces that will hold the decorations.

Thank you Mark,

are surely ventilation ports/small loading ports.

This is a small ship and the cannons are placed only in the same deck/level where is located the cabin with the windows, so the ventilation ports results under that one.

In the attached drawing there is a detail of an ancient colour drawing of a venetian xebec.

On it can be clearly see the above discussed ports placed under the windows.

more progress:

-I made the windows for the gunners (no photo to show).

-I made again the drawing of the stern (a neverending story ).

The one showed is the stretched version, with bigger height in order to match the sloped stern wall (hope the english terms are good).

the light green window is the fake one, since it contain partially the rudder.

The stern of the "Beata Vergine" has the Virgin Mary painting instead of a fake window.

I attach another painting, of unkwon origin, which show clearly the type of hull of the ship that I am building.

The type of sails and rigging are different, but the hull shape is the same.

Is interesting to note how the stern shape of the ships in the painting matches the one that I am building.

The shipyard has opened again...

Due to the modifications that I started to made to the hull, I needed to cover completely the parts that will not be painted, since the old wood is with a different colour.

So I covered completely the internal bulwark with walnut strips of small thickness.

The external part of the ship will result almost completely painted and that operation is not needed.

This additional layer is useful since now represent the internal frame of the gun ports (see other photos).

I covered the misplaced old windows and now I can start to create new ones in the correct positions.

The next days will be used for the following:

-complete the internal frames of the gun ports;

-open the new windows;

-redraw the stern.

The last point is needed since I checked the original drawing and I discovered that is "distorced".

In fact the stern drawing doesn't consider the slope of the stern wall and so its height is not enough to match the overall stern.

So again I must stop and think...

In the photo of the drawing of the stern can be seen blue arrows.

They indicate what appears two small windows placed in the stern, near the rudder.

I saw them in another Venetian xebec, too.

At the moment I don't know if I will place them or not.

When I enlarged the painting of the "Beata Vergine", I saw writen on its stern the term "TARTANA".

Now that term is related to a fishing boat with latin sails, but probably three centuries ago was used for defining such type of ships.

Definetly the road of that scratch building is not paved...

Thank you Mark, sometimes the "heretic" walk is a lonely walk...

Not for faint of heart : I cut the "exceeding part" of the stern and placed a filler.

This is a crude image, I know...

Now the side windows will match more easily the shape in the drawing.

The filler will be reshaped and then I will add a thin layer of balsa wood as a guide shape for the complete stern.

But since this is a rather delicate part of the duty, it will be made after summer holidays.

Now I studied the windows position which, as can be seen on the photo modified with Photoshop, are now in a completely wrong position.

One key point of a military ship, either for patrol or war, is that everything has its own purpose, strictly practical.

So after evaluating the "original drawings" is clear that all these windows were placed as an aid for the cannons crew.

That was not clear in the "purchased drawings", since the scale of the ship in the purchased drawings was completely wrong and the result was that the windows were placed too high.

My final though is that I will close the existent windows and cut four new windows.

Again, with all these modifications, the ship must be painted, since it is rather difficoult to hide the patches on unpainted wood.

The windows named 5 and 6 are in a rather good position and will just reshaped.

The pink gunport will be represented closed and I will add its own related window (4).

The position of windows 4 must be evaluated carefully, since will be near to the "moved" wall cabin.

Another error in the "purchased drawings": the entrance of the tiller in the hull .

Since is clear from the original drawings that the head of the rudder enters directly into the above counter, I dig the hole for it.

It will be another problem to close the old holes...

I really don't understand why these differences are present, since the original drawing was very clear.

Why change it in the purchased drawings?

Now definetly I will stop the "shipyard" for a couple of weeks...

I know that my approach can appear a bit "heretic".

Basically I don't like fake ships models, or models of ships that never existed.

So I was disappointed when I discovered that the original drawings of this model where so much different from the ones I used for building the model.

That because the drawings I used were modified without an apparent reason.

In addition, after 20 years this model is far from my present level of historical knowledge and craftmanship, so I decided to "evolve" it, instead of get rid of it (the second option is rather complicated, since the model was made at a basic level).

Well, from my point of view evolving it can be considered a love gesture to this model...

I started the demolishing process!

Is rather easy to destroy something.

After a deep evaluation, I think that the modifications to be made are many, so many that it is almost like building 60% of a new ship...

In the photo can be seen the ship after the removal of almost everything.

In another photo I superimposed the drawing and the ship.

Obviously they not match perfectly, since the "purchased drawings" were different and the model was made accordingly to them.

The main problem is that the stern is actually more long that the one in the "original drawings"

A deep cut is needed...

In another photo are showed the main modifications in the shape to be done.

The author of the book were the "original drawings" are showed, Gilberto Penzo, warned that some of the drawings contains mistakes or errors related to scaling.

Probably the level of accuracy depended by the type of ship, their size, the date of the drawings and other factors.

Minor vessels, like that one, are not ships of critical importance so the level of accuracy was probably low.

Well, just to say that I found a mistake in the drawings that I need to correct.

One of the gunport is too much near to the wall of the stern cabin, so the last cannons cannot be rigged properly.

I need to move back the wall a little (other modifications to be made).

So I removed the wall, too.

The duty at the moment will include:

-cut a part of the stern (shorten the ship in order to preserve the original shape);

-remake completely the stern;

-remake completely the bow;

-remake all the decks and cabin wall;

-new masts and rigging;

-reshape the gunports.

In addition to the already work done, which was rebuilding 16 cannons, sewing completely new sails and wolfs decorations.

It remain very few of the old ship...

Luckily the largest part of the external hull will be painted, so my invasive modifications will be largerly covered.

All this mess after three-four months of duty will result in a more beautiful ship than the previous one.

Now the updates will be less frequent, since I will be absent for summer holidays...

Another update:

I completed the sails, finally.

In the second photo can be seen the complete sails as it should be arranged in the three masts.

As it can be seen, I changed again the sail plan!

Definetly a tormented mind!

But the truth is that more I study the paintings and books and more informations I get, so that the reason of such changes.

now the mizzen latin sail is different and is more similar to the foremast latin sail, and to the paintings find of these kind of ships.

I think in anycase that there are some big differences between the Venetian polacres and the French or Spanish ones.

When I check the drawings or painting the sails shapes appears different.

I finished the 16 cannons too, as it can be seen in the photo.

But finished is not the correct word, since they lacks still all their blocks (another boring section awaiting me! )

But I think that now I can take the model and start to remove the "material" from it, since the modifications must be obviously made on a naked model.

Another update...

The cannons are almost all done, 14 out of 16...

It is a real boring part of the project.

Now I am slowing shifting to the sail section of my project.

Since I now defined the sail plan, I started the sewing part.

The sails will be completely unfurled, as on my previous models.

I don't like the bright white of the cotton, so I added some colour to them, again as on my previous models.

I decided for a light pale yellow, which gives an "old" aura to the ship.

The best results are obtained using the decoupage acrylic colors, which have a big pigments size content in it and the colouring process on the cotton is more easy.

In order to have a more homogenous colour, i soaked them in a small bowl, where the "bath" has been prepared.

In the photo can be seen the result before and after.

Since it is "bath time" , I coloured the rope that will be used for the sail hem.

In the photo can be seen before and after.

I dipped it in coffee (an Italian coffee, so a concentrated one!! )

Now finishing the sails is the next step.

This too will be boring, since the hems of the sails using the rope above mentioned must be sewed manually.

Has a level of pain can be compared to the 16 cannons making...

In addition, I will start to attach the blocks to the cannons.

Each cannon has three blocks, so 48 blocks are awaiting me (another boring part! ).

As said before the sequence of duties was so strange just because I still don't want to move the ship from the sitting room before these details are ready.

The various key points of the ship details are proceeding...

the first photo represent the wolf heads for the two catheads (the ears are raised)

the other photos represent the two couple of wolf heads for each side of the bow.

I changed again the sail plan.

Now I definetly ended my tormented thought.

I changed the lain sail of the foremast, since now I believe that the previous one (which was loosely taken from the Amati plans) doesn't match with any painting or drawing that I saw on my research.

Now its shape match with many drawings that I saw.

At first I was worried not to overlap the main mast sails with the foremast one, in order to permit each sail to receive full wind, but the truth is that the latin sails in such type of ship were used also as in the attached drawing, so my first thought was partially wrong (and the Amati sail plan a little, too).

So below there is also the definitive sail plan of my Venetian Polacre (And I will strongly stick to it, now!)

The sail overall available area is raised a little, but the shape is changed greatly and now it leaves less "uncovered zones" between the main mast and foremast.

No more replacement are permitted, since I am already sewing the sails...

In the meanwhile I am proceeding with the cannons, which now represent the most BOOOOOOOOORING part of this section of the ship building: 10 cannons done, 1 almost done, 5 still to make completely.....what a pain!!

COLOURS AND MORE HYSTORICAL EVIDENCES (Finally!!)

My research around this type of Venetian polacre bring me to:

town of Kotor, of Montenegro Repulic.

It is an ancient and nice coastal town, once belonged to the Venetian Republic.

Inside Kotor exist a small maritime museum, see the link:

http://www.museummaritimum.com/eng/eng.htm

that museum contains various object of the Venetian Hystory and among all, two very important paintings:

first photo: the venetian ship "BEATA VERGINE", capt. Ilija Radimir, dated 1793

second photo: the venetian ship "SACRA FAMIGLIA", dated around 1780

There were various Venetian ships commanded by Montenegro Captains.

Two of the most famous captains of Montenegro were the brothers  Jozo and Marko Ivanovic, which commanded a small Venetian fleet against the turks.

Their fleet included ships like the ones of the two paintings.

There fought the turkish pirates in the Greece coasts around 1751-1756.

third photo: the battle between the Ivanovic Venetian fleets and the Turks in 1751 near Patrasso (Greece).

It can be see the type of colours of the Venetian ships.

Even if in black and whyte, my original plans matches with the colour of the BEATA VERGINE.

It can be seen the black triangle just below the first gunport.

fourth photo:

I modified the colour of my polacre accordingly to the "BEATA VERGINE".

I modified the latin sail of the mizen mast, since now I think is more compliance to the original in such shape (as it was in the purchased plans, too).

Everything start to fit adeguately....

THE CANNONS

Since the present xebec is a rather big model and has planted its roots in my sitting room, I want to remove it from there for starting the modifications only after some key elements have already been made.

Well, just because I have not much space for it elsewhere!

So I decided to prepare first two type of components that will take a bit longer to be made:

-The 16 cannons;

-The 7 wolf heads.

Preparing the above components will take at least a month...

I started with the cannons.

at the moment 4 have been completed and 3 more are almost ready.

that leaves 9 cannons more.

I think it will take around 10-11 days more.

The 7 wolf heads will be a more complex argument, since I will need to sculpt them.

in the attached photos: the cannons already made and a photo where an old cannon is compared with a new one.

Definetly an improvement! (well, is not so complex to make something better than this little monster! )

Thank you Doreltomin,

it is a pleasure to discuss with you about this "niche" type of ship and appreciate your comments.

Regarding the suggested drawings, I already knew them and where very helpful for the rigging evaluation.

The first three post were effectively the result of two months of duty...mainly on rigging, and many photos and drawings have been checked...

I have the "Vele Italiane della costa occidentale", and I checked it too.

The sail arrangement that I chose was more or less as in the attached drawing.

Regarding the gunports:

Many of the available commercial plans and ancient drawings show polacres with two full decks and a quarter deck, and I REALLY WANTED that the original drawings show something similar ( more fascinating and beautiful ).

I passed a lot of hours checking the possibilities and "exploring" each square mm of the drawing search for hints, but there is no way to fit two complete decks on such ship.

This ship is definetly too small and the size of the people is like the red ones in the previous posts.

In addition as you can see in the below image, there is present only one true line that defines a possible deck border (see the blue arrows), so I finished on agreeing with the average size of the author of the purchased drawings, that means around 35 metres of lenght of the hull alone.

In addition, the height of the quarter deck is not enough to justify an additional intermediate deck.

This venetian polacre should be considered as a small ship for patrol or escort duties, and not an armed ship for commercial duties like the ones of the French drawings, so the absence of the space needed for commercial goods reduces the overall size.

THE WINDOWS ANOMALY

When I built the model a lot of time ago I was puzzled by the strange position of the windows placed above the gunports.

their position reached some height that was technically useless for a practical use.

now finally with the original drawings I have discovered that the windows were in such a position that makes perfectly sense.

The overall lenght of the ship's hull is the same of the author of the purchased plans (well is a calculated aproximate lenght, since the original drawing doesn't have any numbers at all), but now everything fits well.

in the photo can be seen:

-photo of the purchased plan, where the misplaced windows can be seen;

-Autocad modification of the original drawing, with the two decks exalted in red colour and with a man positioned.

It can be clearly see that now the windows works really as windows!

Since I made the model accordingly to the purchased plans, many modifications will be needed, when I will start to scrap the model.

THE STERN

A study was needed in order to prepare the stern modifications.

There was an error on the way the stern is made, so a deep modification is needed.

in the photo can be find:

-the purchased plans stern drawing;

-the built stern;

I mirrored the original drawing stern, cleaned the image and made light common decorations, which I find on other venetian ships sterns of the same period.

in the photo can be seen the result.

THE WOLFS HEADS

A strange type of decoration is present in the bow of this polacre.

more or less is the same both in the purchased plans and in the original drawings:

a set of wolfs heads were present, in various points of the bow.

in the photo can be seen:

-the wolfs in the purchased plans;

-the wolfs that I made 20 years agos;

-the wolfs as in the original drawing (marked in red).

Surely the wolf heads that I made will be completely re-sculpted.

but there is one more head in the bow which is not present in the purchased plans (definetly a wolf pack!!! )

THE SAIL PLAN

After evaluating the historical period and other similar projects, I decided that the sail plan can be rather similar to the one made by Amati Venetian Polacre.

Other plans exist of other polacres of other countries, and the sail size are all more or less the same.

below can be seen some of the sail plans and rigging that I made with a CAD program.

I superimposed the orignal hull drawing.

The rigging is a rather complex part.

In the photos only few of the rigging that I made is showed.

Luckily, in the mid XVIII century the sail rigging was rather standardised, so I must not make too much odd hypotesis.

Note: I mirrored the top view of the hull, and evenly corrected, the drawing is still not correct.

So it means that the original drawing was probably focused on the hull drawing and only lighty on the bridges details.

More than 20 years ago I built from scratch a venetian xebec, from purchased plans.

The plans are available but are not made by the usual ships manufacturers.

They were made accordingly to original drawings coming from a Venetian archive.

In the photos can be seen some of the plans and the model that I made.

The model is rather big (around 90 cm long).

I always been puzzled by the strange shape of such xebec (a bit fat, hull not common on xebec).

Now finally I have found the original ancient drawings that originated such plans!

They are published in the book "Venetian Ships - Navi Veneziane" by Gilberto Penzo, Lint editor.

I discovered that the ship was a polacre, and the absence of sail plan probably generated some misunderstanding on the author of the plans thay I purchased.

The original drawings were a bit different and the typical polacre hull is more evident.

After that I decided to study a deep conversion of the model, in order to let it be more similar to the original one.

in the photos:

-one of the purchased plans, made in 1947 (first two photos).

-the original drawings (second two photos)

-the present model.

Well, I am not a true expert, but the final result will be less historically false than the present one, so in anycase will be a success for me!

Any critics to the project (even destructive critics!) and suggestions are always appreciated!

Is up to you, but consider that La Harpe has never sailed under venetian flag.

Came out from the Arsenale with French flag (and French name).

It was projected for 74 cannons but the French armed it with 70 cannons (28 of 25 french lb., 28 of 18 french lb, 14 of 8 french lb.)

I have not evidences that it was armed with 74 cannons.

Its life was very short and not so glorious (see my previous post).

So, are you sure that you want to build a ship with such sad history?

The "Leon Trionfante" parteciped to many naval battles and ended its life naturally after 24 years.

It can be considered at least a piece of Venetian history.

But I know that you are focused on a different historic period and the Leon Trionfante came out from shipyard on 1716 (too early probably for your desired period of time)

The biggest ships that sailed under the Venetian flag were probably the "Leon Trionfante" class.

They had 70 cannons.

The limit was not the technical knowledge of the Venetian engineers, but their...lagoon.

Since the lagoon has low depth, was not possible to maintain adeguately large ships.

In addition the "overprotected" Venetian shipyard (The Arsenale) entrance has a width limit for the passage of ships (see the attached photo, where now there is a bridge).

For the depth, the "camels" where used, but for the width...no solutions!

The first one, the "Leon Trionfante" that gave the name to the class, was a successful project and generated many ships.

Technically you can find several drawings of it in the book:

-page 107 and 142: complete drawings of the hull;

-page 170:stern prospective view (see photo);

-page 180: bow prospective view (see photo);

-page 182: sail plans of the leon trionfante class.

-page 242/243: complete hystory, cannon types, number and size and all the lenghts

-pag. 155: colours of those type of ships.

There are complete drawings available of "Aquila Valiera", again of 70 cannons, but an older type of ship.

The complete drawings unfortunately are in the other book: "Duri i banchi!"

Cristiano, is LAHARPE the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Which is the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

 

Hello, theoretically yes.

not all the Venetian ships arrived in the hands of the Austro-hungarians, only few.

Many remained under the French flag in Tolone or Corfù.

The Austro-hungarian take control of the Venetian ships that they found in the cities that they conquered.

La Harpe was captured by the Austro-hungarian in 1799 because it was anchored in  Ancona when they conquered the city.

But it was judged in bad conditions and sent to Venezia for repairs.

In 1802, when it was still under repairs, it was converted in "floating jail" and anchored in Venice.

Well, to be clear, it sailed under the Austrian flag only for the travel from Ancona to Venice...

La Harpe was a "1780" class, not a "Fama" class.

The last of the "Fama" class were Le Stengel and Le Beyrand.

But again, both those above ships, even in the hands of Austro-Hungarians, more or less never sailed under Austrian flag.

Le Stengel:

was captured near Ancona in 1799 and send later to Venice for urgent repair (the only travel done with austrian-hungarian flag).

It arrived in Venice half-sinked and was converted in a pontoon.

in 1804 the pontoon sinked completely.

was keep floating again in 1805 and converted in floating cannon battery.

then again converted in pontoon by second French occupation. in 1814 was demolished.

Le Beyrand:

after few campaigns under French flags, was converted in 1799 in floating cannon battery and anchored in Ancona.

the same year the ship was found sinked by the Austrian when conquered Ancona.

on summer 1800 was keep floating again and sent to Venezia.

It was demolished in 1803, but probably was used as a pontoon in those years.

If you need more informations, let me know.

The Venice ships under austrian and french domination changed name and flag many times in few years, and were not maintained properly.

The largest part of the Venetian fleet was destroyed methodically by the French soldiers when still anchored or in the shipyard, when they conquered Venice.

The Napoleon fury was a political signal, to punish the Venetians for not having supported him against Austro-hungarian empire.

So few ships remained intact after that methodic destruction.

When the French naval engineers arrived to Venice for evaluating the ships to be incorporated in the French fleet, it was almost too late, since the largest part were destroyed.

The one that was largerly saved was the Venetian fleet of Corfù.

So the net result of above considerations is that the Austro-hungarian empire has not taken many ships, but very very few.

I suppose that the book not available is "duri i banchi!", which was focused on galleys.

There is still one very "precious" book that you should try to find:

"NAVI VENEZIANE - VENETIAN SHIPS" by Gilberto Penzo.

LINT editor.

It is a book rather hard to find but:

-it is the most complete collection of original ships plans of all the venetian war ships made by the Venetian Republic.

Are all original drawings (mostly construction plans), coming from various different sources and collections.

223 drawings of ships of various size, from xebec, galleys, to polacre to ship of the line.

I bought it through Amazon, since IBS failed to find it from the editor.

below the link:

http://www.amazon.it/Navi-veneziane-Venetian-ships-Gilberto-Penzo/dp/888190103X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402080103&sr=8-2&keywords=navi+veneziane

Not all the drawings are provided with dates or explanations written on it, so an historical background is needed in order to evaluate correctly some plan.

below the link in the author website:

http://www.veniceboats.com/it-pubblicazioni-catalogo-libri-navi-ven.htm

technically you can buy it from the author too, but it is better to send an email to him asking for availability.

When the Venice Republic collapsed against Napoleon, the largest part of the drawings were dispersed, razed, destroyed, sold.

So this book represent the only way to have the plans all together.

Hello Dick,

you are doing a marvellous work.

I discovered your "shipyard" very late.

If you are looking for some additional material (scarce) in the web, I suggest to search using the old venetian term used for the carrack: the ancient Italians didn't use the term carrack or "caracca" for this type of merchant ship.

They used the term "nave tonda" (mainly the venetians) or "cocca".

So all the ancient documents in Italian language refers always to "navi tonde" and so the paintings.

The man in the below link should be looked closely, since it is one of the main hystorical experts of ancient venetian ships.

it is a ship modeller, too!

below the link of its own "nave tonda" model (nearly missed by Steven ):

http://www.veniceboats.com/it-modelli-navi-antiche.htm

and below the link to the project plans, on which you will find a "nave tonda" (the first one)

http://www.veniceboats.com/it-progetti-piani-navi-grosse.htm

maybe something can be still of interest for you, even if it is too late.

Hello Maris Stella,

Feel free to ask if you have some troubles on translating the books or have some question that can answer!

there is this additional book eventually, which is related generically on the mediterranean galleys.

As the previous ones, is full of drawings.

It Is of the same editor:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788890251146/ercole-guido/galee-mediterranee-5000.html

I didn't buy it because I think there is an overlap of informations with the other book of the galleys "Duri i banchi!".

The problem of the book "Duri i banchi!" is that now has limited availabily and can delay the expedition of the other one, too.

But if they have trouble on finding it, they will remove it from the order or they ask to you if you want that they send the other one even alone.

Well, if you want to have a complete range of small traditional mediterranean boat projects, there is also the following:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788820348335/bellabarba-sergio-guerrieri-edoardo/vele-italiane-della-costa.html

I made a brief review there:

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/6156-vele-italiane-della-costa-occidentale/

It is hard to find valuable books related to the mediterranean ships history, so when I find some I always suggest them!

Hello Mike,

My evaluation is done considering the typical positions and actions of the decorating figures typical of the stern of the ships of those period.

So the answers IMHO are:

-they are resting on nothing, since usually there were not pieces of forniture or ambient on those decorations;

-one hand of both the gods probably is touching the porthole;

-the other hand is doing something, since usually always a figure do something, like indicating with fingers an object or handling an object.

-Poseidon has one hand near the third fish.

-Hera IMHO hold an object (I coloured it BRIGHT BLUE in the below image), that cover partially her body and fingers.

I think it can be a vase pouring water or a cornucopia pouring goods, but it is just a thought.

But beware!

Chapman was a naval architect, so it was focused on drawing the hull of the ships.

The drawings of decorations was not of main interest for him, so maybe some detail can not exist at all, because he maybe has draw only a draft of the stern decoration.

Since the symbols related to Hera ended with the peacock, the object she is holding depends by the author of the decoration, so it can be flowers, cornucopia, vase.

Well, with the above considerations I ended any possible additional informations that I can produce, at least without starting to flying to much with fantasy.

Hello Mike,

I completed my hypotesis of the stern of the Unicorn.

Now the bodies are better defined.

I know that it is pretty useless to focus on such details, but that "mistery" intrigued me!

So I didn't want to leave the work unfinished.

In addition, I am working for myself, too, since the Unicorn lays packed on a my shelf.

I think the fishes (dolphins ?) are three (coloured in cyan).

It remains unsolved what is holding Hera.

She is holding "something that is spilling something", like a vase spilling water or a cornucopia spilling goods.

It is not surely a part of the clothes.

As said, this is my thought, not an absolute certainty!