JohnE

I knew a Caroline once and ... um ... sorry.
 
From 1650 to 1730, various desultory experiments were made with sheathing techniques and materials, including planking arrayed with copper studs. After the ship launched, it didn’t take long for the copper to turn green. The French called the overall effect ‘petit pois’. I can see the English calling it pease. Have no clue whether this is the ‘pease’ bottom Druxey speaks of. It’s just that the name caught my attention and got me going.
 
Masseille, H. Notes sur la sallsure et les procédés d'entretien des carènes Immergées. Peintures Pigments Vernis, Vincennes, 1933.
 
John

You might look into Les Editions du Petit Vincent : Reedition d’ouvrages a l’ancienne. http://www.editions-petit-vincent.com/  owned and operated by Herve Sasso, who is also the webmaster for Gerard Delacroix’s  Marine et Modelisme d’Arsenal.
 
He has beautifully bound, full size and complete, transcriptions/reprints of Ollivier’s Traite de Construction (somewhat expensive) as well as smaller sized paper bound versions that are very reasonably priced (~45.00 Eur).
 
The main transcription work is by Gerard Delacroix who published his monograph of Fleuron after careful study of Ollivier’s text. I think Gaeten Bordeleau is right – you will probably need this.
 
John

You might look into Les Editions du Petit Vincent : Reedition d’ouvrages a l’ancienne. http://www.editions-petit-vincent.com/  owned and operated by Herve Sasso, who is also the webmaster for Gerard Delacroix’s  Marine et Modelisme d’Arsenal.
 
He has beautifully bound, full size and complete, transcriptions/reprints of Ollivier’s Traite de Construction (somewhat expensive) as well as smaller sized paper bound versions that are very reasonably priced (~45.00 Eur).
 
The main transcription work is by Gerard Delacroix who published his monograph of Fleuron after careful study of Ollivier’s text. I think Gaeten Bordeleau is right – you will probably need this.
 
John

You might look into Les Editions du Petit Vincent : Reedition d’ouvrages a l’ancienne. http://www.editions-petit-vincent.com/  owned and operated by Herve Sasso, who is also the webmaster for Gerard Delacroix’s  Marine et Modelisme d’Arsenal.
 
He has beautifully bound, full size and complete, transcriptions/reprints of Ollivier’s Traite de Construction (somewhat expensive) as well as smaller sized paper bound versions that are very reasonably priced (~45.00 Eur).
 
The main transcription work is by Gerard Delacroix who published his monograph of Fleuron after careful study of Ollivier’s text. I think Gaeten Bordeleau is right – you will probably need this.
 
John

Well, a dozen dolphins done! I've secured the model permanently on the base and pedestals and set up a trial placement for the sweeps on one side. Comments, anyone?

Thankyou friends for your interest.
 
Sorry Frolic , my study of San Juan Nepomuceno is only in pdf format, no book.
It is only an amateur  work. In the begining my interest was only to get info for detailing  Artesania Latina´s San Juan Nepomuceno kit.
 
I live in Madrid, so I can visit Spanish Naval Museum. There are not only model there, they also let free acces to the museum archives. Even is posible to  take freely photos of their books or manuscrips.  They also sell digital copys of shipplans kept there.
 
Spanish shipbuilding in XVIII century, after Gaztañeta died,  was heavily influenced by french, then by british, again by french, and latter developed into a own style represented by Romero Landa (Santa Ana, San Ildefonso, and others SOL). San Juan Nepomuceno was built in 1766 by french naval builder Gautier, who ruled shipbuilding from 1765 to 1783, if you study her lines and frames you will find  it similar to french warships of her age.
 
Fort the ones interested in spanish shipbuilding or naval history, here you have some usefull links. All of them written in spanish:
 
First of all, I suggest you to download the frigates book linked previously by Anaga. Is the best book ever written on that subjet.
 
Spanish Navy Museum in Madrid
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/ciencia_museo/prefLang_es/
 
Catalog of ship plans collection kept at Museo Naval de Madrid (is possible to order, at very low price, if you compare to NMM).
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/multimedia_galeria/prefLang_en/21_fotografia_historica--coleccion-planos-buques
 
Spanish navy ship plans (this time modern ones, downloadables)
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/mardigital_biblioteca/prefLang_es/17_modelismo-naval--02_planos-historicos-buques-armada
 
Miguel Godoy´s site. Godoy is chief modeller at Museo Naval de Madrid
http://www.miguelgodoy.es/
 
Spanish Navy´s History and Naval Culture Institute. Lot of interesting info here.
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/ciencia_ihcn/prefLang_es/
 
History magazine published by Spanish Navy´s History and Naval Culture Institute. You can download them
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/mardigital_revistas/prefLang_es/03_revistaHistoriaNaval--01_catalogoRevista
 
Monographic Issues of the same magazine. Also downloadable
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/mardigital_revistas/prefLang_es/04_cuadernosIH?_pageAction=first
 
Impressive photo gallery about real size reconstruction of XVI Century whaleship “San Juan”
https://www.flickr.com/photos/koldoaingeru/sets/72157647797885246/
 
Artiñano “clasic” book about Spanish wooden naval shipbuilding
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/viewer.vm?id=0000165122&page=1
 
Several downloadable books about spanish sailing ships. The ones about Galleons are a must have.
https://independent.academia.edu/CayetanoHormaecheaArenaza
 
Antonio Gaztañeta´s notebook written during the building of Galeon “Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Animas”.
http://www.um.es/catedranaval/docs/Arte%20de%20fabricar%20Reales%20(original).pdf
 
Interesting text about Spanish XVIII century shipbuilding
https://pinake.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/navios-espanoles-del-siglo-xviii-i/
 
Encyclopedia of spanish shipbuilding of first half of XVIII century. A must have
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/multimedia_galeria/prefLang_en/21_fotografia_historica--coleccion-marques-victoria
 
http://www.um.es/catedranaval/docs/MDLV.pdf
 
Interesting downloadable book about history and building of spanish SOL at Trafalgar. It includes several plans
https://www.facebook.com/juancarlosmejiastavero/posts/426459410881239
 
Gautier´s wood regulations for building 70 guns ships
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/2022701/oai_rebae_mcu_es_178148.html?utm_source=api&utm_medium=api&utm_campaign=MOXSFEAGWV
 
Romero Landa´s wood regulation for building ships, from frigates to 100 gun ships
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/9200376/BibliographicResource_3000100245005.html?utm_source=api&utm_medium=api&utm_campaign=MOXSFEAGWV
 
Beautiful color plate of spanish SOL San Ildefonso, buit by Romero Landa
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/viewer.vm?id=0000185376
 
Downloadable book about spanish shipbuilder Romero Landa and his designs. A must have.
http://www.udc.gal/export/sites/udc/publicacions/_galeria_down/librariadixital/JoseRomeroFLanda.pdf
 
Downloadable book SOL Santísima Trinidad
http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/37296020/Santisima_Trinidad_140_Razones_para_la_historia.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1459167616&Signature=s1tQkQcWmckc6ZSIfio2pBuE5PY%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3DSantisima_Trinidad_140_razones_para_la_h.pdf

Ok, finished up the first pass at tweaking. Was reminded of what I have to do by something I saw on SawdustDave’s SoS thread quoting modelshipwright Bill. “Mediocrity will never do. You are capable of something better” – Gordon Hinckley. Darn good advice. I’ve been on Hinckleys.
 
There may be a few other tweaks, depending on what people find and how the buttock line sets project in 3D, but I’m comfy with this as a basic set of lines. Basic plans are 1:48, English/US measure; have gotten pretty good with scaling algorithms, so can also do Pieds du Roi, Pies de Burgos, or metric.
 
Now the fun/hard part begins.
 

Thanks, Mark. I'll adjust the waterline to represent the full-up LWL. That is probably the most useful and will help in coppering. The others will get into the principal dimensions document so people can fiddle with things a bit. They all have values for draft forward, draft aft, and draft in the middle (which is given in the records as simply half the sum of the other two).
 
Interesting to see how the trim changes as all the different components are added. At launch she floats 10po, 7pi, 9li, midships, and draws 3pi, 11po, 6li more aft than forward. 'Ayant des bas mats', she floats 11pi, 10po, midships, and draws 3pi, 9po more aft than forward. Loaded 'moins de biscuit' she floats 16pi, 3po, 10li, midships, and only draws 1pi, 10po, 4li more aft than forward. Fully loaded she floats 16pi, 7po, midships,and only draws 1pi, 10po more aft than forward. Wow, about 50% greater draft midships and differential draft reduced by half.
 
By 'moins de biscuit' time, her trim is pretty stable, only 1/3 of an inch of difference to make up forward, and only about 3 inches of draft left for the final 'stuff'. 'Moins de biscuit' battery height is 6pi, 5po, 6li. Cool beans.
 
J

Okey dokey, then. The pretty profile plans are finished and scales added. Top is French pieds du Roi, bottom is English feet. Fairly sure I got the scaling right so that pouces and inches scale as well.
 
I still have marking, labeling, and annotations, to do on the "techie" version, with all the reference lines, buttock detail, and bears, oh my, but that's fiddly bits. Then I have to figure out how to save it in a properly scaled pdf file so people can use it.
 

 
I wouldn't mind some input, though. I'm looking at 1:48 scale. My drawing space is 1:12, so I have lots of room to maneuver. Final, published, scale recommendations will be heartily appreciated. Also, suggestions as to additions to the basic lines plans are welcome. I'm used to doing 30-60 foot offshore racing sailboats. This is my first attempt at something of this scale and genre and need all the help I can get.
 
Thanks. John

Sorry for delays. Got a nice new 3D program but it needs OpenGL 3.0 or more. My legacy system has 1.7. Looked for a nice graphics card and found my power supply wasn't up to snuff. So new computer.
 
Oh ... My ... God .. !!! Can you say Woof .. !!!
 
I'm migrating slowly since all my disc boxes have SN and Activate keys on them, but I have no clue which tag goes to which version. Fortunately I register and folks at Corel and IMSI are very gracious once you get to them after 3 or 4 trips through the phone root extraction profile (pushing the wrong button).
 
Soon, soon. Will have to make a pitcher of Uncle John's Famous Baja Margaritas and fire up Master and Commander. This is just to recover my Wa, you understand.
 
John

Sorry for delays. Got a nice new 3D program but it needs OpenGL 3.0 or more. My legacy system has 1.7. Looked for a nice graphics card and found my power supply wasn't up to snuff. So new computer.
 
Oh ... My ... God .. !!! Can you say Woof .. !!!
 
I'm migrating slowly since all my disc boxes have SN and Activate keys on them, but I have no clue which tag goes to which version. Fortunately I register and folks at Corel and IMSI are very gracious once you get to them after 3 or 4 trips through the phone root extraction profile (pushing the wrong button).
 
Soon, soon. Will have to make a pitcher of Uncle John's Famous Baja Margaritas and fire up Master and Commander. This is just to recover my Wa, you understand.
 
John

The keel (quille), false keel (faux quille), and stem (l’etrave). Basic things, I know, but there’s some food for thought in even these beginnings.
 
Sané was quite complete in giving, not only the radius of curvature on the stem, but also the “rake” (elancement) of the member. Elancement has several translations, rake, elongation, overhang, and is a bit different from the normal quête (rake) in terms of specificity, although not in sense. Elancement of the stem is from the forward perpendicular to the top of the keel. From these two points, it’s an easy fit to a curve with specified radius.
 
The keel is moulded (height) 15 po and sided (thickness) 12 po. The keel extends into the stem by a forefoot timber (brion or ringeot) that extends the keel flat and adds a first portion of the stem curvature.
 
Although the orientation of the keel scarfs are irrelevant, the orientation of the brion scarf is somewhat important. If, as in the drawing, the angle of the scarf is away from the concave curvature of the wood, a compass timber need not have quite as severe a curvature. The same principal applies along the length of a curved member. Simply take an interior tangent along the endpoints of the concavity. Fiddly-bits, but something the yard-dogs would know very well.
 
The stem stars out moulded at 15 po, at the end of the keel, but gradually and gently slims down to 12 po, at the perp, which continues up to the tenon. Sided 12 po, all the while. The position and number of asarfs is completely arbitrary. The actual position and number will depend on the availability of appropriate compass timber. There is no rule.
 

 
Lot of fiddly-bits involved. More to come.
 
Ciao. John

You guys crack me up! Just think of it as putting the lass on a nice course of pilates, to tighten up her .. er .. lines.
 
Chapelle was always very concerned with the straightness/curvature of the buttock lines as they cross the waterline, as a speed indicator. Also, and it was known even back then, areas of higher water pressure would scour the copper and make it shine more than the rest. Areas of high water pressure along the hull are primary sources of skin/wetted surface resistance.
 
(OK, I’m going to give you all a hook, but please don’t push it) A polished buttock is indicative of a source of hydrodynamic resistance (please no references to cotton or satin sheets). In modern terms, decreasing a curvature allows quasi-laminar flow to continue further aft and increases the effective length. Moving the turbulent flow boundary further aft is a good thing. Sometimes, a few inches is sufficient.
 
In the period in question, the French were just coming out of the quest for the mathematically perfect ‘bow solid’. They were great up-front, but they seemed to lack enthusiasm for defining a ship’s buttock areas. Jean Boudriot, in his monograph on La Venus, made some special lines (a, b, c, d) that served to help visualize and configure the ‘buttock’ planking and timbering of la Venus, because it was so obscure.
 
This is inferential, and sometimes apocryphal, but the yard dogs at Brest hated planking the butt of the Virginie. Mark Taylor knows exactly why from his build of Licorne. So they shifted the positions of the aft stations, a bit, and made things a teensy bit more easy to plank. The ships worked and Sané liked the result. Of such small things, much comes.

A project to make/build plans for a French frigate.
 
A Virginie class frigate, Cornélie was launched in 1797, at Brest, and was built on the same lines as Courageuse, launched at Brest in 1794 (renamed Justice, April, 1795). Something happened at Brest (in the region of the buttocks), and these two ships exhibited such superior sailing qualities that Cornélie was subject of several sailing trials, under “Commandement du Citoyen Villemaurin, Capitaine de Vaisseau”.
 
One thing led to another, and Sané’ went on to design the penultimate Pallas class, but notably, the “lines” were from the Justice/ Cornélie, with minor variations to reflect the minor changes in principal dimensions instantiated in the Hortense class. Notwithstanding the Réglement of 1808, Sané prepared a document, dated March 1810, entitled “Devis d’execution des frégates la Justice et la Cornélie” whence he detailed every single line, in tabular form.
 
Why do this in 1810, when both ships were off the rolls, and the 1808 réglement was in effect? Maybe because they fulfilled requirements so well, that he simply had to have a record of these ships for his portfolio. Who really knows. Suffice to say that he did and they are taken as the sine qua non of Sané frigate design.
 
Something wonderful appears in the SHD official records for this and a few other devis’; there are marginal notes, in Sané’s hand, interspersed throughout the document, but there are other notes, annotated in light pencil, that serve to relate certain dimensions to their earlier form. I like to think these were annotations by Monsieur Boudriot, in furtherance of his research. I can’t imagine the SHD allowing anyone to deface their holdings, except for Jean Boudriot. Needless to say, they were totally appropriate and substantively important.
 
So why the Cornélie? A good question. Apart from the historical significance of the ship, I am, like Messieurs Boudriou et Delacroix, a hopeless romantic. She had 11 very productive years in service, the longest of any of her class, and saw action at Finisterre, the Med, and Trafalgar.
 
Cornelia is often taken as a Romanization of Helen: a woman who launched a thousand ships and whose beauty set the ancient world afire. She had to be a redhead.
 
Cornelia Scipionis Africana was the daughter of Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. She was the mother of the Gracchi (Tiberius and Gaius) and Sempronia, who married Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus (Scipio the younger). She is said to have been beautiful beyond the art of men to describe. She refused a marriage proposal from King Ptolemy Euergetes (king of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt) because she was Roman. A model of duty, virtue, and feminine pulchritude, Rome worshiped her, and upon her death voted a statue in her honor at the entry of the civic forum.
 
Right … The info comes from the French Devis d’execution of Cornélie, Justice, Virginie, Pallas, and Venus, from SHD. Some lines come from the build draught of la Justice, from SHD Rochefort, modified by Sané’s lines tables. Some fiddly bits and niggling details come from the NMM draughts of Virginie.
 
Should be good enough to go, don’t ya think?
 
John

Hello All, and Thank you for the ‘likes’.
 
Mark - Wood comes a bit later. This is the up-front part; developing the plan set. The idea is to do a complete hull construction plan – body, sheer, two half-breadth plans (horizontals and diagonals), disposition of frame, construction of bow and stern sections, detail of the pieces, scarphs, etc..
 
My paradigm is to build the plans following the same steps, sequence, and procedures that are laid out in Morineau, Duhamel and Vial, but using scantlings and dimensionality from Sané; somewhat the same procedure as if I was doing it in wood. There will be some gray areas, particularly since the fin du 18e siècle authors were concerned mainly with detailed descriptions of 74s, giving short shrift to frigates. But where these appear, I will run screaming to Monsieur Delacroix, or this forum, or wherever else occurs to me, for assistance.
 
After this part is finished, it would probably be time to make some sawdust and at least get a hull in frame in the shipyard. It will take a while to get the plans done because everything is from tables of dimensions and offsets, and will need to be plotted and smoothed so as to be fair.
 
Part 1 comprises, of course, the keel and all of its component parts, as well as the stem, the post, the brion (wood ahead of the forefoot), dead and rising wood, etc.. Where appropriate, I will attempt to give the French names for the pieces, in conjunction with the English.
 
One always seems to begin with an outline. I guess I’m no different. So I made a basic outline using the principal dimensions of a base Sané frigate.
 
As the different parts get done, I’ll append them into the ‘outline’. After a few iterations, it should end up looking pretty much like a ship.
 

 
Ciao. John

Sorry for delays. Got a nice new 3D program but it needs OpenGL 3.0 or more. My legacy system has 1.7. Looked for a nice graphics card and found my power supply wasn't up to snuff. So new computer.
 
Oh ... My ... God .. !!! Can you say Woof .. !!!
 
I'm migrating slowly since all my disc boxes have SN and Activate keys on them, but I have no clue which tag goes to which version. Fortunately I register and folks at Corel and IMSI are very gracious once you get to them after 3 or 4 trips through the phone root extraction profile (pushing the wrong button).
 
Soon, soon. Will have to make a pitcher of Uncle John's Famous Baja Margaritas and fire up Master and Commander. This is just to recover my Wa, you understand.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

I think I got it.  Or are at least darn close.  If not, I'll do another one.  
 

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

Hi ya Mark,
 
Found a pic I took of l'Hermione's rudder coat and the security chain details. I think your present coat looks darn good, but if you want to do a re-do, a picture might be worth something to you. I know l'Hermione was 25 years after Licorne, but things didn't change all that quickly, back then.
 

 
It's greased, sewn, leather. The maitre d'equipage (sailing master/bosun) says it's quite rugged, long-wearing, and flexible, so long as it's conditioned/greased regularly. Today, they use a Lexol type conditioner, but back in the day they would use the grease skimmed of the top of the soup vats (like British Navy slush) and hang poor Pierre out the stern port with a bucket of the stuff and a hand mop.
 
John

It's just like Mark said. The craftsmanship is simply impeccablr.
 
I also like your model paradigm. I can imagine Hardy sitting in the stern with his cheeks strewn with tears remembering the last voyage of his great captain on just such a vessel.
 
Thank you druxey for a build that is not only perfection, but also historically significant.
 
John