CharlieZardoz

Hi everyone! I wanted to start a new topic dealing with a few weird kits I've found in my research which sort of look like they've been based on actual plans from some sort of archive yet I can't seem to find any concise evidence that they existed or are just made up by the kit companies.   My thoughts are that a lot of these older kits were made by some ship builder decades ago and then sold to the kit companies who over time lost track of what plans they were based on.  But I am convinced that for most of these listed some real set of plans existed, possibly for a generic unidentified ship since I have to imagine it being a lot easier to make a model based on a historical plan than just made up in ones head. So this forum is an attempt to try and determine which plans (if any) were used for these models as a basis.
 
First up are two kits by Mantua HMS Sharke and HMS Shine. Sharke looks vaguely like the plan from the national maritime museum and Shine looks sort of like the armed Bermuda sloop yet has two masts.

A lot of the wood being used looks like pear is that correct?

A lot of the wood being used looks like pear is that correct?

Bonjour, avancement du mat d' Artimon: (pas facile cette conception Anglaise):





Au plaisir de vous revoir à Vazérac
Isalbert

Hi, some pictures of the tiller in court at 1 / 48th. The fact bareau 1.2 mm and overall about 3.5 cm.
Made with a lap and limes.
Good evening
 
Isalbert

Hello, Some pictures of the old lost forum.
 
Isalbert

Combrig makes great models. Im hoping they do more American pre ww1 ships in 1/350.

Combrig makes great models. Im hoping they do more American pre ww1 ships in 1/350.

I love these oddball funky looking pre-dreadnoughts.
 
There is a 1:200 scale card model of this available.
 
Cheers
Slog

Wierd. :/

Wierd. :/

Wierd. :/

Wierd. :/

French pre-dreadnought battleship Carnot underway sometime before 1896
http://dbpedia.org/page/French_battleship_Carnot
David B

Next are the torpedo booms. There is no bracket on the booms to hold them to the ship which exist on the real thing. I used parts of the oars from the Eduard Fret to add them. there were not rigged in most photos that I saw so I didn't even try, whilst I could have it just would have looked messy. I think Artwox could have done these in brass as other era ships have of these details, and that allows them to be swung out.
 
I took the old girl into the sunlight which shows her up nicely.
 
anchors, chains, props and prop guards to go, as well as the replacement 47mm. Then the lifeboats.

Hello, I'm polishing the inside of the hull.
 

 

 

 

Another photos...
 

 

 

Ill provide the artistic interpretation

Ill provide the artistic interpretation

Ill provide the artistic interpretation

OK! No more dry stuff! From here, the following will be the accounts of several battles, in which the Frigate John Adams engaged, in as part of Commodore Morris's squadron battling the Tripolitan pirates. The John Adams was under the command of Captain John Rogers, and the the officer in charge of the quarter deck guns was none other than Midshipman Johnston Blakeley, who was later the Corvette John  Adam 's first lieutenant under the above recited cruise to Europe under Captain Evans ...
 
In this incident, the Frigate John Adams, in company with the Schooner Enterprize, destroys a 22 gun polacre-rigged corvette of the Tripolitan navy, a tribute gift from France, thought to have been built around 1786.
 
Report of Captain Rogers in his after action letter to Commodore Richard Morris, dated June 30th, 1803.
 
"The Squadron having this moment arrived from the coast of Tripoli, I take the earliest opportunity to inform you in what manner they were employed during your absence, and which I hope may meet you approbation, Previous from the return of the Enterprize from Malta, the John Adams was stationed to the eastward of the town, and the Adams to the westward, at such distance to enable us to distinguish each others signals, and join our operations if it had been necessary. After the Enterprize's return, she was stationed to the Eastward, and the John Adams in the center, abreast the town, and in justice of Captain [Hugh] Campbell and Lieutenant [isaac] Hull, permit me t observe that their vigilance could not be excelled, of course such as to merit your commendation, however, the enemy having only two cruisers at sea, and those in port so closely watched that nothing of importance after your departure, except the destruction of the Bashaw's finest Cruiser, for the particulars of which, I refer you to the extracts of my journal:
 
'On the 22nd instant, at 1/2 past 7 AM, wind ENE, the Town of tripoli bearing  WSW, distant 6 or 7 leagues, , observed the Enterprize in the SSE, with a signal flying, its signification not distinguishable, made sail and stood toward her, at 8 ditto spoke the Enterprize, spoke the Enterprize when  Lieutenant Hull informed me that the large ship of the enemy had anchored close in with the shore., at 1/2 past eight ditto,  shortened sail and prepared to anchor with springs on our cable, discovering the enemy anchored with springs on his cables in a deep narrow bay, about 7 or 8 leagues to the eastward of town, a situation advantageous to defending their ship, and the same time observed the enemy gunboats beating up to their assistance, and a vast number of cavalry and armed men on the beach.. At 7 minutes before 9 AM, being in 7 fathoms water, and supposing we were in point blank shot of the enemy, commenced firing which they returned, and a constant fire was maintained for forty-five minutes, when the enemy's fire was silenced, at which instance the crew abandoned the ship in the most confused and precipitate manner, for those men as her boats could not carry, jumped overboard and swam to the shore. At this moment, being in  a 1/4 less 5 fathoms water, and the rocks appearing under our bottom in every direction round us, I thought it prudent to ware and lay the ship's head off shore, and in meantime ordered Lieutenant Hull to stand close in, as consistent with safety, and amuse the enemy on the beach, until our boats could be hoisted out to take possession. At 1/4 before 10 AM,  discovering one of the enemy's boat's returning to the ship (whilst we in the act of hoisting out our boats) [we] tacked and renewed our fire, and in a few minutes after had the satisfaction to see the enemy's colors hauled down, at the same time, firing both their broadsides, which was accompanied by the ship's blowing up with a heavy explosion which burst the hull to pieces, and forced the main and mizen masts perpendicularly into the air 150 0r 160 feet, with all the yards, shroud, stays, etc,  belonging to them, This ship was polacre-rigged mounting 22 guns, the largest cruiser belonging to Tripoli, and to appearance, a very fine vessel.
 
From the number of persons land, her crew must have consisted of more than 200 men, and from the advantageous position which she held, added to the shoal-less water outside her, she ought to have annoyed us very much, and have done very considerable damage, yet to the disgrace of Tripoli, we have received no injury. All the men which returned to the ship in the boat were blown up in her, and I have reason to believe the Captain was among that number, several men , which were wounded on the beach,  were seen to be carried off by the others, and vast numbers of others must have been killed previous to their abandoning the ship.'  
 
... The loss of [the Bashaw's] most valuable cruiser, must of course do him great injury,  and from appearances , I am in hopes that none of our merchant vessels will fall into their hand this summer.  The destruction of the aforementioned vessel, altho awful, was one of the grandest spectacles I ever beheld. After a tremendous explosion, there appeared a huge column of smoke, which a pyramid of fire darting vertically through its center, interspersed with masts, spars, sails, rigging, different parts of the hull, etc, and the vessel in an instant dashed to atoms."

Guys
 
All I can say is that I am careful and slow to a fault.  Its tough to get stuff done this way.   But I do agree everyone should just slow down.  Its what I recommend  a lot of folks to do...
 
Anyway...back to Cheerful.
 
I was able after two attempts to shape the boom crutch and create a procedure for doing so.  The key was starting with a much thicker piece and making the boom crutch a bit over-sized to start.  I cut out the boom crutch on a piece of 1/4" thick boxwood and carefully adjusted for three angles.   When completed it will be just 1/8" wide to match the width of the fashion piece.  Now that the starboard side is complete I can do the other and take pictures at every step.  This is certainly one piece that needs slow and attentive care to the angles involved.  The boon crutch must be turned inboard slightly so the boom can actually sit in it.  This is tough because the fashion piece and the side of the hull goes in the opposite direction!!!   This one piece took me over four hours to produce, shape and paint to a finish I found acceptable.
 
A few careful reference marks and filing...then turn the piece inward and you are good to go!!!   I will have a step by step soon.  You can see the second boom crutch over-sized and ready to shape in one of the photos.  Note the tail is left long so the proper angles can be created while sanding it shorter.
 
Because the boom crutch was painted black it might be hard to see in these photos but essentially the boom crutch must match the angle of the fashion piece when viewed from the side and from astern in two planes while being turned to line up with the path of the boom (or the main mast).  All while hiding the seam between the two pieces...thank God it is supposed to be painted black.  
 

 

 

 

 

I created the rudder port by flipping the hull upside down.  I made a pilot hole and slowly opened it up and shaped it.  I made the rudder first which is shown below.  This was used to test the size and shape of teh port and when I was satisfied I touched up the red paint around it.
 

 
Then it was time to add the small top section of the rudder post.  I designed the model so it was simulated and put on in two pieces.  The laser cut longer piece is shown in the same photo below.  I left a longer tail so folks can sand it down to fit their models.  The deck level will probably vary model to model and this takes care of the issue.  Once filed down to fit, it was glued into position and painted. To pull off the illusion I used yellow glue which sets up slower.  By having the rudder made I was able to tape it in position so I could get the correct angle for this tiny piece.  This step was crucial.   It was tweaked while the rudder was taped on temporarily.
 
The yellow glue gave me a lot of time to move it around so it was positioned correctly and creates the illusion of a one piece stern post.  A little sanding on the outboard edge and some filler and it looked really good after painting.  I still havent decided if I will paint the inboard portion of the rudder head.  I probably will as is stands out too much left bright.
 

 

 
And finally....I made some time to paint the windlass.  I havent glued it into position yet but here are some overall detailed photos.
 

 

And finally....the deck is planked.  This is a big milestone for me because it is the last really big  messy job to be done.  The remainder of the project will be small fittings and less sanding.  There will be less dust and less paint touch up.
 
The planking was pretty straight forward after having lined off the deck.  I just following the plan I drew on the false deck.  Each plank was tapered to match.  The scarphed planks were handles much the same way the drop plank was on the outside of the hull.  If I thought it was needed, I made a card stock template.  The scarphed planks were cut from wider stock (7/32" or even 1/4" wide planks). 
 
Next I will create the rudder port because it will be the last time I can turn the hull upside down without too much trouble.  Once that is done I will return outboard and finish off all of the details.  The boom crutches, boarding ladders, scuppers and channels etc.
 

 

 

Thanks John
 
The beauty of lining off the deck is that it allows you to create a great plan of attack.  If you connect all of your tick marks you will have a really good idea of how it will look.  If it needs adjustment then just sand it off and start over.  You can do all of this before you lay one deck plank.  Imagine if you just wing it and have half the deck planked...you are sunk.  Lining off the hull first helps you avoid this.
 
I will do this at the stern next and then start cutting wood. 
 
Now if you were just going with straight planks nibbed into the waterway,  would you need to line off the deck like this?  Maybe not.   But I think it is worth the extra work.  And keep in mind you want have to cut into your waterway and risk a cutting error with a bad joint while nibbing.  That takes a huge amount of time and careful chisel work.  So its pretty much a wash as far as the amount of time and effort goes.  
 
 
 
The contemorary model of a cutter shown below also has tapered and scarfed deck planks vs. nibbing.   You can see the tapering very clearly here.
 

 
Chuck