trippwj

Jules,
 
I am coming at this from a particular bias as far as my attachment of relative values.
That is POF model building.  The English plans are often detailed enough for me to develop frame timber patterns with almost no traditional lofting (i.e.  using XZ and YZ points to get the XY data that I need.)
 
The Dutch plans would essentially be following the directions for a design that are in Deane's Doctrine.   That is a lot of hands on lofting and the result is a best guess because of the number of choices that need to be made along the way.  One minor advantage with the Dutch hull is that there seems to be s long section on either side of the deadflat that are a replication - sort of barge-like.  The English started a slope change almost immediately on either side. 
Because Deane used arcs - a compass - something that I have taken as the core of whole moulding - there is a sameness with any design that follows the method. 
You are describing something similar. 
What Deane did using 5 data points per WL and a flexible batten on paper,  the Dutch appeared to do in the yard using the actual planking. 
 
I think that the Dutch used too much "you just gotta know" in their decisions for me to even think about building a hull using what data that they have left us.
I do concede that my long ago ambition to build Deane's Royal Charles 1672 - the one that came after the one that the Dutch stole - would be a fantasy rather than what the ship actually looked like.  There are no plans, jut the data that Deane started with. 
 

... those found so far. The condition of some of these ships is just amazing.
 
 
 

Best quote of the day!!

I hope you do not mind a disagreement on this as I think  it is good to have a discussion like this. 😁.  I have no idea what you mean by "normal" ship model drawings.  Many of us use contemporary drawings, contracts when available and scantlings from the Establishments and elsewhere when appropriate.   There are many small boat drawings showing the thwarts and tholes properly located including several below.   

Cheers
 
Allan

 
 
 

I just popped into the Hanthorn Cannery Museum (Astoria Oregon's other Maritime Museum), and found this title in their gift shop.  The gift shop is unstaffed with an honor system of payment, but for once someone was actually working there that day, so I had to pay actual money for it. The book is extensively illustrated, and not with the usual images one sees of these ships-- Marsh had access to the Oregonian's maritime columnist's personal images from his work during the war years, and the photos are outstanding and reproduced in the highest quality.  Despite the title, the book also covers Victory Ships, Casablanca Class flat-tops, and T-2 Tankers, also built by Kaiser yards in the area; a large section even includes other local companies supporting the effort such as Gunderson (Landing craft, etc.), Albina Engine and Machine Works (PCs, etc.), Commercial Iron Works (outfitting C-2s, etc.), Willamette Iron & Steel Co. (steam locomotives for Russia and misc. maritime work/outfitting), and Astoria Marine Construction Co. (YMSs [minesweepers]).   Hardbound at 256 pages; $50.00USD.      
 
Having just scratch built a variety of ships from this era with Portland connections (C-1, C-2, C-3, T-2, EC-2, VC-2), this book is a delight to have, though I might have to build a YMS and PC now . . .    It may not be the handiest resource for the modeler, but there are gems in the photographs, and the history is rich and compelling-- particularly for any interested in Pacific Northwest Maritime history.
 
Oh. . . the chap actually manning the gift shop that day?  The Author himself.   If you're local, pop by for the chance of a signed copy.

Chariot of Fame was a sister ship to the Star of Empire.  Lot's of description about the Chariot of Fame in Howe, Octavius T. & F. T. Matthews, but no description of the figurehead.  A little bit about some of the features (stanchions, knees, bottom color) in William l. Crothers The American Built Clipper Ship but no good drawings.  David MacGregor doees have a picture of Chariot of Fame and copy of part of the plans for both in his British & American Clippers (pages 122-124).
 
I do not have the book, but a snippet on Google Books of Donald McKay and His Famous Sailing Ships (page 103) states that as a figurehead, the Star of Empire had as a figurehead
 
"...the Goddess of Fame with outspread wings.  A trumpet was raised in the right hand, and her left hand, which was also raised, held a garland.  her girdle was emblazoned with miniatures of our distinguished statesmen.  The figure wasa robed in vestments of white, fringed with gold, its pedestal was ornamented with carved floral work."

That, unfortunately, is not in the narrative! 
 
I did stumble across a painting of the ship which can be viewed at http://blueworldwebmuseum.org/item.php?category=Maritime_Portraits&title=Captain_Oliver_Lane_With_Neptune%27s_Favorite&id=351&catid=76
 
From http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/News/BDA/BDA%281854-06-21%29.html we have the following:
 
Her bow rakes gently as it rises, and it is ornamented with a full female figure, blended with the cutwater, for the ship has neither head nor trail-boards, but is finished like a clipper.
 
 

Carl - I love the challenge of finding stuff!  Helps that I have a lot of good books to refer to...

According to the description in Howe & Matthews, the Santa Claus did, indeed, have the old elf as the figure head.  They also include a couple of pages about Neptune's Favorite, mainly about her various trips.  She seems to have been a fairly fast medium clipper. 
 
Howe, Octavius T. & F. T. Matthews American Clipper Ships 1833-1858 Vol 2.

I'm surprised she didn't sail on April the first or December 25!

Ho! Ho! Ho!
 
Just found a picture of her sailing card from 1854
 
Wawona59

Affirmative. The difference between the early folios in Fragments and the later folios is dramatic. Early folios (including the folio 19 image) are elaborate and watercolored. The later folios are much more technical. See Adams (2013) page 145 as a quick summary, references Barker (1986). Barker has perhaps the most in depth information available on the manuscript that has been published. I have a copy of the full Barker "Fragments" including the footnotes and drawings, but unfortunately neglected to note where I found it!  As I recall, I had to take snapshots of each page and paste into a Word document in order to obtain a digital version.
In Appendix 2, Adams provides both the transcription from Folio 35 (the midship mould)  as well as a somewhat easier to understand modern elaboration. If you are working from Folio 19 (the three moulds superimposed on the sheer draught) the narrative there is greatly simplified.
 
Adams, J. R. 2013. A Maritime Archaeology of Ships: Innovation and Social Change in Late Medieval and Early Modern Europe. 2nd Revised ed. edition. Oxford, UK ; Oakville, CT: Oxbow Books. Barker, Richard. 1986. “Fragments From The Pepysian Library.” Revista Da Universidade de Coimbra XXXII: 161–78. http://home.clara.net/rabarker/Fragments83txt.htm   Also see: McGowan, Alan Patrick. 1981. Tiller and Whipstaff: The Development of the Sailing Ship, 1400-1700. H.M. Stationery Office.   The figure below is excerpted from Barker.    

Here is an interesting figure from Olaberria, Juan Pablo. 2018. “Ship Design-Knowledge in Early Modern Europe: Royal Yachts and the Shared Knowledge of Ship-Designers and Common Shipwrights.” Doctor of Philosophy, University of Southampton. https://www.academia.edu/36363637/Ship_design-knowledge_in_early_modern_Europe_Royal_yachts_and_the_shared_knowledge_of_ship-designers_and_common_shipwrights
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
One of Barker's analyses can be found here - also extensive discussion of Sutherland.
 
Barker, Richard. 2001. “Whole-Moulding: A Preliminary Study of Early English and Other Sources.” In Shipbuilding Practice and Ship Design Methods from the Renaissance to the 18th Century: A Workshop Report, edited by H Nowacki and Matteo Valleriani, Preprint 245, 33–65. [Berlin]: Max-Planck-Institut für Wissenschaftsgeschichte. https://www.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/Preprints/P245.PDF.   Also see   Barker, Richard. 1988. “‘Many May Peruse Us’: Ribbands, Moulds and Models in the Dockyards.” Revista Da Universidade de Coimbra XXXIV: 539–59.  
Sergio Bellabarba offers an interesting theory concerning early ship design.
 
Bellabarba, Sergio. 1996. “The Origins of the Ancient Methods of Designing Hulls: A Hypothesis.” The Mariner’s Mirror 82 (3): 259–68. https://doi.org/10.1080/00253359.1996.10656602.  
There are also works by Steffy, Hock, Reith, and Castro that you may find useful.
 
 

Yeah, I feel kind of silly now - I see it listed in the References of your MM article. oops! 
 
 

Druxey -
 
I confess up front to not have the breadth of familiarity that you do concerning the designing of hulls. I noted your comment about Pett and, as I sometimes do, I wandered down a rabbett hole (see what I did there??Rabbett???) and came across a small piece, originally dated 1662, entitled Cono-Cuneus, or, The Shipwright’s Circular Wedge in a letter to the honourable Sir Robert Moray.  Since included in Wallis' 1685 A treatise of algebra, both historical and practical
 
The transcribed text of Cono-cuneus may be found here (without figures)
Wallis, John. Letter. 1662. “Cono-Cuneus, or, The Shipwright’s Circular Wedge That Is, a Body Resembling in Part a Conus, in Part a Cuneus, Geometrically Considered,” April 7, 1662. http://name.umdl.umich.edu/A67375.0001.001.  
European Cultural Heritage Online (ECHO) has an on-line version of Treatise of Algebra, including cono-cuneus (with figures) which can be found here (cono-cuneus begins on page 402):
 
Wallis, John. 1685. A Treatise of Algebra, Both Historical and Practical : Shewing the Original, Progress, and Advancement Thereof, from Time to Time, and by What Steps It Hath Attained to the Heighth at Which Now It Is ; with Some Additional Treatises. https://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?url=/permanent/library/H3GRV5AU/pageimg&start=421&viewMode=index&pn=430&mode=imagepath.
 
If you desire PDF (I know I do - makes the search and selective printing much easier) then that can be found here (note cono-cuneus starts on page 414, with the figures preceding the text. .
  Wallis, John. 1685. A Proposal about Printing a Treatise of Algebra, Historical and Practical: Written by Dr. John Wallis. Richard Davis. https://books.google.com/books?id=TXpmAAAAcAAJ.   I am not sure if there is direct applicability to the lower form of the hull, but his figures would seem to indicate tha is true.                

Ok, that has always been turned off by default, but I've now activated it so you should see signatures. 
 
The key reason for them originally being turned off was to reduce page download times over a mobile connection. We generally have fast mobile connections these days.
 
See how that goes.

Hello Greenstone,
 
What a great find! And many thanks for posting this here.
 
I think the book you found in the archives contains copies of the flags Allard published in his 'Nieuwe Hollandse Scheeps-Bouw' (New Dutch Shipbuilding) of 1695. This book was, of course, printed in black on white paper, but the wealthy could have these flags painted by artists. A couple of these 'painted' books can still be found in Dutch libraries and archives.
Tsar Peter probably saw Allard's book while he visited the Dutch Republic in 1697, and must have had these copies made. The book of Allard does not contain the first flag in 'your' book though, the flag of Tsar Peter I. This flag must have been made on a special order from the Tsar. 
This 'special' flag can also be found on the paintings that were made of the visit of the Tsar. For example on some works of Storck.
 
The flag you want to know more about is in Allard's book of 1695. In his book it is number 5. Here it is:
 

 
Allard gave the following description for this flag on page 13 of his book (my translation): 
 
"5. Unions Flag, as flown by the respective Admirals, and most important Captains in the expedition mentioned above. Being red, on which is written in white. For the Protestant Religion And The Liberty Of England."
 
The expedition Allard mentions in his discription of flag number 5, is described in the description of flag number 4. That is this flag.
 

Part of Allard's description of this flag number 4 (my translation again):
 
"4. The Great Standard as flown by H. R. H. of Great Britain, when he still was Prince of Orange, City-Holder and Captain-General of the United Netherlands etc. when he sailed to England with the Assistance-Fleet, on the 11th of November 1688. Being a white flag, with the weapon, as he carried ...".
 
Since the wrong spelling of the English words 'protestant' and 'liberty' does not occur in the book of Allard, the copyist who was hired by the Tsar must have made some mistakes.
 
 
On a different note: I am sure there must be more remnants in your archives of all the papers the Tsar gathered during his stay in the Dutch Republic in 1697. With any luck there would also be the ship design drawings he made under the supervision of master-shipbuilder of the VOC (Dutch East India Company) Gerrit Claesz Pool, or the ones he made under the supervision of Adam Silo. If you manage to find these, I will be forever in your debt... But, any find from 1697 written in Dutch will be highly appreciated too. I promise to translate anything you find to English.
 
I wish you a very good evening, and happy hunting in the archives,
 
Jules
 
 

79 years ago today 5000 vessels took part  in the largest combat landings ever made.   Ships and sailors from MANY countries took part and many made the ultimate sacrifice along with their soldier brothers,  Pics below are from our recent visit May 23 -25, 2023
  
 

Some of you may be familiar with the on-line, open access CORIOLIS: Interdisciplinary Journal of Maritime Studies. During a visit to their website today I found the following notice:
"The last issue of CORIOLIS was indeed the last issue of CORIOLIS. The journal has been a home for both seasoned and new scholars alike and the range of subject matter produced has been a treat. In the place of CORIOLIS, Mystic Seaport Museum will be producing a new peer-reviewed journal called MAINSHEET. See the description at https://www.mysticseaport.org/mainsheet/ CORIOLIS articles will be available at ijms.nmdl.org for the next year at which time the archives will transition to Mystic Seaport Museum's website. Thanks for your support over the last thirteen years."
 
From the Mainsheet website:
"In September 2023, Mystic Seaport Museum will launch an exciting new initiative, Mainsheet, a biannual peer-reviewed interdisciplinary journal, available simultaneously online and in-print. The goal of Mainsheet is to fill a gap in refereed scholarship on maritime studies that has been left open by the dissolution of the American Neptune and other like-minded journals over the last 20 years. While several excellent journals still exist internationally, Mainsheet will be the only publication of its type produced by an American maritime museum. What will also set Mainsheet apart are: its multi-disciplinary perspectives; its accessibility to a broad global diverse audience on issues past, present, and future; and its freshness of design and distribution. The editorial board will represent a national and international team of invited expert scholars from various fields and partner institutions, with guest editors for special editions."
 
The Coriolis archive can be found here: https://ijms.nmdl.org/index
 
 
 

Some of you may be familiar with the on-line, open access CORIOLIS: Interdisciplinary Journal of Maritime Studies. During a visit to their website today I found the following notice:
"The last issue of CORIOLIS was indeed the last issue of CORIOLIS. The journal has been a home for both seasoned and new scholars alike and the range of subject matter produced has been a treat. In the place of CORIOLIS, Mystic Seaport Museum will be producing a new peer-reviewed journal called MAINSHEET. See the description at https://www.mysticseaport.org/mainsheet/ CORIOLIS articles will be available at ijms.nmdl.org for the next year at which time the archives will transition to Mystic Seaport Museum's website. Thanks for your support over the last thirteen years."
 
From the Mainsheet website:
"In September 2023, Mystic Seaport Museum will launch an exciting new initiative, Mainsheet, a biannual peer-reviewed interdisciplinary journal, available simultaneously online and in-print. The goal of Mainsheet is to fill a gap in refereed scholarship on maritime studies that has been left open by the dissolution of the American Neptune and other like-minded journals over the last 20 years. While several excellent journals still exist internationally, Mainsheet will be the only publication of its type produced by an American maritime museum. What will also set Mainsheet apart are: its multi-disciplinary perspectives; its accessibility to a broad global diverse audience on issues past, present, and future; and its freshness of design and distribution. The editorial board will represent a national and international team of invited expert scholars from various fields and partner institutions, with guest editors for special editions."
 
The Coriolis archive can be found here: https://ijms.nmdl.org/index
 
 
 

One of my father’s interests/ hobbies was raising Aberdeen Angus cattle.  The hub of our farm was a large bank barn;  hay loft on top cattle down below.  When we bought the place the barn was painted red.  We later had it painted white.  The cattle didn’t appear to know the difference!  😀
 
Roger

From Nautical Research Journal, Volume 19- 1972
 
An extract from US Navy-  “Fitting out of Naval Vessels 1842”.   
 
“ Black and White are the only colors for the outside of vessels.  White, straw or green inboard.”
 
 

Green being an unlucky colour on ships must be an 'americanism'   Over here in Europe, green was a common colour on ships throughout the 19th century. At a time, when the wales were picked out in colour, one band was usually either green or blue. Some ships also had green hulls and it had been the 'corporate identy' for at leas one sailing ship and one steamship line in Germany. Below is a painting from 1833 by the foremost Danish marine painter C.W. Eckersberg of the corvette NAJADEN that shows green bulwarks, gun carriages, skylights, etc.:

Source: Wikimedia.
 
Who sailed those cooling steamers that transported bananas from South and Central America to all over the world ?
 

I think red was the cheapest color available. Also the reason most barns in New England are painted red.
 
Regards,
Henry

Ah, but Constitution is only 30 years younger than Victory.  Her original wood will be there for many years to come.
 
Regards,
Henry