Joe100

Excited to see that you’re in the end game now!

Looks excellent! I was emailing Mario Ghiglino a while back, and he’s probably the world’s leading expert on RN camouflage. He said the paint seems to have been a reddish orange, more red than orange. It quickly turned green in seawater. That’s the leading theory anyway.

Oh yeah, I know the motivation question well. I haven’t made a single piece for my HMAV Bounty in about a week. Your thread here kinda got me back into my KM books. I’m also writing a piece on a Bismarck-related subject, and I need to get motivated and get back on that too. It involves some new research that no one has yet seen, which I’m quite excited about. More on that later this year. Thankfully I’m down to 2 ship “projects”, both the research article and Bounty. Thankfully Bounty is at the mast stage, so up we go with that.

Since you’re getting to the painting stage, just remember the Italians used green anti-fouling paint. can’t wait to see more!

She really is shaping up! Exciting to see her coming together

Some detailed photos of her rigging, you might not have seen before. This should help when you get to that stage. Also take note of the rudder position signal. This replaced the red/green triangle system used on ships built before Bismarck. Personally, I felt the triangle system was easier to read at a distance. This is the original Builder’s Model for Bismarck. Note the as-built bow and bow the superstructure was intended to look. I like the original bow myself. The addition of the Atlantik bow was close to useless anyway.

No problem, if you have any questions let me know, my inbox is always open.

I know model railroaders use red primer for yellow. Brush painting yellow is a pain, I always airbrush it. The rafts on BS weren’t really bright yellow, they were more of a maize color. This is according to Draminski: he states this color, which I’m inclined to agree with that too. In the same time period, the rafts on Gneisenau were grey.

Better photo:

The mast was retractable to fit under the bridges on the canal. In Norway, TP’s mast was in the down position most of the time.

Some random Bismarck minutia, and some photos you’ve probably never seen. Bismarck’s builder’s plate: Smoke Screen Generators, and depth charge racks. Yes Bismarck had depth charges and the ability to lay a large smoke screen. Smoke screen canisters and depth charges were stored on deck for obvious reasons. Smoke screen canister hatches. Smoke screen discharge nozzles. Below are the huge oil stains caused when the fuel hose exploded in Poland during her final refueling. The starboard side is where the hose exploded, the port side was just bad housekeeping. Sundry random photos of Bismarck that you’ve probably never seen: Are rare photo of Bismarck with her mainmast retracted. Very rare photo of BS with an short lived experimental paint scheme. She was only in this scheme for days, maybe weeks, early October 1940. It was an attempt to make the ship appear shorter at a distance. This photo also shows her bright aluminum funnel cap, that she had until the end.

Sadly we will probably never know. I’m leaving out a VAST amount of detail on this discussion as not to fully hijack this wonderful thread that I’m thoroughly enjoying. Primary source documents exist, memos, etc. which I have read. They’re either inconclusive, or refer to systems in development. Other secondhand sources from The Baron, Kennedy, and radar experts like Geißler are speculative, and they state so themselves. Vexing isn’t it? The British signal that they’d lost contact wasn’t a ruse though, they really did lose contact when BS detached PG. It was a combination of a rare tactical good idea from Lütjens, and fatigue aboard HMS Norfolk. The RN ships had been at stations for so long that things were beginning to slip, and losing contact with BS was one of them. The RN also didn’t realize the Germans were reading their mail either. B-Dienst aboard Bismarck was a larger department than aboard PG, however between the two of them they were able to decrypt a fair bit of the traffic. Sadly, I don’t think we’ll ever know why Lütjens felt he was clear to send his Long Signal, all 4 parts of it… With it, he signed his, and his men’s death certificate. Also, I’ve been using the internal codes for the KM ships, which is just old habit. The Germans used a two letter code for all of their ships with BS being Bismarck, TP for Tirpitz, GU for Gneisenau, SH for Scharnhorst etc. they were pronounced with the German phonetic alphabet, so Tirpitz was widely known as Toni Paula, with her crew referring to her as Toni often. Bismarck was no exception, as Bruno Sophie. Fun facts to know and tell.

Sadly it’s all just theory. She may have had an experimental METOX aboard, and if she did, the antenna could have been anywhere, and it didn’t have to look like this. Later on when METOX was in service, the Uboats would sometimes run the wires elsewhere without the wood frame. If Bismarck had Metox, it was last minute and the wires could have been anywhere. And like you said, maybe they didn’t set it up until after they left Poland? Norway? The important issue is that we’re fairly certain that Lütjens was interpreting British radar somehow, someway. What is vexing is that Brinkmann of PG stated later after Rhine, along the lines that the KM needed to come up with a way to track British radar. If Bismarck had Metox, as the third most senior man present, he should have known about it. So that leaves us with a few other options. If Bismarck was using her other sensors to back-door the pulses, we run into another issue of wavelength. RN radars we’re using a band the Germans didn’t, and the technical specs of the other equipment on board shouldn’t have been able to pick up the RN radar. So, how were they doing it, and were they doing it at all? Did some bright spark figure it out on the fly using her known systems. The Lorenz equipment is a prime suspect, but problems exist here too. So a very complex topic boils down to either a field test Metox, Bismarck’s other sensors picking up the radar, or they were listening to the pulses on radio, which I am told is not impossible, but not likely. What we do know is that once Bismarck made her detachment maneuver with PG, the RN lost contact. The RN sent out a signal saying they’d lost contact, Group West also intercepted signals saying the RN lost contact, and Bismarck’s own B-Dienst unit decoded the RN cypher saying they’d lost contact and delivered it to Lütjens. However, after a number of hours, SOMETHING happened which lead Lütjens to believe he was still being followed, and sent out a message that would lead to his destruction. That “Something” has been interpreted as picking up British radar, or it at least playing a part. The “Long Signal” as it is known, was an extremely long radio signal sent back to Group West, informing them of nothing they didn’t already know. (we have to remember Group West knew most intel before BS and PG did!). The Long Signal lasted so long, that any idiot with a DF loop and a pencil could have pinpointed her location. It was one of the greatest blunders in naval history, and Lütjens holds the distinction of making 2 massive historic miscalculations on the same mission! Radio silence should have been maintained, not only out of an abundance of caution, but common sense too. Something though, made Lütjens miscalculate. Massively. There is a document that details British radar tracking Bismarck. It was a top secret document created by Raeder’s chief of staff, Vice Adm. Kurt Fricke, titled “Feindliche Ortung” or Enemy Tracking. It makes no mention of METOX aboard Bismarck, as a deployed unit or prototype. One of the great unanswered questions of the Bismarck saga, and probably the most important.

Glad you like. The more detail, the better. This isn’t the main rigging diagrams, those I’ll send you later once you’re at that stage, this little drawing I did was more for fun, to show what it all did. Don’t use it as a reference for your rigging on the model, as I hand-drew it. I have infinitely better resources for you. With regards to the METOX antenna rigging, I’m not sure she carried it. It was noted that Group West did have an experimental unit ready around the time of Rhine Exercise, but it’s not known for certain if she carried it. The antenna was very small, and I’ve posted a diagram below. Maybe 18” at the widest. It is unknown if it was aboard, where they would have set it up. Sadly detailed photos don’t exist showing anything like it. It might seem like a small point, but the entire second half of the Bismarck saga rests on the method they were using to pickup British radar pulses, as it does seem they were. If someday it can be determined, it would be an important detail to model. Few aspects of her rigging are unknown, and this one is the most contested, and the most important. Sadly, the antenna wires could have just been run up the sides of the foremast or one of the splinter shields, all but hiding it. Interesting stuff (at least to me! Haha)

Certainly, I’m sure I can send the diagrams to you. The rigging is actually quite complex, and I’ve never seen it replicated 1:1. In this scale, with time, you could certainly do it. Below is a 2d sketch I did of what does what, simplified of course. Just for some general interest. So often we model items on a ship but have no idea what they’re about. Maybe this little drawing will flesh out what all those cables are doing. Doubly important when we realize that the loss of the ship is directly linked to a message sent from those antennae! When it comes to the rigging, remember the antenna cables themselves were not stretched tight. There should be a natural catenary to them. The only rigging that was arrow-straight are the stays holding up the masts, the rest should be a bit loose. The cables hang from the masts vertically, not pulled right horizontally. You can see this detail in many photos. Also, it’s worth mentioning that Bismarck did sail with several items not yet installed. One relating to the rigging is the night signal system. This was a series of challenge lights hung vertically near the admiral’s bridge, they were used as a visual form of IFF. Bismarck *seems* to have had the old system installed in addition to the new, one-off system you see above the admiral’s bridge and to either side. I’ve made a little diagram for you below. Often the items noted in burgundy are labeled as “radar detectors”, which they certainly weren’t. The only system available to Bismarck in 1941 was METOX, and METOX didn’t use an antenna like that at all, it was a pyramid shape, and not very big. It’s disputed if METOX was installed aboard Bismarck, anyway. What we see here has blinders, so night signal system it is. I think both were installed aboard Bismarck, the vertical lights, and the horizontal lights. I’m not sure if both systems were used together or if the horizontal system wasn’t in service yet. Just make sure you model the vertical lights since they were definitely there.

No worries, if you need any help with the rigging please let me know. I recently made a diagram for another forum showing what all those wires were for, so I can definitely be of assistance if you need it.

Exactly! I’m amazed at the depth of knowledge here, it’s a treasure. Glad I could be of assistance

Stripping ships of flammables and niceties was common during war, and I’m not sure how much was removed from Italian ships, but with Roma commissioning during the war, with all of her nice interiors in place, probably not much. One of the most amusing stories of stripping a ship for war came from SMS Emden of the Ostasiengeschwader. Karl von Müller ordered all of the wood removed from the ship, and the order was carried out to the letter. Once it had been completed, he was informed that the overzealous men had chucked all of the wardroom chairs overboard as they’d been made of wood. Von Müller had to remind his men that it might be good to clarify a bit, since getting rid of chairs wasn’t exactly what he’d had in mind. For the rest of her short career, seating aboard Emden was always at a premium!

It’s funny you mention deck chairs, because the interiors of the Littorios were extremely refined compared to anything the British, German, or Americans had. The officer’s spaces were comparable to ocean liners of the late 1930s, and the rest of the ships weren’t shabby either. Compared to Bismarck, Roma might as well have been Rex or Conte di Savoia. The interiors of Bismarck are downright dreary anyway. I have a suite of probably 75 photos of Roma’s interiors if anyone is interested, I can post a few.

No worries. This signal can be seen whipping awkwardly in the wind in some of the films of Bismarck. The explanation of these large day shapes doesn’t appear in Knights Seamanship, so they were for local use. The full rules for their use are in the German seamanship books of the time. The other one you’ll see is circular in shape, however I don’t recall seeing it in use on SH, GU, TP or BS. However it can occasionally be seen on the Panzerschiffen.

That is the stowed Priority Passage day signal. It’s often seen in photos when the ship is operating slowly and draught constrained. It essentially tells all other vessels around that “I have the right of way, regardless”. It was a 3d rectangle shaped like a “+” with a mesh center. Here are some photos: And another photo which is a nice one of Deutschland showing the Priority Passage signal hoisted:

Very well done indeed!

Oh yeah, you’ll pick up a lot as you go. The Shackleton story sorta ebbs and flows depending on the time period. A decade ago, he was an all-conquering hero, however today we see him in a more realistic light. I wouldn’t go as far as to say he was a con artist, but I’m sure some of the people he owed money to would have thought differently. His poor preparations, especially for the Ross Sea Party, were negligent at best. Don’t get me wrong, I love his story, love it, but casting him as the greatest of all time is doing disservice to the story. At the end of the day, we have to remember he was always looking out for his image and always grasping at fame and fortune. He wound up with one of them in the end. Fortunately for Shackleton, the scales of history will tip in his favor and I doubt they’ll ever be any different. Im fine with that myself, however, I take a more balanced view of him, and sometimes what I’ve found doesn’t measure up. I hope you continue with your Shackleton research, he is always interesting and thoroughly entertaining. South! is a fantastic read and it will get your juices going, certainly. If you don’t want want to conquer the world after reading it, something is wrong. If you’re interested, I can send you some photos of some the items he used on his expeditions from my personal collection.

No problem! The book South! Wasn’t written by Shackleton, but rather ghostwritten by Edward Saunders. It’s still a good book and required reading, however it leaves out a lot of the things that made Shackleton look bad. If you want the whole story, and more of the real narrative, I can suggest others. Even Lansing’s “Endurance” whitewashes quite a bit. Once one digs deeper into the story, one finds Shackleton not always the good guy, and is usually the cause of his own problems. I own a first edition of South! myself, and it’s part of my Shackleton artifact “museum”. Im not sure if Saunders/Shackleton mention it, but Endurance was built in the Sanderfjord framness shipyard, designed Angarud Larsen, and built by Christian Jackobsen, shipbuilder. I have copies of her original plans, stamped in the corner and signed by these men. Very interesting. If you have any questions about Endurance or Shackleton in general, I’m sure I can answer them. He’s been an object of intense study for me for about a decade.

Gorgeous build so far, she’s a very interesting subject. Just a bit of history, she was privately owned by the expedition, so she didn’t carry the “HMS” prefix since she wasn’t a King’s ship. Endurance used the prefix “S/Y” for “Steam Yacht” as she had under her previous name S/Y Aurora. Aurora had been built for arctic sightseeing and hunting trips for the well-off. She certainly wasn’t the best ship for the Antarctic job and some of the expedition members and Shackleton critics did point out this detail on many occasions. However, she was available for purchase in the timeframe set out, but she wasn’t cheap. The fact she was vulnerable to the ice wasn’t lost on Shackleton or her crew. They knew full well that being trapped with any pressure meant the ship would be doomed. She simply wasn’t designed for the mission, no matter how well she was constructed. That said, she is widely regarded as one of the best built wooden ships of the era, but her hull shape just wasn’t conducive to Antarctic adventuring.