garyshipwright

Your very welcome sir. As you said there was a lot of variations on the theme. Just wish I could find more of the top and butt showing on the gun deck and would have done Alfred's gun deck like that. One thing is for sure , when ever I get to the upper deck, her planks will be done in the top and butt. On the Montague, they are already in my stash of plans sir. Was going to copy my wale planking according to her's but went with, hum come to think of it, can't remember who. Gary

Hi druxey. I would normally agree with you sir but I found two plans that show the planking laid out at the NMM, of the Tremendous of 1784. Her gun deck shows straight planks drawn in,J3001 and her upper deck J3002 which does in fact show the outside planking in short lengths, cut in top and butt. Also there is that one of the unknown 74 which shows the upper deck with straight planks instead of top and butt planks. One thing that I have thought about Steel Plates of her gun/upper deck. Her gun deck shows the binding strakes and the upper deck show the lay out of the planking along with the top and butt plank's. Guess my question is why didn't he show the lay of the planking on the gun deck like he did for the upper deck. We may never know sir. The other plans are the Venerable of 1784, J3049 and J3052 which also shows the lay out of the planks and her upper deck only show straight planks along with the Cressy of 1807 of her upper deck which show's straight planks. From what I can tell druxey, only the plan of the upper deck of the Tremendous, shows the top and butt planking. May be you eyes can make out more of the detal sir. Do you have any primary plan number's showing the lay out of the planking for the gun/upper deck of any of them. Would be happy to have a look at them if that's ok with you. Gary

Hi Daniel. I have to agree with druxey sir and from researching the deck planking for Alfred it does look that planking was straight parallel planks after 18th. From researching this, to be some what accurate on Alfred, there just doesn't seem to be to many plan's showing how the planks were laid before 18th. at least what I can find . The ones I have found show curved planking before 1800, which has been reduced in width as it progress aft and fwd. Another thing I have found is that on the gun deck the outside plank's was joggled in to each other and the upper deck out side planking was worked top and butt, which seems to be different then what Peter Goodwing say's in his book. It does seem that this was not always done, looking at other plan's. They only give rules for the out side planking and the binding strakes which were to be oak along with the first shift which was also to be oak. It does seem that laying the deck is a lot like running the plank on the out side, a jig saw but a fun type jig saw. To me, laying the deck in different width's and in a curve looks more pleasing to the eye's. More in keeping with hand cut plank's, done in saw pits. Here is a photo of Alfred's deck laid so far. If you want to see some plan's showing the lay of the planking, go to the NMM site and look up Tremendous 1784, and J7921 unknown 74. Once you start getting in to the 1810 ,1815 time frame planking seems to have been layed much different. Gary

Hi Remco. Thank you very much sir. Am glad you like the cannons sir and seems that your statement is just a little modest but I do thank you. Here are some more photo's of the gun deck with a few more details. Am not sure if I will leave the curve planking which is due to the curve of were the back of the cannon truck's land. May just plank one side for cannon's and leave the other side alone. Reason is that I just don't want to cover all of the detail up and am sort of stuck on the do I want to or not decision. :mellow: Gary

gun deck cannons

Hi Jim. Your post caught my attention about your cat heads and I don't believe that they was covered by the deck planking. Am not 100 percent sure but the most forward beam of the forecastle was very wide and had a rabbet on the aft edge for the planks to land on. On top of this beam the cat heads would set. I went through the book and most of the 50 gun ships show this type of set up if they had a beakhead bulkhead. Much like Alfred had. If you look in the 50 gun ship book by Winfield, on page 82 and 83 at the most forward end of the forecastle deck you will see this very wide beam. Also on page114 that plan gives a side view of the beam setting behind the beakhead platform. Am not quite sure why McKay shows the deck planking covering up the cat head beam which looks a little odd to me. Of course it being you ship, you can do it as you see fit sir. Here is a picture of Alfred's beakhead along with one of the cat heads waiting to be finished. You will also see the large beam with the rabbet in the photo's. Just something to think about and might help keep you from putting them on to early. Gary

Hi guys and thanks for your kind word's. I finally have a little bit of a up date of Montagu. Work is keeping me very busy these days but did finally get the metal work done on her tiller. Do believe I will have to take the tiller out to get a good picture of it. Also have installed the sweep, gooseneck along with the tackle for the rope for the ships wheel. The plan is to try to install it like Ed did in one piece but being her wheel is two decks up might just not be the easies thing in the world but we will try. Enjoy the photo's folks hopefully I have more time in the future to work on her. Gary

Hi druxey. No sir no confusion at all and makes a lot of sense. Much easier to replace the tiller if broken and will probably be the way I do Alfred's. Thank you. Using tackle to hold it in place verse the long bolts. Gary

Thanks druxey and Mark. Good point guys and maybe they didn't but to look at the other side, why did they come up with the locking collar and bolt as shown in Lavery's book Arming and fitting, on page 21. Lavery says that it was a method of rigging the tiller ropes 1790 and mention the spectacle frame near the after end. Says the drawing is based on plans in Rees Naval Architecture of 1819. It does make sense about the goose neck locking the tiller and rudder together which just might explain why nothing is mention about this. Thanks again guys. Gary

Thanks druxey. When it comes to the AOS books am very careful with the information and try to back them up with some sort of primary research. There is one difference or missing item between the contracts and the French ship and that is the bolt that went through the rudder head and the iron strap, locking the two together on French ships. The English contract doesn't say any thing about this bolt so to me, this strap was more for strengthen the end of the rudder head, then to lock the two together. So going back to my question, how was they locked together during this time. Anyone have any ideals? Gary

Hi Daniel. Yes sir that is the same set up in the Diana and Pandora. Any time frame on it when it may of come in to use? Thanks Daniel. Gary

Have a question for the good members of the form which I can't seem to find a answer for. In 1780 or at least that time frame how was the end of the tiller locked to the rudder and what time frame did this start. To give what info I have, I have checked Peter Goodwin's book, Sailing man of war, which on page 136, talks about the tiller locating plate but doesn't give a time frame for when it may of come in to use. You don't really see this on models or plans but EdT in his log shows the same set up as shown in the AOS Diana when he attaches the tiller to the rudder to lock the two together. The Pandora of 1779 also show the same set up on page 71 item 20/21. True Pandora should answer my question but I have some doubts of things in them. I also checked the French 74 gun ship by Boudriot and on page 132 vol 2 they show a iron U shape plate fastened to the aft end of the tiller where it fits into the slot, and this plate protrudes forward enough to leave room for a ring to be welded on either side. They show a pin passing through the plate and the rudder head and forelocked to lock the tiller to the rudder. . Now were my question comes in is due to the contracts I have and after reading them it seems to point to the way the French did it, which is why am looking for a time frame or maybe some of the members have a contract that tells us about the tiller locked that EdT shows in his build log. The contract's say that the tiller is to have a strap of iron around the after end, of sufficient length, let into the wood and bolted with bolts afore the rudder head and to have a hoop and eye on the fore end for the rope. The strap of iron seems to be much like the French and nothing like what Goodwin mention's in his book. Any one have more info on this. I like the way Pandora and Diana shows it but looking for a answer to this one. Thanks in advance for the help guy' and gal's. Gary

Thanks Grant and Mark. Sort of got tired of working on the cannons so decided to work on something different and this time the rudder. I built a rudder earlier from a plan I got from the NMM and unlike the TFFM rudder this one is a little different. I sort of built two of them and this is the second one. The first one I ended up having a knot in, which the main piece is made of boxwood and figure that the knot would end up in the waste, at least that's what I thought. ( O well, it was fun making another one. Have finally got a chance to really use my little smith torch and it's a blessing to have it. Don,t believe that soft solder would have stood up to the abuse of all the cutting, filing and twisting that it took to finally come out with the finally braces. Still have some clean up to do, due to the metal work. Funny how even small metal work makes a mess. Any way hope you enjoy the photo's. I didn't add any small planks under neith the braces and to me it doesn't look to bad. Gary

Hi Guys and thank you. Guy,your very welcome sir and glad that you are enjoying the photo's hopfully more will come. Thank you Chuck,the hooks and blocks are a nice addition to the gun's. Thank you for them and should be ordering some more in the next couple of weeks or so.. Am sure you told me this but can you remind me of what type of metal you used? They seems to have a lot of strength. YaRus, According to the contracts I have, it gives the height of the orlop deck to the gun deck as being 6 foot 6 inches from the beam of the orlop deck to the bottom of the gun deck planks. The gun deck from the upper deck as 7 feet, which was from the top of the plank of the gundeck to the top of the upper deck plank. The upper deck height was at the quarter deck as 6 foot 9 and at the forecastle as 6 foot 6 1/2 inches which was taken from the upper part of the deck planking to the top of the quarter deck and forecastle deck beams. Remco your cannon's was a big help sir in the way that you rigged them. Your's gave me some thing to shoot for. Thanks Brian, do hope she is of some help to you as you build yours. I take it that you are following the practicum by Romero. It does give one good ideal's but I sort of went down a different path of building Montagu. For me I wanted a more accurate Montagu then what you would get using Harold's and Romero to build one. If you have any question along the way let me know sir. I do take it you will be framing it using Harold's type of framing and jig? Good luck and look forward to your build log. Well folks here is another update on Montagu and this time it's in making rope for the cannons. I have had a rope walk which was built by a good friend, of mine, Tom Nance, and purchased it from his wife after he passed away. It sort of been stowed away until I have had a need for some rope and after spending some time expertmenting I manage to make some rope for the cannons along with the messenger that you saw in the last post. It is based on the same rope walk that Frolick used in his book The art of shipbuilding. Another one of the photo's shows the pile of parts and pieces setting on the work bench waiting to be installed on the gun carriages, that is as soon as I have a little time to work on them. As you can see in another photo, my rope walk can be any length which at the moment is about ten feet long. . Gary

Hi Wayne. Sorry for not getting back sooner. Believe they came from the orginal Ships and Scale back in the 80's. Hope that helps sir. Gary

Hi Mark. the beeching rope is tucked some what under the cannon itself sir for inspection. That's why the tackles are frapped, that and I think it looks better then having them going to the deck and coiled. Of course there isn't going to be a lot of deck to set things on any way. I just may have to play around with the breeching rope and see how it looks in different position. Gary.

Thanks guy's B.E. your right and Remco also told me about the size, which of couse I didn't do. I did go back and changed the breeching rope along with the tackles to a right size and thank you both. The breeching rope is now .047 inch and the tackle is .017. Thanks for the infor on the gun and it's parts. As many times as I have looked at them and study all the parts to install on the carriage, you would think I should know them by heart. Here are some new photo's of the cannon but this time mounted on board Montagu . Enjoy the photo's guys. Gary

Thanks every one, your words mean a lot. After some time I finally do believe I have a almost finish 32 pound cannon. There is just a few details such as the metal hoop that goes on the end of the axle's and maybe a tompions that goes in the mouth of the cannon yet to do. I have not had a lot of time and had Chuck make me up some 5/32 blocks and hooks to rig the tackles. I tried the 1/8 inch blocks but they seem to be to small. Has far as the messenger cable I made a new one to replaced the black cable, and rigged it in place. Not sure how the two ends come together so I just may have to change that in the future, if its wrong. If any of you know how it was done let me know, will you please. Hopfully I find a few minutes to take a look. One thing that I though was neat is the small chain that hold's the trunnon key hanging down on the stbd side and it twin on the port side in place to prevent the trunnon opening up. Hope you enjoy the photo's folks as much as I enjoy building the cannon's. Now I only have another 27 to go. The pumps are undergoing maintence on them. After looking at the hoods, thought just maybe I install all of the upper part's of the chain pumps and leave the hoods off. Believe Greg posted a photo showing one of the swan ships with this set up and thought that might be a good ideal on Montagu. Gary

To add to what Mark as said, this comes from David Lyon's book the The Sailing Navy List, All Ships of the Royal Navy, Built purchase and captured. A Note on Rebuilding and on Establishments. At this stage in the story of the development of the sailing warship it is as well to clarify the way in which the two word rebuilding and Establishment are used here. The full story of the change of sense in which the former was used has been clarified by Brian Lavery, and the present author's researches have certainly confirmed the picture he has drawn. In outline form this is as follows. Up to the beginning of the War of Spanish Suyccession (1702) ships that were getting old, worn out, rotten or old fashioned would be rebuilt by being put in dry dock, taken to pieces to a greater or lesser extent, and then the good timbers reused in the rebuilt vessel. Rotten timbers would be stripped out and replace, and the pooortunity might well be taken to modify the lines, insert more frames(and therefore lengthen the ship)or to make other alterations to the shape, size or structure of the ship. The resemblance of the result to what had been there before was variable quality, but basically the term rebuild was and accurate description of what had been done. It is therefore fair to presume a degree of continuity between the ship before and after its rebuild. From 1702 this is no longer the case. Because of the need to use the comparatively small numbers of docks available for wartime repairs and refits it was undesirable for them to be occupied by a vessel undergoing rebuild-a necessarily long drawn out process. Instead, the operation was reallocated to slipways in place of docks. Increasingly, the ship might be taken to pieces on one slip and the rebuild on another, not always even in the same dockyard. Some timbers from the old vessel might be used in the rebuilt one, but in effect the operation became an administrative fiction for building a new ship. Ships continued to be described as being rebuilt into the 1740's when the pressures of a new war caused the term to be abandoned. It should be made clear the that contemporary documents then(and later) make a clear distinction between rebuilds on the one hand and Great, Middling and Small repairs on the other. Normally, the repair did not involve a major change in the ship, through there are a few exceptional cases in which dimension and/or appearance might change, and a very few when some sources use the word repair when the others use rebuild. In this work, when there is doubt the operation has been treated as a rebuild, and rebuilds are treated as new ships by being given separate entries, though it should be borne in mind that pre-1702(and therefore for all the ships in Chapter 1 and the majority noted in Chapter 2)there is a strong through variable element of continuity which diminishes rapidly after that date. Brain Lavery does give a good explantion of this in his book, The ship of the line Vol 1 page 64. Gary

Once the spirketting and water way was done I installed the 12 standand's per side according the the research I had. She really had 12 per side, and one at the stem and another one at the stern. They were used to strengthening the sides, and for resisting an violent or sudden shock. One thing is for sure, they will sure make installing the upper deck hanging knees a very interesting item to install.

Thanks every one. After doing the wale on the outside, I turned my attention back to the gun deck and started to install the water way and the spirketting. As far as the shape of the stakes, their shape came from the Elizebeth plan. Does seem that I am sort of stuck on the gun deck and hopfully once the cannons are done things will starte to move along.

Well guys, after finally getting all the gun deck ports cut in and the framing of the gun deck done I went to work on the out side of the hull installing the main wale. Montagu main wale was four strakes of 8 1/2 inch thick planks, with the upper two being locked together and the bottom two being locked together. When I mean locked together am talking about a hook anchor type of plank. Peter Goodwin shows this in his book but I also found to primary plans of it one being the Elizebeth and ,Montagues. I like Elizebeth wale and also her other planking that Montaguplanking is taken after her. Being that I don't have any ideally of which type was applied, felt safe following her's. Now when it came to the thickness of this planking I decided to do it in two layers both being applied hook anchor type planking. Doing the first layer like this gave me a chance to practice before I layed the outside layer and once it was done,it was dyed black and given a coat or two of wax. I wanted a black wale but didn't want to mess with ebony and one can not tell the difference when you look at it with ebony laying next to it. Another one of those interesting items that was fun to do.

Thanks Guys. Daniel being that the English orlop beams really didn't have much of a round up, maybe 2 inches, the rabbet for the plank's were cut on the table saw. Gary

Thanks guys your words mean a lot and does help one to keep going. As far as the next update it is the ledges and carlings of the gun deck. As with every thing else it does take awhile to get all the parts and pieces installed.

Hi Guys and thank you very much. Hi Ed. As far as the deck planking, I am planning on leaving off as much as possible accept for some that the cannon's will sit on. As far as the next item, I wanted to show the main mast partner which was a heavy bulk of timber. Most of how this part is laid out came from David's A book the The Fully Framed Model, The Swan. Any way it was one of those items that not only was interesting but a lot of fun to make.Montagu is made up of 8 pieces of wood and the photo also include parts of the chain pumps, which is part of fitting it. Hard to do one with out the other.