ClipperFan
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Rob, You have sharp eyes! I completely missed that feature until you pointed it out just now. That rudder pin looks to be about 6 1/2' long beyond the exit of the Stern, which is quite substantial. When you consider this must have gone up to the Poop deck, this spar must have been enormous. I arrived at that external figure by adding the distance of the 4' main bulkhead above and the 2' drop below where you see the shadow crease formed by the transverse timber. Now I better understand the issue you're facing. Obviously the little cut out isn't deep enough to accomodate such a significant piece. Here's an idea you might like. Instead of butchering the rudder section on your existing vessel, what about cutting a trench in the rudder piece so it slides neatly over that area? You won't have a flexible rudder but with a static display model, were you even planning to? The only other alternative is to cut 3/4ths of an inch into the rear of the Hull to accomodate this longer rudder mount. Again that's if you want the rudder to function. -
Rob, My sincere apologies, I think I missed correcting the rudder angle on Vladimir's profile. Instead of angling slightly outward as he had done, it should be exactly the opposite, canting just a touch inwards. I was so focused on getting her complex Counter and Stern details correct that I missed that rudder error. As you know, I very strongly disagree with most of this plan ("Clipper Ship Captain", Appendix B page 214), as we've proven over the past year, unfortunately it just doesn't measure up at all to many newer images of Glory herself that Mike has so generously shared with us. However ironically the rudder looks accurate. One thing I recently noticed when more carefully reviewing McKay's "Flying Fish" which I strongly suspect was a big inspiration for "GLORY of the SEAS" is that the rudder mount is not vertical. It cants slightly forward just a little. If you look carefully at Michael Mjelde's rudder section, you can see it. Again, it's subtle but definitely there. To verify this, look at the vertical lines, then look at the rudder line, it's not vertical. I also realized this when I had to adjust this section in my own exacting 1:96 scale lines. The shift forward from vertical is very small 1/8th" or exactly 1' to scale. Lines of my sketch are parallel and straight, the paper is just wrinkly. I hope this helps.
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Rob, when I look at the remarkable results craftsman like yourself and Vladimir produce, it's tough for me to not feel unworthy to be in the presence of such awesome talent. I feel I can at least contribute by doing my best to get the most accurate plans possible so that you guys can unleash your magic.
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George, thanks for letting me know about the ultimate fate of the USS Chesapeake. Ironic that they flew a flag saying "Don't Give Up the Ship!" Unfortunately they were ill prepared for the British Captain of HMS Shannon which easily tore them to pieces...
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Rob, wow! Amazing! These miniature vessel comparisons are spot on!! This is pretty much all the proof we need to confirm the year's worth of painstaking research has clearly produced the proper results we all have been hoping for! Congratulations!! Earlier today I sent Mike details on all the discoveries we've made and how our measured, scientific approach has completely reinterpreted what we thought about her appearance. I concluded with Vladimir's computer drafted bulwark profile and his bulwark kit created from it. He's so busy he just sent me a reply that he appreciated the in-progress pics I shared with him. So I don't expect much different from this last message but as soon as I can I will include your latest comparisons. It's uncanny how much they match.
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George K this is a beautiful vessel you're crafting. First rate work. I'm constantly in awe of the woodworking abilities you and others display in these build logs. It's artisan craftsmanship at it's best! Here's some fascinating trivia that you might not know. Captain Simeon Jones, who was the Captain of "Flying Fish" had a Greek Revival Home he named "Longacre" built for himself in 1860, at 490 Main Street, Centerville, MA suburb of Barnstable near Hyannis. It's still standing there today. Why I mention it, is because the front fence is supposed to be made up of turned rails which originally came from the Clipper "Flying Fish" herself.
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Rob, beautiful work as always. This vessel is definitely "GLORY of the SEAS!"
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Rob, Vladimir, You guys can both relax. I sent Mike 2 emails. The first has a dozen images of Rob's earlier progress on his vessel. The second has a dozen pics of Vladimir's progress. I'm expecting Mike will be suitably impressed with both of your models. I wanted to send him a 3rd with pics on how we developed our plans but I was too tired. The last damn side effect of my procedure. It's how I'm forced to realize I've still recovering.
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Guys, no pressure. Mike simply wants to see some progress photos. I think I've maybe complicated this issue way too much. For that, I apologize.
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Rob, Since I have haven't replied to his request for a couple days now, I want to send him something. Don't worry, you've already shared enough progress pics that I can work with what's already been posted. That goes for Vladimir too. I was just thinking if you had the chance you could shoot maybe a couple more. Either way, I'm very confident Mike is going to be major impressed with both of your projects.
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Rob, Vladimir, Later today I plan to email Mike some progress pics of both of your models. What I think would be most impressive would be to try to capture angles of your Clippers that most recognizably match the many scenes Mike has shared with us. That way I'm hoping it will go a long way to convincing Ron Haug to seriously reconsider his Glory plans.
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Vladimir, this is word for word, as taken from Seaways, Ships in Scale Jan/Feb 1992, Vol III, No 1 Michael Mjelde's article "Glory of the Seas - Medium Clipper Ship" an excerpt from Duncan MacLean's 1869 description of Glory's construction details: "the floor timbers are sided 15 inches and moulded 20 inches on the keel with 28 inches space of frames from center to center, and as the frames ascend, they vary from 12 inches by 14 inches to eight inches by 11 inches, and the bulwark stanchions at the plank sheer are sided 11 inches and moulded 8 inches." The way I interpret moulded vs sided is that the thicker dimension "sided" would be the part that makes up the backbone of the ship's ribs and "moulded" would be the visible width. So your visible stanchions would be 8" each, 28" apart center to center. Taking into account 1/2 of 8" is 4", your upper bulwark stanchions are 2' (24") apart. Of course, Rob can correct me if I have these dimensions backwards.
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Rob, I am not offended in the least. I will try better to make it known about my theoretical preferences so that you, Vlad or anyone else know it's not my intention to interfere in your personal visions for the models you create.
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Rob, to paraphrase one of my all time favorite movie lines "What we had here was a failure to communicate!" First and foremost I hope I would never be so arrogant as to demand another modeler, you, Vladimir or anyone else to revise their construction in any way to suit my personal taste. How rude! As you said to me last year, why don't you build your own model the way you want it done. Thanks to Vladimir I at least have bulkheads to be able to eventually do so. I'm even more rueful that you got the totally incorrect impression about how I would want you to finish your vision of Glory. That's your choice alone. My God you've been pursuing this vision for a year now! As I've said on numerous occasions as far as I'm concerned, you're crafting the most accurate 1:96th scale reconstructed from scratch replica of "GLORY of the SEAS" as is Vladimir with his marvelous 1:72nd scale version. Personally, I can't wait to share both of your progress with Michael Mjelde. I think he will be blown away! My entire focus from day one has been and still is to assist you, Vlad or anyone else interested in accurately building "GLORY of the SEAS" not by telling you what to do but in the spirit of true collaboration being able to arrive at the most precise recreation of this wonderful vessel. And I am humbled and honored to be a member of your group.....
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Rob, apparently my preference for an 1869 version of "GLORY of the SEAS" wasn't specified clearly enough. Of course it would be grossly unfaithful to reality to not weather her after many years at Sea as she clearly rests in the 1877 (?) San Francisco dock scene. I was referring to what an incredibly beautiful spectacle she was when her Muntz metal had that impressive, untarnished golden hue contrasted with her satin jet black hull polished as smooth as glass, her freshly applied 24 kt. gold leaf carvings and her lovely Grecian Goddess 'Athene' in glorious white, maybe some thin gold trim to highlight her gown. The way she must have looked when first launched. I personally feel the dramatic contrast between the two distinctly different time periods would demonstrate that as impressive as she was, in the end she was still a working vessel. I hope this clears up any confusion.
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Snug Harbor Johnny I remember Rob going into great detail about his copper plating process in his "Great Republic" build. Since that is a huge file to search thru, I found this fascinating link on a popular discussion of creating realistic, long lasting copper sheathing. I hope this answers your questions:
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Another interesting observation is that weathered Muntz turns dirty brown instead of light green (like the Statue of Liberty).
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Rob while I completely agree with your stance about weathering, which is how I usually made my models as a youth, I also think it would be quite interesting to see an alternate version of "GLORY of the SEAS" as she was originally launched in 1869, all shiny and new. Of course such decisions remain with the professional modelers. I'll be content to remain in the cheering section for now.
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Rob, if you only knew what a delight it is to see your rapid progress. After seeing the glorious golden hue of real Muntz metal, I agree copper itself looks garish in comparison. It will be so nice to see that replicated on your "GLORY of the SEAS". By the way, out of curiosity, how did you determine that shade of Rustoleum would recreate Muntz metal? That's amazing!
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Vladimir, in any pilot project like this, there are bound to be challenges along the way. I think your idea of getting laser cut bulkheads patterned after Model Expo's "Flying Fish" was and still is brilliant! Thanks in large part to your final computer profile, I was able to see why my drawings were so "barge like" in comparison. My sheer was way off. Too flat. While it's much closer and way more accurate now, I still haven't quite been able to match my lines with your graceful sheer. It may be the fact that you used ratios and I'm doing old fashioned measurements. I'm not exactly sure. Meanwhile, if you can post some real nice beauty shots which align with images Mike's shared with us, that would be great!
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***Update Again!!!! **** Mike sent another email to Rob and I asking to see progress on both models. With Vladimir's permission, I would like to send his computer profile and laser cut bulkheads developed from them. Then I want to send progress pics which compare your models in the same positions as the many rare photos we've been sent. Mike already mailed to Ron Haug the two photos of someone's model in progress with comparisons to Glory in the same position. Maybe Arina shared those with Mike? If so, it's most likely Rob's model. I'm hoping by sharing these images of 2 highly accurate Glory models with Mike who plans to mail them to Ron Haug, he will convince Ron to radically rethink his own approach to his vision of Glory being a "throw back to McKay's 1830s Packet Ships". So guys, if you want to do some additional real sharp "beauty shots" that would be very much appreciated!
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Rob, how's that old saying go? "Ach, The Haggis is in the fire for sure nae!" Turns out, I was copied on your most recent email from Mike. I took the opportunity to diplomatically say that Ron Haug's latest interpretation of Glory being a throw back to McKay's 1830's Packet Ships is in complete disagreement with the discovery I made that Glory's ratios in 2 important categories matched "Flying Fish almost exactly, with Glory having a 2' sleeker LOA ratio. I explained how you and Vladimir are creating 2 of the most accurate Glory models ever seen before, using laser cut bulkheads created from a profile developed by our months of collaborative efforts. I offered to send Mike progress photos, should he wish. Finally I told him if he would like, I can send him a copy of my 1:96 scale sketch of Glory's Hull which he could then share with Ron. We'll see what develops... **July 28th 2021** EXCITING UPDATE! In his most recent email Michael Mjelde requested I send him a copy of my 1:96th scale "GLORY of the SEAS" ship's lines drawing once completed. Finally it will be possible to have at least an opportunity to share what we've all developed over the past year. For me personally it could be the culmination of a previously inconceivable 12 year journey to correct a wrong made to Donald McKay's beautiful final Clipper. I owe it all to you Rob, in your own dogged determination to finally realize an accurate recreation of "GLORY of the SEAS!" That drive of yours brought myself, Vladimir and many others to join your vision. Ultimately that drew in Arina "TheAuthorsDaughter" who then got her dad, the great author Michael Mejelde involved. From the marvelous crystal clear photos he had gathered over 40 years ago, we have had the rare opportunity to visually inspect practically every inch of Glory. Vladimir lent his amazing computer talent and now we have not one but two beautiful models both being built simultaneously, on different continents, no less. These are heady days indeed!
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Vladimir my apologies, I forgot to ask if you were using the metric system. All of my calculations have been on, I guess it's called the Olde English measuring system. I'm glad you resolved your issue. Yes, when the docking port is the appropriate size it make the ship appear bigger. Kudos to you for reconfiguring it. By the way a new detail I just noticed, which actually makes sense is that the entire docking port is surrounded by very thin wood, like a picture frame. It makes sense that this port would be finished like that so that vulnerable strakes wouldn't be damaged. You have to look closely but it's visible in the scene of Glory on the Ways as well as in her fitting out scene.
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Vladimir, Rob's probably very familiar with the true shade of Muntz metal aka yellow metal. Here's an ongoing chat in Model Ship World that I thought might be of some value. There's actually a fellow who worked on "Cutty Sark's" most recent restoration who confirms the shiny golden hue is correct Muntz metal. In comparison copper is nowhere near the same. I've read that over time, due to extensive exposure to salt water it does turn green but what shade is beyond me.
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Rob, a trick I've learned to allow me to avoid upside down photos is to edit them slightly. In this case, I reduced both sides just enough to take out the white edges. Now when it's posted, voila! right side up! As for the confusion on Glory's coppering line. When she was originally launched in 1869, her copper line was specified as being 22'. Later, that line was increased by adding an additional line of copper sheets. Michael Mjelde has said since each sheet was 14" tall, this raised the height of her copper line to 25'. It would make sense that after a few years at Sea, the Captain being concerned about protecting his vessel's Hull integrity made a recommendation to add the additional line of coppering. It's actually referred to more accurately as yellow metal, but in America was it Muntz or something uniquely American that I'm till unsure of.
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