ClipperFan
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Vladimir, if you're going to incorporate this fascinating ridge, for lack of a better term, I recommend it be 3'6" drop below the sheerline. Your illustration of this feature, respectfully was too close to the sheerline, at 1:72nd (1"=6') this drop would be appx 1/2"=3' & maybe 1/16th" which translates to 3/8ths'. Not precisely 1/2' but I'm doing this in my head. 😉 That would exactly mirror the Naval Hoods. I have nothing more to go on, but it makes sense that this somehow could be the mounting point for all of the wrought iron that anchors all three shrouds. It only becomes more visibly noticeable as the fullness of Glory's hull transitions to her rear flank and Stern. What is most noticeable in the beautifully clear photo Mike sent us, is this is the directional default where her curvilinear Stern drops gracefully to become the sharp exit which is so beautifully noticeable in the this Stern scene.
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Rob, in no way did I mean to denigrate the unbelievably accurate model you are constructing. You mentioned being a little dissatisfied with your Stern (which I think is just beautiful) so I thought you might benefit from knowing about this fascinating feature of Glory's construction.
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Rob, it looks like a linear shadow. It's below the sheerline. What cinches that it's a structural feature, for me at least, is that when you look at the outer edge of the Stern, there's a noticeable change in profile at that exact line. If you re-examine McKay's twin Packets, count down 5 lines at the Stern, there's no molding but the line goes clear across the entire Hull. It appears to be about a 3'6 " drop below the double molded sheerline, which would align it perfectly with the lower Naval Hood molding. Vladimir saw it too. Somehow he even caught it in the 1869 fitting out scene. It's definitely there and may help account for the complex geometrics in creating such a graceful Stern.
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Rob, while I appreciate the joke, in fact the particular line I'm referring to has no molding at all. It's just a line that Vladimir & I identified a while ago. Below the sheerline molding, it's visible if you look closely enough.
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Rob, I appreciate your humility in altering your choice of painting the waterways blue. I think later on when all additional deck structures and details are added in, this will make a lovely, distinctive contrast.
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Rob, while your Stern is probably the most accurate ever realized in a Glory model yet, it is lacking one distinctive component of the real ship. Look closely below the sheerline and you'll see another more subtle line. I now believe this is a 3'6" drop, coinciding with the lower Naval Hood molding. That would mean that while it isn't so clearly distinguishable across her entire Hull it's still there. If you go back to McKay's illustration of his Twin Packets "Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame" that same thin line is there too. I surmise that perhaps this might be a mounting line for all of the wrought Iron shrouds as well.
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Rob, that is spot on! You simply have to share these with Michael Mjelde. I have a feeling he will be blown away! I completely agree with Vladimir's expression, as he put it succinctly and perfectly "My God, it's her!"
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gak1965 thanks for sharing something new with me. I never read the book you mentioned. It comes as a complete surprise that McKay originally considered painting "Flying Fish" green. Perhaps that's why Duncan MacLean made the wry observation that like Clergy, Clippers always come in Black. As for the Cutwater, that's a nautical device that always mounts on the Stem. Unfortunately, while this is an impressive kit which builds into a beautiful model, I believe the Bow is inaccurate. A figurehead tacked on with nothing to support it would be lost with the first wave. Better to have it incorporated into the end of the Cutwater, which is how Buttersworth has depicted her.
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Rob, the very fact that your Hull form, even incomplete bears such an amazingly close resemblance to various contemporary photos of "GLORY of the SEAS" is all the proof we need to validate that the lines our combined group arrived at are accurate. I am thrilled to observe you and Vlad's inspiring progress.
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Rob, I deeply appreciate your well wishes. As I painstakingly recreate my understanding of Glory's true lines, I will share them here first. I intend to include references to every single piece of photographic evidence which supports the lines drawn. Hopefully, it should be such a compelling body of documentary evidence that it will lead Mike and Ron to reevaluate Glory's true appearance.
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guys, I am so frustrated by this stupid situation. I'm determined to finally get Glory's lines right but I'm still battling post op pain to recover and can't seem to concentrate on drawing. So maddening. Two days ago, I was so frustrated with my lack of progress that I went "cold turkey" and quit taking pain meds. Dubious decision for sure with expected results that I hurt like a son of a bitch but I feel like if I can just get beyond this grueling crucible my return to normalcy will accelerate. Then you will once again see my contributions of how Donald McKay's last, longest lived beautiful Clipper Ship "GLORY of the SEAS" (NOT an 1830s Packet Ship) truly appeared.
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Rob, Vladimir, honestly how can anyone see the two clear pictures of the lovely, sleek prow of "GLORY of the SEAS" and come up with these proposed lines??? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I know Ron's a highly accomplished artisan, as witness by his gorgeous half Hull of "Donald McKay" but he just still seems to be so far of the mark for poor Glory!
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Rob, while I'm relieved that Ron is reworking the Stern, quite frankly I as usual have a huge problem with his interpretation of Glory's Bow. My God, he actually has her prow bulging slightly forward below the waterline! What's up with that??? His Naval Hoods don't match and that should easily be fixed by looking at the lovely close up which clearly shows both the hoods and her Cutwater. Then there's her 7' sheer, which I see nowhere in his lines. I do not in anyway want this to turn into a p--sing match but his latest effort still is so far off from where we've arrived at. However I strongly feel Mike needs to know the truth. Especially if he plans on publishing these in his latest book. Honesty to me is always the best approach but how do you gracefully tell an experienced shipwright that his lines totally suck, again???
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Rob, I was trying to envision you somehow using steel wool or brillo pads, which obviously made no sense. Thanks for clarifying it.
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Rob, I'm unfamiliar with the wool stem process for the transom. Is that a typo? I know about steam bending but not the procedure you described. Can you please enlighten me?
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Vladimir, my sensitive wife Peggy is constantly on me for my dry humor. She's right of course. More often than not, others don't realize I'm merely joking. It's tough to tone it down because I'm having harmless fun when I do it and can't seem to accept that people hear it differently. Of course I wasn't serious about you and Rob being in any kind of a modeling race, that would just be plain silly. Besides which, as I've mentioned more than once, I personally have never seen a modeler produce such impressive results in such short time. In my own dumb way I was attempting to encourage you in your own endeavours as you build what I'm sure will be a fine model of "GLORY of the SEAS."
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Vladimir my friend, after seeing how the actual "Cutty Sark" Museum, Greenwich, England has requested the honor of placing your massive 1:24th Clipper "Cutty Sark" for public display, I have no doubt you will give Rob quite a "run for the money!" Just remember too, especially in modeling at this fine level of meticulous accuracy, entirely scratch building from self developed ship's lines, sometimes slow & steady wins the race too. .
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gak1965 I'm friends with Vladimir & just stumbled on your impressive build. I hope you don't mind my sticking my 2c in but I might have some fascinating historical information to enlighten you about the amazing accomplishment of the Clipper "Flying Fish" you're currently building. Being a Scottish Immigrant from Nova Scotia, Donald McKay was very conservative and remarkably consistent in his paint schemes for his Clipper Ships to the point of being boring. Non other than Duncsn MacLean, the Boston Daily News publicist even made a jocular observation that all of McKay's Clippers, like Clergy came in Black. There are others that were painted quite differently. For instance the fast Clipper "Galatea" which had a distinctive full running thoroughbred painted on her fore topsail, was painted deep Sea Bronze. Of course it's your vessel, you can paint her as you choose but I thought you might appreciate knowing something about the Historic nature of this particular McKay Extreme Clipper. I've attached a gorgeous painting done by the famous contemporary artist James Buttersworth commissioned by the Ship's owners to celebrate this McKay vessel's triumphant win in the "Great Deep Sea Derby". The painting confirms that, like "GLORY of the SEAS" where we actually have photographic proof, the large rear cabin does indeed overhang about 3' from the rear poop deck. The painting also verifies that the rear of the cabin is flat, not curved. Another fascinating detail is her sea bronze & gold trimmed flying fish figurehead. It is most likely smaller than the kit supplied version. If you observe closely, you can see it is apparently embossed on the vessel's Cutwater which mounts over the stem. The beautiful model kit much like "Flying Cloud" seems to include only the Stem not the Cutwater which mounts over it. Since these Clippers were built to take on the heavy seas of Cape Horn, Donald McKay made the Bow extremely rugged. This arrangement makes for a much more stable and graceful Bow than the rather awkward way the figurehead is sort of tacked on with nothing to support it. https://www.vallejogallery.com/item_mobile.php?page=item_page&id=487#lg=1&slide=4
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Rob, this is indeed Donald McKay's Clipper "GLORY of the SEAS" shaping up in all her glory. To see his last Clipper come to life in three dimensional miniature like this is so thrilling to observe, especially after spending the last year viewing tantalizing images of her. Two dimensional photos just don't do her Justice. I've selected two of my favorites of the many pics you've shared. Most impressive is the top one where you can see the graceful transition from sharp Clipper Bow to full bodied Merchantman. The bottom image has been flipped in order to better appreciate the loveliness of her form. My one request, I know it's purely a matter of taste, is that you reconsider leaving the waterways light blue. I personally appreciate the contrast with pearl and white trim, besides which it seems to have been a preferential hallmark of practically all of Donald McKay's Clipper Ships
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Vladimir, CONGRATULATIONS!!! on the Cutty Sark Museum request to display your impressive, large scale model. While you no longer possess this magnificent creation, I encourage you to contact whoever holds it to see if they might like to honor the Museum's request. Knowing how most collectors feel, it's almost a sure bet they too would appreciate the opportunity to see their miniature in display at the home of the actual vessel herself. If nothing else, besides raising monetary value for any potential future resale, bragging rights alone would also be a positive motivator. If you haven't informed the new owner, I strongly encourage you to do so. They might be thrilled and thank you for letting them know. Good luck!
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Rob, recovery progress is continuing to be the toughest of my life but I am slowly, determinedly improving. I also want to admit Rob that I am truly humbled by your generous compliment. I had no idea that you held my viewpoint with such high regard. Meanwhile, I personally continue to be in awe of your rapid, yet beautifully accurate modeling skills. Such careful attention to small details like the multiple moldings of Glory will result in what I am now convinced will be the most impressively accurate miniature of "GLORY of the SEAS" ever produced so far. Lacking anywheres near the modeling skills of either you or Vladimir, I want to only act as a guide to assist you both in realizing your objectives to achieve the most accurate reproductions possible. It has been the thrill of a lifetime to collaborate with other fans of Donald McKay's incredibly beautiful Clipper Ships, especially being able to communicate with one of my favorite Maritime authors as well. So It's damnably frustrating to be sidelined by my slow recovery, especially since I feel an even greater sense of serious urgency to redo accurate lines of "GLORY of the SEAS" to finally do her true justice. After doggedly pursuing real genuine faithful reinterpretation of Donald McKay's last glorious Clipper Ship for just over twelve and a half years now, I refuse to accept seeing another set of unfortunately crappy lines be published that do McKay's brilliance such an injustice. What we have learned from over a year's worth of intense study and exhaustive evaluation of practically every inch of McKay's longest lived merchant vessel has been so encouraging and enlightening. Our mutual approach has consistently relied on precise, scientific, measured investigation of every incredibly clear image so generously shared by author Michael Mjelde. I personally am firmly convinced that what Donald McKay accomplished in his final effort was the culmination of his decades of single minded pursuit of excellence in creating a very swift merchant vessel with an extremely sharp Clipper Ship entrance and exit coupled with an enormous capacity for storage as well. Remember this amazingly durable Clipper was the very last vessel to accomplish the arduous Cape Horn journey from New York to San Francisco in under 100 days (1873-74 in 96 days - Pacific Marine Review). She also still holds the record for sailing from San Francisco, California to Sydney, Australia in 35 days, a feat accomplished despite poor vessel condition, as the Ship herself was crank due to insufficient ballast. With a strong beam wind Glory was practically on her beam ends. As a result the crew had to send down her stunsail booms as well as royal yards. Yet despite such poor vessel condition, she sailed with very favorable winds and weather (Pacific Marine Review). Imagine what she might have accomplished if she had been in proper trim. Now it's time to pull all that intense detailed research we have done together into one coherent whole and produce a recognizable blueprint of what she truly looked like.
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Rob, your progress is so exciting to watch. "GLORY of the SEAS" is now definitely looking like the Clipper Ship I see in the many impressive images Mike has shared with us. I'm glad you revised the scrollwork for her Cutwater and Naval Hoods. This image here is my favorite one of your latest ones. The form is simply beautiful. Great work!
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Ron Haug's proposed new line impressions for Donald McKay's Clipper Ship "GLORY of the SEAS" as sent to Rob and I a few days ago. Ron told Mike that in this design, he believes that somehow McKay has "drifted back to his old Packet Ship days of the 1830s even with the stem" with this design. Honestly, I'm personally very sad to say "here we go again." My impressions of Shipwright Ron Haug's lines are that he either never saw the incredibly detailed photos Michael Mjelde's shared with us or he doesn't see the same svelte vessel we see. Our past year's collaborative effort has led me to hope for so much more than... this. While this group has been concentrating on reconstructing Glory's true form for about a year, my own journey of discovering Donald McKay's last Clipper Ship has now been just over a dozen. I don't know how Mike will react but as I've always consistently said, my first loyalty is to the memory of Donald McKay and his lovely vessel. Mr McKay deserves better.....
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1869 Donald McKay Clipper "GLORY of the SEAS" 2,102 tons Specifications Length of Keel: 240'2" Line of the wales between perpendiculars: 250' Overall length, Knightheads to taffrails: 265' Breadth of beam: 44' Depth of hold: 28'6" Height between decks: 8'2" Deadrise at half floor: 8 1/2" Overall sheer: 7' As I race to incorporate all the particular specifics Rob, I and others of our dedicated group have confirmed, these are the historic, published specifics I will be relying on. Besides length of keel, sourced from Glory's official registry admeasurement, all other measurements are from Duncan MacLean's 1869 published description of the vessel in the Boston Daily Atlas.
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