BANYAN

Love them boats, some really nice detail with that PE added.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Love them boats, some really nice detail with that PE added.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Carl, it is a relatively simple concept - if you know you will be involved in a battle you fit the spur before sailing; otherwise it could stay off/inboard to improve ship-handling?  No need to run to a nearby shore as you suggest, as they would know beforehand if there was likelihood of battle imminent.  One-on-one battles, or to 'chase' another ship, would really only be for anti-piracy patrols or the like, and probably would result in the spur being fitted throughout the patrol.
 
This is purely conjecture only.  There may be some evidence to veto or support such a concept?  Purely from the 'practical point of view'  man-handling such a large (and heavy) chunk of iron-clad timber at those heights would not have been easy on a beach but may have been possible while alongside in their 'port'? 
 
Anything mentioned in the information you have Steven?
 
cheers
 
Pat

Love them boats, some really nice detail with that PE added.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Love them boats, some really nice detail with that PE added.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Dick, I was in fact making my spur considerably shorter, then was brought up short (sorry!) by the following from Age of the Dromon (p203):
 
"A contract for the sale of two spurs made of oak (robor), each 10.42 metres long and 0.25 metres wide survives from Genoa in 1267."
 
To me, a written contract is much more reliable information than mediaeval pictures, which unfortunately often used a lot of artistic licence. Western galleys of the 13th century were about a third larger than Byzantine dromons and Prof Pryor has evidently used the relative proportions of the two kinds of vessel to reduce the spur in his dromon reconstruction from over 10 metres to only seven. I really feel I can't go any smaller than that, ithyphallic though it may seem (my spur's bigger than yours!).
 
Looking at the pictures in my posts of August 3 and 4 above, I believe (in those pictures where it's shown at all) the support for the spur seems to be either a heavy cable (shown as two ropes twisted together) or, in other pictures, gammoning such as used on later bowsprits. Do you have any pictures showing a chain? Prof Pryor mentions it as a possibility, but I haven't seen any pictures which look enough like chains for me to think so.
 
Pat, there's no mention of the spur being able to be removed at a moment's notice - or otherwise. Personally, I believe that once installed they would be permanent, if only because surprise attacks did occur - in fact if I recall correctly, the Byzantines lost at least one fleet that way.
 
But there's so little information about such things; All I know of is the quote above and the following two passages.
 
" . . . in the inventory for the Cretan expedition of 949, amongst the equipment to be supplied by the Department of the Vestiarion basilikon [Imperial Household] for 20 dromons, was specified: “20 peronia for the kataprosopa together with their katakorakes”  . . .
 
Peronion (pl. peronia) was a diminutive of, or a derivative synonym for, perone, which could mean a pin, or brooch, or buckle. It had many other senses in mechanical engineering, and was derived from peronao, “pierce” or “transfix”. Since only one of these peronia was to be supplied for each dromon, they must therefore have been major pieces of equipment and not pins, or bolts, or buckles.
 
However, peronion in the sense of something that pierces has the right sense for a spur and speronus, one of the two medieval Latin words for the spur, was almost certainly derived from it. Surely peronia were the dromons’ spurs.
 
The specification was that there should be 20 peronia, “for the kataprosopa, together with their katakorakes”. Prosopon had the sense of the front, facade, or face of anything, in particular of a ship, and one of the senses of korax was anything hooked for grappling or holding something. Reading the “kata” prefixes simply in their strengthening sense, we suggest that the real meaning of this specification was: “Twenty spurs for the faces [of the bows], together with their couplings”. Peronion was probably the Byzantine word for the spur and katakorax that for the coupling to the head of the stempost. (Age of The Dromon p207):
 
Imagine 900 years from now trying to work out what a sheet, a tack and a brace were, based only on a list of equipment supplied to a fleet in the 18th century - that's how difficult the task is.
 
Also from Age of The Dromon (p203)
"In late antiquity and the Middle Ages spurs were not built as integral parts of the hull, as they were in the Renaissance. Contractsfor the construction of galleys for Charles I of Anjou, King of Sicily, specified neither the provision of spurs nor their dimensions, indicating that the contractors did not have to build them into the galleys."
 
And that's all the information we have, and we should probably be grateful even to have that. There's so little data that we are forced to speculate and fill in the gaps with educated guesses. The reason I keep going on about Age of the Dromon is that it has collected in one place all the information available on dromons up to the 2006 date of publication, and I believe the reconstruction in the book is as close as we're likely to get, qualified only by the Yenikapi finds and possible future finds in the Black Sea.
 
Steven
 

When forming brass - or silver, for that matter - one cannot anneal too often. If you don't, the metal will tear. Beautifully done, Michael. That is a tough shape to achieve.

The thing that I do like about this scale is the many options for experimenting with processes. Today I made a small form for making the dorade vents and used some .003" brass shim stock to see how easy the shape would be to replicate. here are the results.
The first annealing

 
second annealing
 

 
After 4 more annealing s
 

 
it was looking promising
 

 
A bit more trimming with some small scissors and a dab of paints
 

 

 
So now I know that they are possible I think some heavier shim-stock say 006 or 008 might be better then some proper patina.
 
Michael

Firstly a Huge Thank You for all the likes and comments  and taking my build over the  20.000  views mark - Amazing.🤩
 
Boat number two  -  in the shape of the 45ft Fast motor launch,  this started off with the kit hull, and also the part deck from the kit,  but the kit deck part needed cannibalizing just leaving the front lower cabin section, this was cut away and shaped then glued to the pe deck part,  next I had to make up three pe cabin sections and glue them on the pe deck.
 
Here are a few pics  also showing the size comparison with the Admirals Barge.
 
OC.

Thanks Pat.
I needed some 1 1/2" mahogany so cut some a tad over thickness then thickness planed it down with a simple jig and a block plane.
by using some 3/16  x 1/8th evergreen strip and placing them in the corners of the jig i can plane either or thickness by flipping them up or flat.
 

 

 

 
I then cut the strips to width with the table saw.
 
Next was to lay out the wood over the template to mark the angles and decide on the joints, tenons seemed reasonable.
 

 
They were formed with the usual assortment of saws and chisels.
 

 

 
And a test to get a feel for what the new companionway will look like.
 
Michael
 
 
 

I have looked at my pics of dromon and dromon-like vessels from contemporary iconography and have the following comments:
Not all show a spur. ? is spur removable?
The spur is horizontal or slightly up-angled
The spur extends slightly beyond the tip of the bow. Sorry, Steven, I think your spur is much too ithyphallic.
A stout rope or chain extends from stem to spur.
can be beached stern first or stem first. But probably mostly stern first.
A forecastle (xylokastron) is not always shown.
The siphon for greek fire (katakorax) may have been a removable feature
There were  variants e.g. the chelandion (possibly a horse transport). Much Bigger. The galea was smaller and faster with only one rowing deck.
Anchors not shown (but several would be shipped).
The Muslims had similar dromon like vessels with differing names: dermin for dromon and shalandi for chelandion
This gives a lot of latitude for choice.
Nonetheless this is a fascinating topic which has been poorly addressed by the shipmodeller in the past with many fanciful reconstructions but this model promises to be as close as you can get with present knowledge. Well done Steven.
Dick
 
 
 

Ciao e grazie a tutti, altre foto.
Hello and thanks to everyone too kind, more photos.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Un Saluto
 

More work  - tonight  I finished the boat deck railings by fitting the section above the hanger/roller doors, then I made some tarps again from thin paper cut into a 4.5mm strip, the cut to the lengths to fit the railings.
 
Here are a few more pics -
 
OC.

Hi all,   another good day on the bench (table)  I continued with the lower (crane) level railings, including two odd shape sections between the two pom pom shrouds,  after gluing and painting mid grey  - I tipped the top rails with some black.
 
I took a few more pics showing the progress.
 
OC.

A great find for you and a very interesting maritime connection for your family.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Nice work Greg, some very nice weathering effects you are showing - very realistic.
 
cheers
 
Pat

It seems we were responding at the same time Steven.  your response to the anchor issue puts some of my thoughts to rest though.  An iron anchor would still have had sufficient weight to assist, but it seems you have evidence these were stowed forward and the ships were beached stern first.
 
Any discussion by the academics/researchers on whether the spur interfered with the anchor cable?  Another thought, how easy/difficult was it to mount the spur.  To assist ship handling etc, is it possible the spur was carried inboard and only fitted (while beached or the like) as required?
 
An interesting discussion indeed.
 
cheers
 
Pat

It seems we were responding at the same time Steven.  your response to the anchor issue puts some of my thoughts to rest though.  An iron anchor would still have had sufficient weight to assist, but it seems you have evidence these were stowed forward and the ships were beached stern first.
 
Any discussion by the academics/researchers on whether the spur interfered with the anchor cable?  Another thought, how easy/difficult was it to mount the spur.  To assist ship handling etc, is it possible the spur was carried inboard and only fitted (while beached or the like) as required?
 
An interesting discussion indeed.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Looks very good Michael; great idea to prototype in card.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Had a nice visit with Jeff (Chasseur) last evening when he stopped by to see the Albertic.
More reworking of the companionway. I am reworking the area that opens up to the hull. The opportunity to rework the position of the skylight which was a bit too close to the mast will be able to be sorted as well. I am going to widen the companionway to scale 36" (4.5"actual) so that it aligns with the skylight similar to the one on the Polly Agatha. So just to save mahogany I made a prototype out of some cardstock.

 

 
I will make a new deck piece by laminating the deck fir planks over the 1/8th aircraft ply sheet once it is properly curved and the cut outs for the companionway and skylights are done.
I actually spent a good part of the day working on upgrading the drawing that I first made when this project began way back in 2012. so a lot of measuring and fixing the drawing which was rudimentary at best.
 
Michael
 
 

More progress today  -  I cut away the pom pom ammo cupboards and various other boxes, these were plasttic cut parts so they needed to be sanded to clean then up and some needed sink marks removing,   next job was to fit two pe  doors on each pom pom cupboard, then they were painted mid grey,  same procedure with the other boxes - these were scattered around the boat deck.
 
Then it was railings time  - the boat deck has three sections of railings and one small area of tarp,   I used the pontos diagrams to aid where the railings go and copied them on to some paper,   first I cut the two rear sections these went on quite easily,  then I had to measure and shape the area that goes around the cranes, this was a bit fiddly due to the delicate nature of the pe, but I managed to sit them in a smear of pva,   then when set I applied a small smear of ca to set them fully.
To finnish off the railings at this level  I painted them in mid grey,   next off will be the tarp in the small mid section between the two pom pom shrouds.
 
I also stacked up four carly floats and painted them the same as before, these were placed on the crane deck.
 
Here are a few pics.
 
OC.

Bit hard anchoring forward with the bows beached Carl   If you want to stop the waves pushing the stern of a 'beached' boat around and beaching sideways, then the idea is to use a stern (kedge) anchor to keep her bows on the beach and stern to the sea.  The cable of a forward anchor would probably also foul on the spur?
 
Not much point anchoring these types of vessels out in a bay to overnight I would think (unless expecting a night action)?   Back in those days, I think, they tended to stay near the coast, unless foraying from their base.  More often than not they probably camped on a beach overnight.  A kedge anchor would then be very useful, even if made of stone; the bows were probably made fast to the beach/coast with some type of 'sand/ground' anchor?  The beauty of a double ended vessel is that it would lay to anchor from aft just as well as from forward? Anything in your research about this Steven?  
 
Food for more thought anyway 
 
Sorry to have hijacked your build log Steven.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Great work on the boats Danny, they look great.  Could you fix the tiller by cutting off the squared extension and replace with some brass wire/rod of suitable scale?
 
cheers
 
Pat

Great work on the boats Danny, they look great.  Could you fix the tiller by cutting off the squared extension and replace with some brass wire/rod of suitable scale?
 
cheers
 
Pat

Nice recovery OC; looking good!
 
cheers
 
Pat