Ferrus Manus
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Representations are just that- representations. The representations of the Lomellina ship I have seen have all been wildly inaccurate. I was not claiming swivel guns were found. Neither article I read mentioned swivel guns. I was coming at it from a perspective of assuming the carrack was used as a warship (see the gunports) and might have had the gunwale built to accommodate anti-personnel pieces. I am aware that a Tumblr post (as well as any news report) is likely to be wrong in many significant ways. It is likely that both are true- the ship likely had her own armament, and was carrying large-wheeled land guns for use in the latter stages of the Italian Wars. -
Remains of 500 year-old shipwreck: Dated 2019
Ferrus Manus replied to Allegheny's topic in Nautical/Naval History
Do we know what type of ship it is? It looks to me like it could be some kind of cross between a carrack and a cog. -
I say she needs a bonaventure. This article mentions a total length of 46.12 meters, or 151.31 feet. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10572414.2023.2186748#d1e587 The Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai was 38 meters, or 124.67 feet. The Mary Rose (or what we know of her length) as per World History Encyclopedia, was 38 meters or 105 feet. These are two vessels smaller than Lomellina, both with bonaventures.
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I think the gunwale should be made as if it was actually of intended use, as the Lomellina was discovered with guns. I am not aware as to the details of where those guns would have been situated, or if swivel guns were found. I based the Elisabetta's two guns on those found with the Lomellina wreck. That would mean a gunwale (with no clinker planking extending inwards, as is seen on some other carracks) that reaches about upper chest height, assuming the swivel pieces are positioned directly on the gunwale. The Beat to Quarters Tumblr article mentions 15 wrought iron composite guns found on board the ship as cargo. The article does not mention Lomellina being armed herself, but she had gunports. I don't know if you should trust this article though, because it mentions the Lomellina being a cross between a galley and a carrack. https://ltwilliammowett.tumblr.com/post/665321756962308096/the-lomellina-wreck This article, which is more reputable, mentions ten iron guns and two bronze, but no swivel pieces. https://shiplib.org/index.php/shipwrecks/mediterranean-shipwrecks-2/western-mediterranean/lomelina-1615/
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Fair warning, the forecastle of the museum model looks pretty inaccurate to me. I sure hope yours ends up looking like a carrack instead of mostly a galleon. Reconstructions of the Mary Rose also fall into the same pit.
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Yep! I modeled it after the first image of the original Lomellina, at least partially. The font on the stand is Bembo, a typeface developed for Aldus Manutius in 1495.
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I am very much looking forward to seeing you do this build as well. Perhaps the Lomellina could use the Elisabetta as a companion.
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I like the look of it as well! If you were to go for an accurate look, the ship would need to be painted in its entirety. You should look for primary sources as well as the replica if you intend to do this. As for the rigging, I tend to rig square-rigged vessels starting from the centerline and moving outward. There are plenty of rigging diagrams on MSW for the Bounty. Another source I have that might be helpful to you is "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships" by C. Nepean Longridge, a book explaining the construction of 18th century British square-rigged naval ships.
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Another issue: the painting I have largely based my decisions off of does not depict the ship with swivel guns, and neither do the diagrams in the Landstrom book. For this reason, I will instead be covering the railings with waistcloth. This should in theory make the railings less offensive to look at. The waistcloth will be a simple strip of red-painted silkspan, nothing fancy.
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Sorry for the delay in posting a reply. This is the current progress on the foresail, over the past week: I got the sheet belayed, the two pairs of martnets and buntlines in and belayed, and the reef tackle done. Up next is the clew line (and the main top toggles as a whole), the parrel lines/tackles, and a bunch of rope coils.
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I have gotten the fore lift mostly rigged, the lower lines all belayed, the vangs belayed, and the sheet started.
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I have stained all lengths of line for the foresail. The problem is with the medium-diameter lengths of line. Because of how they were wrapped around a flat spool, they will not be willing to obey a catenary curve on their own. (A catenary curve is the natural effect of gravity on a slack line.) For that reason, I have chosen to inundate them in white glue and apply tension to get the kinks out. I have seen multiple other modelers do this to great success. Making progress: All lengths of medium line will have this done. In fact, I might just do this with large lengths of this line off-ship before even cutting them to size. This is because I have an issue with this line when taut as well. Taut lines of this rope tend to want to twist when tension is applied, tangling tackles, etc. If the strands of rope are held together with white glue, this might not happen. The medium-thickness tan line will be used for the three continuous lines on the lower part of the yard, the lift halyards, and the standing ends of the braces and vangs.
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White glue is easily controllable with a toothpick and stays wet for longer, which is why I will begin using it for high-risk areas, like on a sail. I end up having issues with super glue stains on at least one sail of almost every model I have made using silkspan sails. These are visible both in photos and in real life.
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I got the reef points done today. This involved cutting two-inch lengths of rope, putting super glue in the middle, and folding them over. Then, the rope lengths (which looked like a very narrow "v" at this point) were slid into the holes I had put into the silkspan and glued in place using white glue. This is the result: I am just now discovering the value of backlighting sails for photos. One thing I have always hated about my small-diameter tan rigging thread is its tendency to blend in with the color of a sail, which prevents it from being easily visible from a distance. So, what I did to remedy that was paint the lines in a 50/50 tan/brown paint mixture, highly diluted. This was done along the lines of @kirill4's advice and the example of his Galleon. This will likely be what I do from here on out with running lines, on all subsequent models. What I will also likely get done tonight is putting the rest of the holes in the sail for rigging. I might also do some of the toggles on the clew and top.
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I will likely rig the main lift at least partially in order to make the space to belay the fore lift before we get to that point.
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Yesterday and today, I did some work on the foresail. I drew the lines in the sail on silkspan, cut the sail out, and stained it. I then bent it to the yard. What I would like to achieve either today or tomorrow is getting the reef points in. The next thing will be to do the fore lift, and then the rigging for the yard. Afterwards, I will rig the sheet line. My plan at that point is to brush highly diluted white glue onto the sail and leave it in front of a desk fan for a couple hours. Then, it's on to the two sets of crow's feet and the brails. This will involve application of either white glue or super glue, as all these lines are slack.
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The latest bout of modeling for these last few days has been the painting and installation of the cleats and kevels. I have also put in all but a couple of the eyebolts. Some of them have loops to accept the toggles of the braces. I also developed a solution for some of the woes Michael D. had with the main lift. The last picture shows a small hole below the port side main lift sheaves. This is replicated on the starboard side. These holes will accept eyebolts on which the standing ends of the main lift halyards are tied.
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The hook goes on the lower block that's attached to the eyebolt. Your model inspires me to get my hands on another medieval lateener kit and make it as accurate as possible. By the way, how do you turn off autocorrect on MSW?
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What I'm saying is that you could do it either way. You could either have a hooked block and an eyebolt on each side, or two running ends tied to a rail like I have on my caravel. Here's a good view of the first option: This would belay to a cleat or the rail itself instead of a pin. The issue of belaying points is a lot more precise and critical on a lateener than on a square-rigger. I would keep all belaying points inside the profile of the shrouds if possible. I don't even start making up rigging elements until I know exactly where everything belays and on what. I could tell you where every single rigging line on the Reale belays only because I have paced around the ship for hours at a time determining that. While you're at it with replacing a good chunk of the rigging on your model, you might want to go back and make a new fore yard and sail. I saw you talk about how you wished you hadn't made the fore and main yards and sails the same size, as the foremast is significantly larger than the main. I think you wouldn't regret doing any of this as it would make your model look significantly more accurate to contemporary sources. I have had to rip out sails more times that I would like to admit.
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I made the 30 cleats that this model will need. There might be a few extras by the time I'm done. The main braces and sheet will belay to kevels, as well as both fore and main lifts. That means 8 kevels, which I have not made up yet. Other than that, not much to report. I hope they look halfway decent when I paint them. I guess they'll be covered in rope anyway.
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Also, the loosened shrouds on the lee side of the masts are an accurate detail I have almost never seen correctly depicted in lateeners before. This makes me want to do another caravel kit at some point.
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You should simplify the rig. Only one sheet would make tacking the yard simpler, and because the yard swings in front of the mast on a medieval lateener, all lines must be swung around the mast and shrouds. Check out how I rigged my Portuguese caravel. You should have a hook on the one sheet block and an eyebolt and cleat setup on both sides, but only one will be used at a time. The idea of using multiple sheets for a fore-and-aft sail originates with the invention of staysails almost 500 years later. I highly doubt the use of double sheets ever happened on lateeners especially in this era. Moreover, I doubt the use of vangs would make much of a difference, even though I used them on my caravel. The vangs would not be as effective at positioning the yard as the braces/tacking tackle would be. If vangs were used, the blocks would not be positioned right up against the yard. There would be a section of standing line between the blocks and the yard to allow them room to move. Also, vangs would make more sense further forward on the yard, as that gives them the ability to tack the yard to a greater angle. To make a long story short, I would redo most of the rigging of each sail aft of each mast. The lifts and parrels look perfect and the fore rigging makes sense.
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The modelling I have done in the past few days includes making up the yards (including their lashings) and making and installing the ship's ladders. Next up is the construction and mounting of about 30 cleats, plus a few kevels, and a bunch of eyebolts.
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