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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Wood filler recommendations   
    No kidding! Don'tcha just hate waking up in a cold sweat dreaming about that "rare, but life-threatening infection in the skin of the perineum?"  
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in How do I figure out how much wood plank I need?   
    Welcome to MSW Doug,
     
    Are you speaking of European boxwood or castello boxwood, which is a wonderful wood with which to work? Take Bob's post seriously.  If you're going to be painting the hull, consider something like poplar or basswood.  I predominantly use castello boxwood for period ships that are not painted, but for schooners and such that will be painted, it is not necessary to go to the expense if you don't want to.  
     
    As to figuring the amount of lumber, look at the amount of space from keel to the top of the futtocks at midships.   Multiply times the length, then double it to cover port and starboard.  Add another 20% for mistakes and waste if buying planks. In the long run  I agree with Bob in that it is better to buy billets of timber and cutting it to size.  The waste in sawdust is high but it is the same for anyone supplying finished planking so you will be paying for the wood plus the labor that goes into it.   It only takes a few models to get your money back on a good saw and thickness sander with the savings.  If you are not sure, calculate what you need then price billets versus pre-cut planking.   You can then figure the return on investment on the equipment.    Boxwood, be it European or castello, is getting more difficult to find.  When my stock runs out may be looking at Alaskan cedar billets as well.    BTW, Castello is not really a true boxwood but it really is super to work with.
     
    Allan
     
     
  3. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from GrandpaPhil in How do I figure out how much wood plank I need?   
    Hey, welcome to the forum! Before anybody else does, let me suggest you go to the "new members" section and "introduce yourself," if you haven't already. 
     
    I had some time on my hands and figured I'd respond to your question by sharing some thoughts on making the transition from model kit assembly to model building from scratch. Each approach has it's advantages and amazing work is done by many in both instances. it seems to be a natural progression, however, that folks begin with kits, then start supplementing their kit builds with aftermarket parts, then begin "kit bashing," and finally make the quantum leap to scratch building or what is known in the trade as "The Dark Side." The biggest difference between kit building and scratch building, as you've now discovered, whether you realize it or not, is that when scratch-building, the modeler must 'front load" his work with all the plans required, including translating plans for full-sized construction to plans for scale model construction, compiling materials lists, as you've encountered here, and so on. I'd guess the scratch builder puts as much time into historical research, drafting, tool acquisition, and shop management, as goes into the actual building process itself. If one doesn't have a taste for these tasks, they will probably enjoy greater satisfaction staying with with kit building.
     
    Since you mention planking with boxwood, I presume you are contemplating finishing the hull bright and showing all the plank seams. First off, you may want to reconsider using boxwood for planking after you price the stuff. There is a lot of waste involved in planking, although the offcuts will be useful for other purposes of the build. Boxwood can be stiff and difficult to bend, as well. Clear, fine grained Alaskan Yellow Cedar comes close in appearance and is easier to work with and considerably less expensive. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/AnOverviewOfWoodProperties.pdf)
     
    The method of planking is the first consideration. Do you plan to edge-set a lot of your planks as in the method described by master-modeler Chuck Passaro of this forum (and owner of Syren Shipmodel Company) or more traditional spiled plank? See: https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/) Chuck's method is much more economical in terms of wood requirements, but may not be suitable for all planks in a wineglass-sectioned hull like a J Boat.  A hull with a lot of "tuck" may also require planking stock of varying thicknesses to accommodate "backing out" and "rounding off" to achieve the sharp frame curves aft. (This process involves carving a convex or concave face on the plank so it will lay fair against the faying surface of a sharply curved frame and fairly follow the outboard curve.) I suggest you read up on planking technique to learn to visualize plank shapes and understand how to spile plank to develop the proper plank shapes necessary. (See:https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/LiningOffYourHullPlankingTutorialAndFan.pdf) Some planks must be cut from substantially wide stock to accommodate the plank's curved shape. The scale of the model will dictate the plank lengths and widths. If you plan to show the plank seams as is the case with bright-finished hulls, you will need more plank to replicate full-size planking at scale. if you are simply "planking" to attain the shape of the hull and then paint it, you'll have more latitude in "skinning" the hull. For these reasons, the answer to the question of how much planking stock you may need is, "It depends." Not a real helpful answer, I know. 
     
    You're talking about a good-sized model of 48". I'm guessing the scale is somewhere around 1:36 (1 inch equals about 3 feet.) If you put a rig on the model, it will stand about seven feet tall. Are you talking about a sailing model or a display model? At a scale that large, your build will probably require planking in the same manner as full-size practice. You will have to "line off" your planking and spile the planks to shape no matter how you cut it. You might as well get out your drawing board and do your spiling on paper to determine your maximum planking widths and scale lengths. This will provide you with a pretty good idea of the amount and size of planking stock you'll require to plank the hull. I'd add 25 to 50% additional to the planked area of the hull for off-cut waste and "goofs." With this sort of build, you will be better off milling your stock on an "as needed" basis than trying to source expensive pre-milled stock from the various vendors. 
     
    As a practical matter, particularly for a build the size you contemplate, I'd think you'd be well-advised to invest in the Byrnes Model Tools "trifecta, their  table saw, thickness planer, and disk sander, (http://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/index5.html), a decent scroll saw at the least, if not additionally a "14 bandsaw or a 10" table saw, and think in terms of buying your wood in fair sized billets and milling it yourself. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/MillingScaleLumber.pdf) These tools aren't inexpensive but they hold their value pretty well and can always be sold if you lose interest in the hobby and the savings you will realize milling your own stock will substantially defray their purchase cost. There are those, and more power to them, who will say that the great Navy Board Models in museums were built with hand tools (which isn't entirely true) and all you need is a coping saw and an x-acto knife and you're good to go. It is true some remarkable models have been built with remarkably primitive tools, but the reality is that the level of accuracy modelers aspire to today, and the time it takes to scratch-build a model, benefit greatly from a limited number of specialized power tools which can eliminate a lot of the tedium and drudgery which otherwise can go with the territory. (See: https://thenrg.org/articles/power-tools)
     
    Building an "as built" large scale model from scratch can be a daunting task, but, like any project, easy enough if it's broken into discrete steps and care is taken to do the best work possible on each step. It should be said, though, that unlike running shoes, advising a beginning modeler to "Just do it!" is more often a recipe for disappointment. A large scale J Boat can be a beautiful thing. They have remarkably graceful hulls. (Their tall rigs will often chase everybody out of the room when they're finished, though. )  I'd encourage you to begin and build upon what you've learned from your first model, but do it right and avoid the pitfalls that can take all the fun out of the enterprise in short order if you don't plan each process carefully in advance and...
     

  4. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from barkeater in How do I figure out how much wood plank I need?   
    Hey, welcome to the forum! Before anybody else does, let me suggest you go to the "new members" section and "introduce yourself," if you haven't already. 
     
    I had some time on my hands and figured I'd respond to your question by sharing some thoughts on making the transition from model kit assembly to model building from scratch. Each approach has it's advantages and amazing work is done by many in both instances. it seems to be a natural progression, however, that folks begin with kits, then start supplementing their kit builds with aftermarket parts, then begin "kit bashing," and finally make the quantum leap to scratch building or what is known in the trade as "The Dark Side." The biggest difference between kit building and scratch building, as you've now discovered, whether you realize it or not, is that when scratch-building, the modeler must 'front load" his work with all the plans required, including translating plans for full-sized construction to plans for scale model construction, compiling materials lists, as you've encountered here, and so on. I'd guess the scratch builder puts as much time into historical research, drafting, tool acquisition, and shop management, as goes into the actual building process itself. If one doesn't have a taste for these tasks, they will probably enjoy greater satisfaction staying with with kit building.
     
    Since you mention planking with boxwood, I presume you are contemplating finishing the hull bright and showing all the plank seams. First off, you may want to reconsider using boxwood for planking after you price the stuff. There is a lot of waste involved in planking, although the offcuts will be useful for other purposes of the build. Boxwood can be stiff and difficult to bend, as well. Clear, fine grained Alaskan Yellow Cedar comes close in appearance and is easier to work with and considerably less expensive. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/AnOverviewOfWoodProperties.pdf)
     
    The method of planking is the first consideration. Do you plan to edge-set a lot of your planks as in the method described by master-modeler Chuck Passaro of this forum (and owner of Syren Shipmodel Company) or more traditional spiled plank? See: https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/) Chuck's method is much more economical in terms of wood requirements, but may not be suitable for all planks in a wineglass-sectioned hull like a J Boat.  A hull with a lot of "tuck" may also require planking stock of varying thicknesses to accommodate "backing out" and "rounding off" to achieve the sharp frame curves aft. (This process involves carving a convex or concave face on the plank so it will lay fair against the faying surface of a sharply curved frame and fairly follow the outboard curve.) I suggest you read up on planking technique to learn to visualize plank shapes and understand how to spile plank to develop the proper plank shapes necessary. (See:https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/LiningOffYourHullPlankingTutorialAndFan.pdf) Some planks must be cut from substantially wide stock to accommodate the plank's curved shape. The scale of the model will dictate the plank lengths and widths. If you plan to show the plank seams as is the case with bright-finished hulls, you will need more plank to replicate full-size planking at scale. if you are simply "planking" to attain the shape of the hull and then paint it, you'll have more latitude in "skinning" the hull. For these reasons, the answer to the question of how much planking stock you may need is, "It depends." Not a real helpful answer, I know. 
     
    You're talking about a good-sized model of 48". I'm guessing the scale is somewhere around 1:36 (1 inch equals about 3 feet.) If you put a rig on the model, it will stand about seven feet tall. Are you talking about a sailing model or a display model? At a scale that large, your build will probably require planking in the same manner as full-size practice. You will have to "line off" your planking and spile the planks to shape no matter how you cut it. You might as well get out your drawing board and do your spiling on paper to determine your maximum planking widths and scale lengths. This will provide you with a pretty good idea of the amount and size of planking stock you'll require to plank the hull. I'd add 25 to 50% additional to the planked area of the hull for off-cut waste and "goofs." With this sort of build, you will be better off milling your stock on an "as needed" basis than trying to source expensive pre-milled stock from the various vendors. 
     
    As a practical matter, particularly for a build the size you contemplate, I'd think you'd be well-advised to invest in the Byrnes Model Tools "trifecta, their  table saw, thickness planer, and disk sander, (http://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/index5.html), a decent scroll saw at the least, if not additionally a "14 bandsaw or a 10" table saw, and think in terms of buying your wood in fair sized billets and milling it yourself. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/MillingScaleLumber.pdf) These tools aren't inexpensive but they hold their value pretty well and can always be sold if you lose interest in the hobby and the savings you will realize milling your own stock will substantially defray their purchase cost. There are those, and more power to them, who will say that the great Navy Board Models in museums were built with hand tools (which isn't entirely true) and all you need is a coping saw and an x-acto knife and you're good to go. It is true some remarkable models have been built with remarkably primitive tools, but the reality is that the level of accuracy modelers aspire to today, and the time it takes to scratch-build a model, benefit greatly from a limited number of specialized power tools which can eliminate a lot of the tedium and drudgery which otherwise can go with the territory. (See: https://thenrg.org/articles/power-tools)
     
    Building an "as built" large scale model from scratch can be a daunting task, but, like any project, easy enough if it's broken into discrete steps and care is taken to do the best work possible on each step. It should be said, though, that unlike running shoes, advising a beginning modeler to "Just do it!" is more often a recipe for disappointment. A large scale J Boat can be a beautiful thing. They have remarkably graceful hulls. (Their tall rigs will often chase everybody out of the room when they're finished, though. )  I'd encourage you to begin and build upon what you've learned from your first model, but do it right and avoid the pitfalls that can take all the fun out of the enterprise in short order if you don't plan each process carefully in advance and...
     

  5. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in How do I figure out how much wood plank I need?   
    Hey, welcome to the forum! Before anybody else does, let me suggest you go to the "new members" section and "introduce yourself," if you haven't already. 
     
    I had some time on my hands and figured I'd respond to your question by sharing some thoughts on making the transition from model kit assembly to model building from scratch. Each approach has it's advantages and amazing work is done by many in both instances. it seems to be a natural progression, however, that folks begin with kits, then start supplementing their kit builds with aftermarket parts, then begin "kit bashing," and finally make the quantum leap to scratch building or what is known in the trade as "The Dark Side." The biggest difference between kit building and scratch building, as you've now discovered, whether you realize it or not, is that when scratch-building, the modeler must 'front load" his work with all the plans required, including translating plans for full-sized construction to plans for scale model construction, compiling materials lists, as you've encountered here, and so on. I'd guess the scratch builder puts as much time into historical research, drafting, tool acquisition, and shop management, as goes into the actual building process itself. If one doesn't have a taste for these tasks, they will probably enjoy greater satisfaction staying with with kit building.
     
    Since you mention planking with boxwood, I presume you are contemplating finishing the hull bright and showing all the plank seams. First off, you may want to reconsider using boxwood for planking after you price the stuff. There is a lot of waste involved in planking, although the offcuts will be useful for other purposes of the build. Boxwood can be stiff and difficult to bend, as well. Clear, fine grained Alaskan Yellow Cedar comes close in appearance and is easier to work with and considerably less expensive. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/AnOverviewOfWoodProperties.pdf)
     
    The method of planking is the first consideration. Do you plan to edge-set a lot of your planks as in the method described by master-modeler Chuck Passaro of this forum (and owner of Syren Shipmodel Company) or more traditional spiled plank? See: https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/) Chuck's method is much more economical in terms of wood requirements, but may not be suitable for all planks in a wineglass-sectioned hull like a J Boat.  A hull with a lot of "tuck" may also require planking stock of varying thicknesses to accommodate "backing out" and "rounding off" to achieve the sharp frame curves aft. (This process involves carving a convex or concave face on the plank so it will lay fair against the faying surface of a sharply curved frame and fairly follow the outboard curve.) I suggest you read up on planking technique to learn to visualize plank shapes and understand how to spile plank to develop the proper plank shapes necessary. (See:https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/LiningOffYourHullPlankingTutorialAndFan.pdf) Some planks must be cut from substantially wide stock to accommodate the plank's curved shape. The scale of the model will dictate the plank lengths and widths. If you plan to show the plank seams as is the case with bright-finished hulls, you will need more plank to replicate full-size planking at scale. if you are simply "planking" to attain the shape of the hull and then paint it, you'll have more latitude in "skinning" the hull. For these reasons, the answer to the question of how much planking stock you may need is, "It depends." Not a real helpful answer, I know. 
     
    You're talking about a good-sized model of 48". I'm guessing the scale is somewhere around 1:36 (1 inch equals about 3 feet.) If you put a rig on the model, it will stand about seven feet tall. Are you talking about a sailing model or a display model? At a scale that large, your build will probably require planking in the same manner as full-size practice. You will have to "line off" your planking and spile the planks to shape no matter how you cut it. You might as well get out your drawing board and do your spiling on paper to determine your maximum planking widths and scale lengths. This will provide you with a pretty good idea of the amount and size of planking stock you'll require to plank the hull. I'd add 25 to 50% additional to the planked area of the hull for off-cut waste and "goofs." With this sort of build, you will be better off milling your stock on an "as needed" basis than trying to source expensive pre-milled stock from the various vendors. 
     
    As a practical matter, particularly for a build the size you contemplate, I'd think you'd be well-advised to invest in the Byrnes Model Tools "trifecta, their  table saw, thickness planer, and disk sander, (http://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/index5.html), a decent scroll saw at the least, if not additionally a "14 bandsaw or a 10" table saw, and think in terms of buying your wood in fair sized billets and milling it yourself. (See: https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/MillingScaleLumber.pdf) These tools aren't inexpensive but they hold their value pretty well and can always be sold if you lose interest in the hobby and the savings you will realize milling your own stock will substantially defray their purchase cost. There are those, and more power to them, who will say that the great Navy Board Models in museums were built with hand tools (which isn't entirely true) and all you need is a coping saw and an x-acto knife and you're good to go. It is true some remarkable models have been built with remarkably primitive tools, but the reality is that the level of accuracy modelers aspire to today, and the time it takes to scratch-build a model, benefit greatly from a limited number of specialized power tools which can eliminate a lot of the tedium and drudgery which otherwise can go with the territory. (See: https://thenrg.org/articles/power-tools)
     
    Building an "as built" large scale model from scratch can be a daunting task, but, like any project, easy enough if it's broken into discrete steps and care is taken to do the best work possible on each step. It should be said, though, that unlike running shoes, advising a beginning modeler to "Just do it!" is more often a recipe for disappointment. A large scale J Boat can be a beautiful thing. They have remarkably graceful hulls. (Their tall rigs will often chase everybody out of the room when they're finished, though. )  I'd encourage you to begin and build upon what you've learned from your first model, but do it right and avoid the pitfalls that can take all the fun out of the enterprise in short order if you don't plan each process carefully in advance and...
     

  6. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Boccherini in Wood filler recommendations   
    No kidding! Don'tcha just hate waking up in a cold sweat dreaming about that "rare, but life-threatening infection in the skin of the perineum?"  
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Wood filler recommendations   
    Recognizing that I may be sticking my neck out here, I'll offer the comment that the warnings seen on many solvent-based materials these days exist more for the manufacturer's' protection against products liability lawsuits which often result from the misuse of the product than for the protection of folks who use the product "as directed for the use intended." If you read the warnings now printed on a common ladder, you'd never climb one again. This phenomenon has created a certain level of paranoia in the general public, many of whom shy away from anything that has an odor they've been conditioned to find disagreeable. While chemistry continues to make progress in developing non-solvent-based materials, in most instances these substitute "water-based" materials intended to replace long-established solvent-based materials are inferior to their solvent-based predecessors, particularly with respect to their archival qualities, an important consideration in modeling. When used as directed, meaning "in a well-ventilated workspace" and in the small amounts encountered in modeling, there is generally negligible risk in using solvent-based materials. Commonsense is the order of the day in this respect. Without question, pouring an excessive amount of solvent-based material in a paper bag and "huffing" it is hazardous to your health, but we aren't contemplating that sort of misuse. Sadly, the general public's conditioned reaction to these product warnings has reduced the marketability of valuable materials and chased many manufacturers out of the marketplace entirely. (The demise of Floquil paints being a prime example.) In jurisdictions like California, which requires warning labels on anything that "may cause cancer or birth defects," we find state-mandated warning labels to that effect on everything from gasoline to wine and many long-valued solvent-based products can no longer be legally purchased at all. Local "product safety" ordinances in some California "air quality districts" even go so far as to outlaw the sale of any volatile organic compounds above a certain content limit including simple oil-based enamel paint or paint thinner and the like and, consequently, all that can be purchased anymore are inferior water-based coatings. Mindfulness of shop safety is a good thing, but we should not "throw the baby out with the bath water." Otherwise, we will continue to find valuable materials becoming entirely unavailable to the detriment of our craft.
     
    That said, Bondo is a hygroscopic material intended for use on dented automotive body metal and is not intended for nor suitable for use on wooden surfaces. 
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in Wood filler recommendations   
    It actually might be easier to take out the piece and make a new one.  Your call of course, but just a thought.  Many of us like to use posterboard stock which is pretty stiff or even the cardboard on the back of a tablet to make a template then go from there.  Saves a lot of shaping and do-overs.
    Allan
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in Wood filler recommendations   
    CYA is rampant.  Look at pharma ads for examples.  It takes longer to rattle off the side effects than the benefit.
     
    Don,
    Regarding the subject at hand, how large are the gaps?   As mentioned above, sawdust and pva work well.   One quick way is to fill the gap (if small) with pva and hit it with an orbital mouse or similar.  
     
    Sorry to bring this up, but as you are adding strakes, if there is a large gap, remove the plank before gluing it in place and re-shape it or replace it with a new one that has been properly pre-shaped as shown in the planking tutorial by David Antscherl in the Articles data base here at MSW (https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf) or shown in Chuck Passaro's four part video on how to pre-shape the planks with heated edge bending  Part one --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWooJ1o3cM     Both methods yield properly planked hulls without gaps.
     
    Allan
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Snug Harbor Johnny in Wood filler recommendations   
    I forgot about Durham's water putty (which cures fairly tough - perhaps not quite as hard as what Dentists call 'stone, a type of plaster made for casting likeness of teeth after and impression is made), and can be sanded.  You need to apply to a 'porous or fibrous substrate (like coarse sanded planking) ... something with "tooth" for the plaster to grip to.  If one seals first (or the surface is very fine sanded), the dried Durham's can flake off.  No fumes to worry about, mate.  Yet manufacturers are advised by their lawyers to be SUPER cautious and plaster warnings all over whatever product they are selling.  Like a flimsy card table that has a warning - DO NOT stand on this flimsy POS - because it will collapse under your weight.
  11. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Dsmith20639 in Wood filler recommendations   
    Recognizing that I may be sticking my neck out here, I'll offer the comment that the warnings seen on many solvent-based materials these days exist more for the manufacturer's' protection against products liability lawsuits which often result from the misuse of the product than for the protection of folks who use the product "as directed for the use intended." If you read the warnings now printed on a common ladder, you'd never climb one again. This phenomenon has created a certain level of paranoia in the general public, many of whom shy away from anything that has an odor they've been conditioned to find disagreeable. While chemistry continues to make progress in developing non-solvent-based materials, in most instances these substitute "water-based" materials intended to replace long-established solvent-based materials are inferior to their solvent-based predecessors, particularly with respect to their archival qualities, an important consideration in modeling. When used as directed, meaning "in a well-ventilated workspace" and in the small amounts encountered in modeling, there is generally negligible risk in using solvent-based materials. Commonsense is the order of the day in this respect. Without question, pouring an excessive amount of solvent-based material in a paper bag and "huffing" it is hazardous to your health, but we aren't contemplating that sort of misuse. Sadly, the general public's conditioned reaction to these product warnings has reduced the marketability of valuable materials and chased many manufacturers out of the marketplace entirely. (The demise of Floquil paints being a prime example.) In jurisdictions like California, which requires warning labels on anything that "may cause cancer or birth defects," we find state-mandated warning labels to that effect on everything from gasoline to wine and many long-valued solvent-based products can no longer be legally purchased at all. Local "product safety" ordinances in some California "air quality districts" even go so far as to outlaw the sale of any volatile organic compounds above a certain content limit including simple oil-based enamel paint or paint thinner and the like and, consequently, all that can be purchased anymore are inferior water-based coatings. Mindfulness of shop safety is a good thing, but we should not "throw the baby out with the bath water." Otherwise, we will continue to find valuable materials becoming entirely unavailable to the detriment of our craft.
     
    That said, Bondo is a hygroscopic material intended for use on dented automotive body metal and is not intended for nor suitable for use on wooden surfaces. 
  12. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DonBMichigan in Wood filler recommendations   
    Recognizing that I may be sticking my neck out here, I'll offer the comment that the warnings seen on many solvent-based materials these days exist more for the manufacturer's' protection against products liability lawsuits which often result from the misuse of the product than for the protection of folks who use the product "as directed for the use intended." If you read the warnings now printed on a common ladder, you'd never climb one again. This phenomenon has created a certain level of paranoia in the general public, many of whom shy away from anything that has an odor they've been conditioned to find disagreeable. While chemistry continues to make progress in developing non-solvent-based materials, in most instances these substitute "water-based" materials intended to replace long-established solvent-based materials are inferior to their solvent-based predecessors, particularly with respect to their archival qualities, an important consideration in modeling. When used as directed, meaning "in a well-ventilated workspace" and in the small amounts encountered in modeling, there is generally negligible risk in using solvent-based materials. Commonsense is the order of the day in this respect. Without question, pouring an excessive amount of solvent-based material in a paper bag and "huffing" it is hazardous to your health, but we aren't contemplating that sort of misuse. Sadly, the general public's conditioned reaction to these product warnings has reduced the marketability of valuable materials and chased many manufacturers out of the marketplace entirely. (The demise of Floquil paints being a prime example.) In jurisdictions like California, which requires warning labels on anything that "may cause cancer or birth defects," we find state-mandated warning labels to that effect on everything from gasoline to wine and many long-valued solvent-based products can no longer be legally purchased at all. Local "product safety" ordinances in some California "air quality districts" even go so far as to outlaw the sale of any volatile organic compounds above a certain content limit including simple oil-based enamel paint or paint thinner and the like and, consequently, all that can be purchased anymore are inferior water-based coatings. Mindfulness of shop safety is a good thing, but we should not "throw the baby out with the bath water." Otherwise, we will continue to find valuable materials becoming entirely unavailable to the detriment of our craft.
     
    That said, Bondo is a hygroscopic material intended for use on dented automotive body metal and is not intended for nor suitable for use on wooden surfaces. 
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Zocane in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    True that, Roger, but there's a lot of difference between wood species that will be encountered. A hardwood gun stock of walnut, for example, will not "whisker" much at all. On the other hand, a piece of soft basswood will "whisker" a lot over repeated wettings. Sealing any wood with shellac will harden the surface of the wood and subsequent sanding to remove "whiskers," "fuzz," or raised grain will then only need to be done once, rather than repeatedly until there's no more grain rising when the wood is wetted. 
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Old Collingwood in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    True that, Roger, but there's a lot of difference between wood species that will be encountered. A hardwood gun stock of walnut, for example, will not "whisker" much at all. On the other hand, a piece of soft basswood will "whisker" a lot over repeated wettings. Sealing any wood with shellac will harden the surface of the wood and subsequent sanding to remove "whiskers," "fuzz," or raised grain will then only need to be done once, rather than repeatedly until there's no more grain rising when the wood is wetted. 
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    True that, Roger, but there's a lot of difference between wood species that will be encountered. A hardwood gun stock of walnut, for example, will not "whisker" much at all. On the other hand, a piece of soft basswood will "whisker" a lot over repeated wettings. Sealing any wood with shellac will harden the surface of the wood and subsequent sanding to remove "whiskers," "fuzz," or raised grain will then only need to be done once, rather than repeatedly until there's no more grain rising when the wood is wetted. 
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    True that, Roger, but there's a lot of difference between wood species that will be encountered. A hardwood gun stock of walnut, for example, will not "whisker" much at all. On the other hand, a piece of soft basswood will "whisker" a lot over repeated wettings. Sealing any wood with shellac will harden the surface of the wood and subsequent sanding to remove "whiskers," "fuzz," or raised grain will then only need to be done once, rather than repeatedly until there's no more grain rising when the wood is wetted. 
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Roger Pellett in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    Gunstock makers “whisker” the carved stock before applying a finish.  This involves nothing more than wiping down with a wet cloth and letting the stock dry.  The raised grain is then sanded off with fine sandpaper.  The cycle is repeated until whiskers no longer appear.  The same principle could be applied with water based paints on a ship model hull.
     
    Roger
  18. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Old Collingwood in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    I haven't specifically used Windsor-Newton Artesian water-soluble artists' oils at all. As I understand it, these are traditional oil paints using some form of treated linseed oil that is water soluble. This supposedly provides the advantage of avoiding the aroma of turpentine which is traditionally used as a solvent. I love the smell of turpentine in the morning... smells like... like victory! Other's mileage may vary, it seems. The use of water-based coatings on  the bare wood of models is not advised because water soaks into wood and raises the grain and "fuzz" to one degree or another depending upon the wood species and grain orientation. Multiple coats of water-based coatings can be applied and any resulting raised grain can be sanded fair, in which instance the first coat(s) serve as the sealer. Oil-based coatings will also benefit from a sealer applied first to the wood surface, but will not raise the wood grain.
     
    Given Windsor-Newton's description of this product, I can't imagine any problem using it for painting wooden models. As you are an experienced oil painter, I need not go into detail about choosing between the various brands and types of tubed oils except to mention generally that one should choose a line of oil paint that is commensurate with the quality of the model and the personal standards of the modeler. As most of us hope that our models will last some time, color-fastness is probably the first criterion in choosing an oil paint. second in importance will be the amount and quality of pigment (the more finely ground, the better, pigment being the greatest determinant of a particular color's price,) and lastly consistency. For those who are unfamiliar with artists' oils and acrylics, there is a very wide range of quality between the various lines of each brand and you get what you pay for. Lower priced "student" oils are at the bottom end of the spectrum and high-priced "professional grade" artists' oils are at the top end. Internet research on brand and type ratings will be found beneficial. Learning to mix colors expands the amount of colors available from a limited amount of tubed colors and ship modeling has the advantage of requiring a very limited pallete of colors, generally black, white, burnt sienna, yellow, and red. There's no need to buy an expensive "starter set" of tubed paint. 
     
    For those unfamiliar with tubed oil paints, suffice it to say that they are simply "really thick paint packaged in a toothpaste tube." You squeeze out a bit and then condition it to your desired purpose. Add solvent (usually turpintine) and/or linseed (or whatever oil is the carrier) to thin it and modify handling consistency. You might want to add a bit of acetone to oil paint or alcohol to acrylic paint (consistent with what is compatible with the paint) when airbrushing because these solvents will evaporate more quickly and speed "drying" time. (Sometimes a very small amount of Japan drier can also be used to speed drying, as can "flattening" additive to adjust the finish gloss to a more matte finish.)
     
    There is nothing special about painting wood except that water based coatings will likely raise the grain and thus require sealing before use, or sanding after a first coat, that serving as a sealer.) Others have their own preferred sealers and the modeling paint companies are only too happy to offer expensive sealers to accommodate their customers. In fact, the best sealer for wood modeling is simply two- or three-pound-cut shellac. This can be bought in just about any paint or hardware store in pre-mixed cans. (Zinsser "Bullseye" is a common brand in the US.) Shellac is often referred to as "white" or clear shellac," or "orange shellac." The "orange" (running to dark brown as the number of coats increases) shellac is its natural color. The "white" or "clear" shellac has been bleached so it imparts no color to the surface. This is preferred for most modeling purposes. Shellac is also sold in "flake" form and is then diluted in denatured alcohol The "pound cut" refers to the amount of shellac flakes added to a gallon of alcohol and thus the dilution, and consistency, of the shellac, Shellac, being carried in alcohol, dries very quickly. Alcohol does not raise wood grain like water does. (Once soaked in and dried, it will permit sanding off the "fuzz" on softwoods like basswood to achieve a perfectly smooth surface necessary for accurate scale effect.) After the alcohol has been applied to the piece, the piece can be painted with any coating one wishes. In some instances, one will want to apply a base coat to ensure color uniformity, followed by the final top finish coats.
     
    YouTube is full of instructional videos on the use of tubed oil paints generally and on miniatures specifically.  Check them out.
     
     
  19. Laugh
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Zocane in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    Most of the stuff I know was learned from making mistakes!    
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Zocane in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    Yes, you can spray, or brush, enamel or acrylic paint over dried shellac. Apply the shellac first and let dry, then sand lightly to remove any imperfections. If you sand through the shellac coat, apply another coat of shellac. Sanding the dried shellac will remove any "fuzz" from softwood, (e.g. basswood) and yield a smooth surface for painting.
  21. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Zocane in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    Well, your in luck with a whaleboat, since they were pretty much only two colors, black and white. Sometimes the inboard was painted gray, but that's just black and white mixed together. (Some carried a brightly colored sheer strake for long-range identification from the mother ship, as well.) 
     
    Any of the modeling paints would be fine. Seal the wood with clear ("white") shellac and then paint. Some use a sanding basecoat and then a finish top coat. The sanding base coat will permit a very fine finish which is required for the proper scale appearance. 
     
    Review the painting section of the forum. It's full of good information on the subject.
     
  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    I haven't specifically used Windsor-Newton Artesian water-soluble artists' oils at all. As I understand it, these are traditional oil paints using some form of treated linseed oil that is water soluble. This supposedly provides the advantage of avoiding the aroma of turpentine which is traditionally used as a solvent. I love the smell of turpentine in the morning... smells like... like victory! Other's mileage may vary, it seems. The use of water-based coatings on  the bare wood of models is not advised because water soaks into wood and raises the grain and "fuzz" to one degree or another depending upon the wood species and grain orientation. Multiple coats of water-based coatings can be applied and any resulting raised grain can be sanded fair, in which instance the first coat(s) serve as the sealer. Oil-based coatings will also benefit from a sealer applied first to the wood surface, but will not raise the wood grain.
     
    Given Windsor-Newton's description of this product, I can't imagine any problem using it for painting wooden models. As you are an experienced oil painter, I need not go into detail about choosing between the various brands and types of tubed oils except to mention generally that one should choose a line of oil paint that is commensurate with the quality of the model and the personal standards of the modeler. As most of us hope that our models will last some time, color-fastness is probably the first criterion in choosing an oil paint. second in importance will be the amount and quality of pigment (the more finely ground, the better, pigment being the greatest determinant of a particular color's price,) and lastly consistency. For those who are unfamiliar with artists' oils and acrylics, there is a very wide range of quality between the various lines of each brand and you get what you pay for. Lower priced "student" oils are at the bottom end of the spectrum and high-priced "professional grade" artists' oils are at the top end. Internet research on brand and type ratings will be found beneficial. Learning to mix colors expands the amount of colors available from a limited amount of tubed colors and ship modeling has the advantage of requiring a very limited pallete of colors, generally black, white, burnt sienna, yellow, and red. There's no need to buy an expensive "starter set" of tubed paint. 
     
    For those unfamiliar with tubed oil paints, suffice it to say that they are simply "really thick paint packaged in a toothpaste tube." You squeeze out a bit and then condition it to your desired purpose. Add solvent (usually turpintine) and/or linseed (or whatever oil is the carrier) to thin it and modify handling consistency. You might want to add a bit of acetone to oil paint or alcohol to acrylic paint (consistent with what is compatible with the paint) when airbrushing because these solvents will evaporate more quickly and speed "drying" time. (Sometimes a very small amount of Japan drier can also be used to speed drying, as can "flattening" additive to adjust the finish gloss to a more matte finish.)
     
    There is nothing special about painting wood except that water based coatings will likely raise the grain and thus require sealing before use, or sanding after a first coat, that serving as a sealer.) Others have their own preferred sealers and the modeling paint companies are only too happy to offer expensive sealers to accommodate their customers. In fact, the best sealer for wood modeling is simply two- or three-pound-cut shellac. This can be bought in just about any paint or hardware store in pre-mixed cans. (Zinsser "Bullseye" is a common brand in the US.) Shellac is often referred to as "white" or clear shellac," or "orange shellac." The "orange" (running to dark brown as the number of coats increases) shellac is its natural color. The "white" or "clear" shellac has been bleached so it imparts no color to the surface. This is preferred for most modeling purposes. Shellac is also sold in "flake" form and is then diluted in denatured alcohol The "pound cut" refers to the amount of shellac flakes added to a gallon of alcohol and thus the dilution, and consistency, of the shellac, Shellac, being carried in alcohol, dries very quickly. Alcohol does not raise wood grain like water does. (Once soaked in and dried, it will permit sanding off the "fuzz" on softwoods like basswood to achieve a perfectly smooth surface necessary for accurate scale effect.) After the alcohol has been applied to the piece, the piece can be painted with any coating one wishes. In some instances, one will want to apply a base coat to ensure color uniformity, followed by the final top finish coats.
     
    YouTube is full of instructional videos on the use of tubed oil paints generally and on miniatures specifically.  Check them out.
     
     
  23. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from HardeeHarHar in SOLD - An entire workshop’s stock of model shipbuilding equipment and supplies for sale   
    You can take the measure of a man by looking at his tools. This fellow is quite a modeler. Very nice shop!
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Paint Conversion Charts   
    I did not know that. Very interesting. It makes perfect sense that they'd not be too worried about antifouling paint there. I have not idea what the local regs are, but there are lots of rust-inhibiting coatings available now, so red lead isn't needed. (They can even spray molten zinc, which results in the equivalent of hot dipped galvanizing.) They come at a cost, though. In my neck of the woods, they stopped painting the Golden Gate Bridge with red lead paint years ago. They now use another coating of the same color. 
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from East Ender in Best paint for wooden ship models   
    I haven't specifically used Windsor-Newton Artesian water-soluble artists' oils at all. As I understand it, these are traditional oil paints using some form of treated linseed oil that is water soluble. This supposedly provides the advantage of avoiding the aroma of turpentine which is traditionally used as a solvent. I love the smell of turpentine in the morning... smells like... like victory! Other's mileage may vary, it seems. The use of water-based coatings on  the bare wood of models is not advised because water soaks into wood and raises the grain and "fuzz" to one degree or another depending upon the wood species and grain orientation. Multiple coats of water-based coatings can be applied and any resulting raised grain can be sanded fair, in which instance the first coat(s) serve as the sealer. Oil-based coatings will also benefit from a sealer applied first to the wood surface, but will not raise the wood grain.
     
    Given Windsor-Newton's description of this product, I can't imagine any problem using it for painting wooden models. As you are an experienced oil painter, I need not go into detail about choosing between the various brands and types of tubed oils except to mention generally that one should choose a line of oil paint that is commensurate with the quality of the model and the personal standards of the modeler. As most of us hope that our models will last some time, color-fastness is probably the first criterion in choosing an oil paint. second in importance will be the amount and quality of pigment (the more finely ground, the better, pigment being the greatest determinant of a particular color's price,) and lastly consistency. For those who are unfamiliar with artists' oils and acrylics, there is a very wide range of quality between the various lines of each brand and you get what you pay for. Lower priced "student" oils are at the bottom end of the spectrum and high-priced "professional grade" artists' oils are at the top end. Internet research on brand and type ratings will be found beneficial. Learning to mix colors expands the amount of colors available from a limited amount of tubed colors and ship modeling has the advantage of requiring a very limited pallete of colors, generally black, white, burnt sienna, yellow, and red. There's no need to buy an expensive "starter set" of tubed paint. 
     
    For those unfamiliar with tubed oil paints, suffice it to say that they are simply "really thick paint packaged in a toothpaste tube." You squeeze out a bit and then condition it to your desired purpose. Add solvent (usually turpintine) and/or linseed (or whatever oil is the carrier) to thin it and modify handling consistency. You might want to add a bit of acetone to oil paint or alcohol to acrylic paint (consistent with what is compatible with the paint) when airbrushing because these solvents will evaporate more quickly and speed "drying" time. (Sometimes a very small amount of Japan drier can also be used to speed drying, as can "flattening" additive to adjust the finish gloss to a more matte finish.)
     
    There is nothing special about painting wood except that water based coatings will likely raise the grain and thus require sealing before use, or sanding after a first coat, that serving as a sealer.) Others have their own preferred sealers and the modeling paint companies are only too happy to offer expensive sealers to accommodate their customers. In fact, the best sealer for wood modeling is simply two- or three-pound-cut shellac. This can be bought in just about any paint or hardware store in pre-mixed cans. (Zinsser "Bullseye" is a common brand in the US.) Shellac is often referred to as "white" or clear shellac," or "orange shellac." The "orange" (running to dark brown as the number of coats increases) shellac is its natural color. The "white" or "clear" shellac has been bleached so it imparts no color to the surface. This is preferred for most modeling purposes. Shellac is also sold in "flake" form and is then diluted in denatured alcohol The "pound cut" refers to the amount of shellac flakes added to a gallon of alcohol and thus the dilution, and consistency, of the shellac, Shellac, being carried in alcohol, dries very quickly. Alcohol does not raise wood grain like water does. (Once soaked in and dried, it will permit sanding off the "fuzz" on softwoods like basswood to achieve a perfectly smooth surface necessary for accurate scale effect.) After the alcohol has been applied to the piece, the piece can be painted with any coating one wishes. In some instances, one will want to apply a base coat to ensure color uniformity, followed by the final top finish coats.
     
    YouTube is full of instructional videos on the use of tubed oil paints generally and on miniatures specifically.  Check them out.
     
     
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