USS Constitution by Modeler12 - FINISHED - Model Shipways

[CaptainSteve]

Welcome back, Jay ...

I was hoping you hadn't forgotten about your Connie.

 

[JSGerson]

I am also using Mr. Hunt's practicum, in my case for the Rattlesnake and would not have even considered building it if it were not for Mr. Hunt's instructions. Like you, I have learned a lot. As an out right beginner in this area of model building, it was invaluable. To a more experienced builder maybe not so much. Yes there are deficiencies, omissions, errors, etc., but like all, nobody is perfect. Would I buy his practicum again, not only yes but I already did. I got lucky; a few years ago Mr. Hunt ran a short term sale. He offered ALL of his practicums for one total price of under $200 (I can't remember exactly). Since I wanted to build the Conny, I jumped at the chance and got them all. They make for a nice reference library.

[Modeler12]

I am also using Mr. Hunt's practicum, in my case for the Rattlesnake and would not have even considered building it if it were not for Mr. Hunt's instructions. Like you, I have learned a lot. As an out right beginner in this area of model building, it was invaluable. To a more experienced builder maybe not so much. Yes there are deficiencies, omissions, errors, etc., but like all, nobody is perfect. Would I buy his practicum again, not only yes but I already did. I got lucky; a few years ago Mr. Hunt ran a short term sale. He offered ALL of his practicums for one total price of under $200 (I can't remember exactly). Since I wanted to build the Conny, I jumped at the chance and got them all. They make for a nice reference library.

You know, on hind sight you may be right about the instructions Mr. Hunt put together. They certainly were useful to me when I got started. Yes, there were several points where I took a different approach, but all and all I am not sure where I would be with this model if it had not been for this 'practicum' and the forum that he had going at that time. It kept me going.

 

The interactions with others on that forum were great and they are a bit like it is on this forum. The main difference was that Mr. Hunt did not like it when I suggested alternative ways of doing a few things. He made it very clear that criticism was not allowed (and that certainly is not the way a 'college' is run; hence my dislike of thinking of his instructions as being a 'practicum'). When I did make some snide remark, he became unglued and send me an email with language I have only heard on R-rated movies or in West Oakland. Since I was one of his 'customers' I thought he was out of line. I finally told him to take me off his forum and delete my inputs.

 

I am starting to make a list of my suggestions about how to build the USS Constitution model. There will be many areas that are not detailed like Mr. Hunt has, but the approach will be more in line with what I consider 'logical'. One example is to leave a lot of the exterior hull details until last or at least not until the rigging has been done. The gun port lids are in the way and are prone to break, the netting on top of the rails are not to be installed until later, etc. Another is to leave room to belay the lines coming from above by holding off with the shrouds and other lines that are belayed along the outside. In other words, work from the inside out (and from the top on down). Radical? Maybe, but it has worked well for me. I still have some main and fore mast shrouds and ratlines to rig (they have been hanging there for quite some time). I could not have installed the Bentnick shrouds if all the ratlines were already there. My whole concept is to think way ahead of every step and consider the difficulties an addition may impose on installing subsequent parts. Again installing the netting on top of the rail before adding masts and rigging is a good example of what not to do.

[GLakie]

The interactions with others on that forum were great and they are a bit like it is on this forum. The main difference was that Mr. Hunt did not like it when I suggested alternative ways of doing a few things. He made it very clear that criticism was not allowed (and that certainly is not the way a 'college' is run; hence my dislike of thinking of his instructions as being a 'practicum'). When I did make some snide remark, he became unglued and send me an email with language I have only heard on R-rated movies or in West Oakland. Since I was one of his 'customers' I thought he was out of line. I finally told him to take me off his forum and delete my inputs.

 

Having dealt with the public in my lines of work, all my life, there are certain things you just don't do to customers, or anybody for that matter. Being close-minded and down-right rude is something that deserves repercussions. You're pretty much echoing what I've already heard, and as a result, I won't even consider paying him for a practicum. I think I would have posted his rude words from that e-mail in the forum and let all his other customers see what kind of person he is. 

 

Fair Winds

[robnbill]

Hey Jay. Welcome back. It will be good to read your lessons learned. I had made it part of the regular process to read ahead in the Mamoli plans. Then i would have time to review them and decide my approach before i got there. I installed the side shrouds but not the lower rats because i knew they would be in the way.

 

Some areas make obvious choices cor scratch building. Such as the ships boats, i made the gallery da its since they were the more modern metal.

 

I too follwed your lead and installed the Bentinck shrouds, and cross feet. I always learn so much from your build.

 

Aosl one other question i had. Why did you install your deck boat facing aft?

 

Bill

[Modeler12]

Aosl one other question i had. Why did you install your deck boat facing aft?

 

Bill

Good question, Bill.

When I started to make the hull of the deck boat, I ran into a problem sanding the hull too thin. That is why I decided to make the cover and 'cover up' my inside mistake. For the same reason I had the thin side of the hull on the starboard side of that boat and it did not look right. Since the whole ship will eventually be against a wall with the starboard side facing out, I decided to mount the deck boat the way it is. 

Now it looks too overbearing and later I will make a whole new deck boat. It is easy to get to so that should not be a problem except more time to do it right. Now I know that it will be a very visible part of the whole display and to have a nice detailed boat would be best.

[Guest Tim I.]

You know, on hind sight you may be right about the instructions Mr. Hunt put together. They certainly were useful to me when I got started. Yes, there were several points where I took a different approach, but all and all I am not sure where I would be with this model if it had not been for this 'practicum' and the forum that he had going at that time. It kept me going.

 

The interactions with others on that forum were great and they are a bit like it is on this forum. The main difference was that Mr. Hunt did not like it when I suggested alternative ways of doing a few things. He made it very clear that criticism was not allowed (and that certainly is not the way a 'college' is run; hence my dislike of thinking of his instructions as being a 'practicum'). When I did make some snide remark, he became unglued and send me an email with language I have only heard on R-rated movies or in West Oakland. Since I was one of his 'customers' I thought he was out of line. I finally told him to take me off his forum and delete my inputs.

 

I am starting to make a list of my suggestions about how to build the USS Constitution model. There will be many areas that are not detailed like Mr. Hunt has, but the approach will be more in line with what I consider 'logical'. One example is to leave a lot of the exterior hull details until last or at least not until the rigging has been done. The gun port lids are in the way and are prone to break, the netting on top of the rails are not to be installed until later, etc. Another is to leave room to belay the lines coming from above by holding off with the shrouds and other lines that are belayed along the outside. In other words, work from the inside out (and from the top on down). Radical? Maybe, but it has worked well for me. I still have some main and fore mast shrouds and ratlines to rig (they have been hanging there for quite some time). I could not have installed the Bentnick shrouds if all the ratlines were already there. My whole concept is to think way ahead of every step and consider the difficulties an addition may impose on installing subsequent parts. Again installing the netting on top of the rail before adding masts and rigging is a good example of what not to do.

 

Jay,

 

I agree with your point about this forum. My Constitution build is on hold currently and I hope to get back to it this year, as I am still in the process of deciding on how I want to present the ship (i.e. War of 1812 configuration). I have found this forum to be invaluable over the past year or two I have participated in it. I think in many ways it has given me greater access to different ways of doing things that I might not have considered, and the active discourse helps to hone how I might approach something I have never done before.

 

It is this active discourse, constant sharing of techniques, that makes this forum and contributions from its members so valuable. Like you pointed out this is the place to gain insight on touch problems or to learn a new technique.

 

It is too bad that you had that experience with Bob Hunt, and that he was close minded to a different approach. No one can be a true expert on shipbuilding, but I think that by all of our collaborative efforts we get closer to that mark. It is a shame Bob Hunt was not open to that.

 

I am greatly enjoying your log, and will look at it frequently once I begin my Constitution build again.

 

- Tim

[JSGerson]

Jay:

 

I have heard a lot about Mr. Hunt both good and bad, He is an "interesting" character. It's funny that you stated that he doesn't accept alternative ideas. In his Rattlesnake practicum, he did state that if you find a better way of doing something, go ahead and do it that way. So maybe he received so much "helpful" criticism, he just got pissed off because they didn't appreciate his efforts - who knows? Personally, I haven't had much dealings with him other than a few questions I posed which were answered decently, so I can't fault him. Your experience was obviously different than mine. I will take the good he has to offer and ignore the crap. 

 

This is no one right way of doing something and this forum proves it. I look forward to your completed Suggestion List as I know it will be helpful to all of us.

 

Jon

[Modeler12]

I came across the CD called 'Building the Constitution, Sophomore Course', the 'practicum' that got me started. 

I bought this some time ago and it probably is still valid. But I have no longer any use for it.

So it is free of charge to anyone who wants it.

Send me an email with address, etc. and it is yours. 

Keep in mind that this is not a copy, paid for and mine. So there is no problem giving this to you. What you do with it is your decision.

[CaptainSteve]

Jay,

If it hasn't already been claimed, then I'd really be interested in the Sophomore Course CD. Pretty sure I still have your e-mail on home computer, so will whiz one off to you this evening.

[Modeler12]

Jay,

If it hasn't already been claimed, then I'd really be interested in the Sophomore Course CD. Pretty sure I still have your e-mail on home computer, so will whiz one off to you this evening.

You've got it. Just send me an email with address, etc.

[CaptainSteve]

E-mail sent ... and, again, Thanks !!!

[Modeler12]

E-mail sent ... and, again, Thanks !!!

Enjoy. Sending things like this from the US is not cheap! You folks must pay a hefty price when ordering things from here. I know the same goes for the rest of the world, of course.

 

By now Steve you are well aware of a few hints when starting to put the frame, hull and all the other pieces together:

Go slow and be sure that you understand the why and how before gluing things together. Dry fit!!!

When you lay out the bulkheads and center frame, be sure that they fit snug but not tight. Use files to do this for the sides and bottom of the slots. It is vital that the lines match, otherwise the frames do not come together to make a smooth deck and hull. Check and double check.

I'll have lots of other suggestions later.

[Modeler12]

I ran into a snag while adding the rat lines to the futtock shrouds. It is related to my stubborn way of holding off doing this until now. 

All along I have done well by using needle and thread to punch the rat lines through the shrouds. I would tie this off with a tiny drop of CA glue and trim the ends after the glue is set.

 

The futtock shrouds, however, are hard to get to and in my case the jack spar and other lines made it difficult to use the needle approach. Tying the lines by hand was near impossible. What I ended up doing is to spray some contact glue on the rat lines before hand. I prevented the glue from coating the ends of the lines by covering them with a couple index cards, as shown below.

Now I was able to 'glue' the rat lines against the shrouds and come back later to make the joints permanent with a drop of CA glue. 

[Geoff Matson]

Hello Jay  

 

Glad to see you are back at it. I too have taken some time off, but am now in the process of getting back to it. Will be posting soon.

[Modeler12]

Hello Jay  

 

Glad to see you are back at it. I too have taken some time off, but am now in the process of getting back to it. Will be posting soon.

Good to hear from you Geoff. I always loved your work and will be watching your model grow with expert hands.

One thing in particular I will have to pay close attention to is how you built your ship boats. I need to redo the large one.

[Modeler12]

 I look forward to your completed Suggestion List as I know it will be helpful to all of us.

 

Jon

Jon, I will leave further discussions about Mr. Hunt behind.

 

When I started this build, I had my own web site and showed how I was going about it. Because of personal reasons I stopped the site but I still have the pages with lots of pictures and descriptions. I was hoping to simply post those as 'added files' here. It works, except now the photographs don't come through because the web page in question refers to other internal files (on my computer) where the pictures are located. In order to fix this I would have to recreate each page and I don't know if I want to bother.

 

Let me ponder this a bit.

[robnbill]

Jay, it might be easier just to tie them at this point. I found that the bent tweezers worked on getting to the hard to reach lines.

[Modeler12]

Suggestion 1.
On the first page of this build-log I showed how I started the hull. It included the way I pre-built the gun ports. It was a lot easier than putting one piece of each port in place. What I did not mention is that it is important to define the vertical size on the basis of what the width is for five hull planks. My kit had hull planks that were very ratty along the edges. I sanded them a bit to get sharp planks. However, this reduced the overall width of the plank and the combined height did not match the gun ports. I had to use small shims to correct this.

Point is again to think ahead.

 

Suggestion 2. 

If you decide to put rivets in the bulwarks, don't do them one at a time like Mr. Hunt did. Set up a 'assembly line' as shown on page 1.

What is more important is to reverse the order of this construction (something I did not realize until much later).

What I mean here is to do the planking of the outside hull first and then come back, cut the port openings and to do the inside bulwarks. This results in a much smoother hull which is much more obvious than the 'busy' inside wall.

 

Suggestion 3.

The real hatch cover frames are indeed built with lap joints, but for my model that was a lot of extra work (nicely shown and done by Mr. Hunt). I used simple miter joints and they are ok. 
I did use better wood to make the frames by buying some walnut strips from Hobby Mill. That also included cutting out the grating and substituting walnut for the basswood. There are other problems with the kit which I will cover later.

 

More to come

Edited January 13, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Jay, it might be easier just to tie them at this point. I found that the bent tweezers worked on getting to the hard to reach lines.

Bill, I agree if my hands were not as old and clumsy. I tried several approaches and tying was one (with bent tweezers), But the knots slipped or the line was too loose. I'll try to show the results with the contact cement approach later.

[robnbill]

Well best of luck. You have done excellent work to date on your ship. I look forward to following you as you complete it. Your technique for making flags saved my bacon when the flag that came with the kit tore. As a bonus, it allowed me to make the correct flag rather than the one supplied by Mamoli.

Edited January 13, 2015 by robnbill

[Modeler12]

Do you ever run into a situation where you have to replace a line? Here I accidentally cut a line that would be a bit hard to replace.

So, I decided to try to put in a splice, but one that would not show too much.

 

I drilled the hole through the block a bit bigger, pulled the original line through and added the new line through the block in the opposite direction. I then made sure all the tensions were as I wanted them and put a drop of CA at the top of the hole glueing both lines to the block. Then it was a matter of trimming and smoothing things out, and redo the rigging of the new section.

Notice I used a bit of CA on the end of the new line to stiffen it and make it easier to pull it through the block.
 

 

Here is the result.
The picture was taken at dusk, hence the artificial light coming from the left. Also the block in question is now turned upside down.
 

 

If you are sharp you might also see that the block is turned the wrong direction. The hole or sheave should be to the left. So maybe I will replace this one.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

I am sorry for skipping around, but my input comes and goes.
 

Suggestion 4.

When the outside of the hull looks good, leave it alone for a while. Let's look at the deck.

I wished I had planned the deck planking better and have those nice scarf joints along the border. There should be a 'wide plank' for the border and then some neat looking joint as you go along. Most of this will be hidden by the gun carriages, but there will be areas near the bow that show. Look at the plans and plan !!!

 

Suggestion 5.

The gun carriages are neat to build. They add lots of interest. To put the blocks that came with the kit would destroy that image! They are square, the wrong size and look plain ugly!

Get better blocks for the gun tackles. Somewhere I showed the difference on this log.
That also means using 'rope' of the correct size (or close to it). Which in turn means drilling the holes in those new blocks a bit bigger and also to add a drop of AC to the end of the rigging line to make it stiff so you can go through those tiny holes a bit easier.

[GLakie]

Love these suggestions Jay. Please keep them coming.   For sure you're right about those blocks especially. Those are definitely poorly manufactured. Chuck has some really nice ones on his site.

 

Cheers

[CaptainSteve]

Jay,

I recall when I first came to this site and the debate that was ongoing over Bob and his Lauck St Shipyard site. At that time, I was seriously considering joining and paying for his practicum.

However, as I read more and more of the builds done by you, Geoff, Jeff, Bob and others I came to see that I could learn far more from you guys and save money, at the same time.

I'm glad I didn't end up paying for the privilege ... for one thing, I know my own personality, and I know (with almost certainty) that I would have come to loggerheads with the management at LSS.

[Modeler12]

Suggestion 6.

Keep your hand off those outside port lids and other details. They may give you an idea what it will look like, but too many will be a hindrance later on. If you have to, do a couple and see if they survive the rubbing and onslaught of your rigging operations. 

Add outside details for last when it can be done without several 'repairs' (and I have done enough of those!).

 

Suggestion 7.

When mounting the fife-rails to the deck, don't stop by simply glueing them to the deck with CA or even epoxy. There will be lots of upward tension on them when you do the rigging. The best way is to make the legs of those parts longer and have them go below deck (which is the way they are on real ships). Another way is to attach some wire to the bottom of each and have that go below with epoxy).
I had two of them pull straight off the deck when rigging. To repair them I drilled a small hole in the bottom of the post and a matching hole in the deck. A brass wire (similar diameter) was then glued into both of them with more epoxy and some dead weight to hold it in place.

 

Suggestion 8.

Make the tiller the way I show it. Mr. Hunt was really up-a-creek on this one. He suggested to use styrene sheet and cut the supports to that complicated shape. A better way is to follow the plan and bend some wood for part of the frame (I think I showed that somewhere on this log).

 

Suggestion 9. This one belong towards the top.

Almost every eye-bolt you install should be there with epoxy and not CA glue to hold them in place. I ran some experiments with parts made with steel, brass, blackened eye-bolts, etc. and every time I was able to bend the metal before the epoxy gave out. Not so with the CA; some pulled out without much resistance.

This is a real nuisance when you find out that the line you were attaching to that eye-bolt pulled right out (line, hook and sinker).

Of course, you all know how to mix and apply a small dab of epoxy?!?!!! And, yes, they take longer to grab and cure, but for eye-bolts that generally is not a problem. For really strong bonds, let it cure at least overnight.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

About suggestion 7. 

Here is what I had. Simple, neat, but too weak.
With some upward forces on the lines that are tied to the belaying pins, the whole thing lifted up off the deck. The glue simply was not strong enough.

Fix?  Extend some or all of the posts into the deck below or attach an extension to the bottom of the posts that go into the deck. That goes for several other places.

 

Obviously this picture was taken before I realized that I would have a problem during the rigging.

If I had only thought about this before hand!!!

Edited January 14, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Suggestion 11.

Try to learn and use soldering and/or brazing techniques to make the various metal parts come together. That sounds easy and it really is. It requires a few inexpensive tools, lots of practice and mistakes, but, in the long run, you will find it to be rewording and fun to try. I only burnt two fingers four times!!!

I even put a video together about some of this:

 

Let me think some more!

[texxn5]

Thanks for keeping us all updated Jay, it really helps keep us all focused especially all of your documented videos and detailed explanations....greatly appreciated.

[JSGerson]

This is the good stuff!!