How to tie a block to a spar so it sits parallet to the spar

[Captain Al]

I hope the title to this topic explains my question.  This keeps coming up and I can't figure it out.  When I've stropped a block (any type) the knot at the bottom of it wants to sit in a particular way (for example, a reef knot sitting parallel to the face of the block).  But if I want the block to sit on a spar with the face of the block perpendicular to the spar, I can't figure out how to tie it onto the spar.  I've been relying on the lashing to be able to twist 90 degrees.  Is there a better way?  A particular knot that would end up perpendicular to the face of the block rather than parallel to it? 

[druxey]

A knot won't do what you want. You have to do it the way it was actually done. The block is stropped and then lashed to the yard. That way it will orient correctly. Check any standard book on rigging to see this.

[Captain Al]

So essentially you're saying that the stropping needs to have an eye in it for the lashing to go through?

[druxey]

That is correct: an eye splice (or reasonable facsimile) at each end of the strop. The strop is passed around the block and seized in. Then the legs of the strop pass around the spar and a lashing made between the eyes. 

 

The photograph shows a fore yard in the process of fitting out. Although you can't see the lashed strops, you can see that the blocks are correctly oriented, even before adjusting. Tedious work? Yes, but it gives a good result.

Edited June 19, 2015 by druxey

[popeye2sea]

Druxey,

 

How did you lash your bunt and leech line blocks so that the sheave is perpendicular to the yard?  When I pass a rose lashing through the eyes of a strop around the yard the sheave always ends up parallel to the yard like your sheet, lift, tye, and quarter blocks.  I know that a double strop like a jeer block will make the sheave perpendicular, but that seems incorrect for small blocks.  Do you use a thimble (or eye) lashed to the yard, then the eye of the block lashed to it?

 

Regards,

[druxey]

Henry: A quarter turn twist will do it, if you've seized the strop and block. (If it is reluctant, wetting the seizing will tame the beast!)

[Modeler12]

Have a look at this video:

[Captain Al]

Thanks guys for your replies.  Very helpful.  As you said Druxey, tedius but worth the effort.

[Captain Al]

Since you guys have been so helpful, maybe you could give me some advice on my "bees of bowsprit."  I'm attaching a couple pictures of the steeve section of the bowsprit so far.  The bees have not yet been glued on.  They're being held in place by the shaft of the sheaves which I deliberately left extended so I could use them for support.  Anyway, I don't know what more to do with the bees.  I can't figure out the plans.  If there are more eyebolts or rings to attach to the bees I'd like to find out before I glue on the bees as it will be much easier.  Maybe you could take a look at the attached drawings and give me some direction.  In the drawings, 492 is the bees themselves. 281 is a 4mm sheave which I've put in.  342 is a single block and 75 is a ring.  74 an eyebolt.  I see these parts on the drawings, but can't decipher the two different view and determine where things go -- do they go on the bees or on the cap?  Anything would help.  I failed mechanical drawing in grade school and haven't gotten much better at it since.

[popeye2sea]

On the cap:  Looks like you have two eyebolts per side on the sides of the cap, near the top and bottom.  The lower one on each side has a single block.  On the after side of the cap there is an eye bolt on either side of the jib boom with a single block

The martingale (if there is to be one) will be clamped to the lower fore side of the cap.

The man rope is seized around the jib boom aft of the cap

The jackstaff will be fitted to the upper side of the cap

 

On the bees:  Looks like a ring bolt on each side, forward of the sheave on the port side and aft on the starboard.  There is a block on the starboard eyebolt. I assume there would be one to port also?

A single block is lashed to the jib boom above and between the sheaves on the bees.

 

You have two deadeyes or hearts for the bobstays lashed to the bottom of the bowsprit forward and aft of the saddle.  The one aft of the saddle comes between the saddle and the lashing for the jib boom

The hearts for the forestay and preventer forestay are lashed atop the bowsprit against their cleats.

There is another pair of deadeyes or hearts lashed forward of the heart for the stay.

On the after set of cleats there are a pair of single blocks lashed to the upper sides of the bowsprit forward of the heart for the stay.

 

On the outer end of the jib boom it looks like there are four deadeyes or hearts.  Two to the side and two lower.  These are for the jib boom guys and shrouds.  Above them are the hook and block for the jib sail and traveler.  Forward of them but inside the man rope is another block lashed above the jib boom.  Three quarters out along the jib boom another block is lashed above the boom.  I am not sure what part number 332 denotes.

Edited June 20, 2015 by popeye2sea

[Captain Al]

Darn, I did something and erased my whole reply to you Popeye.  So here goes again -- thank you so much!! This gives me what I needed to proceed.  I am only quizzical as to one item -- the 4 eyebolts on the cap -- two on each side, top and bottom.  The one's at the top -- could that just be the label 488 you're seeing (488 being the cap itself)?  That's how I have seen it til now, but then again, why did I post the question in the first place?  A 332 is a becket for blocks and double blocks.  I'm not sure why this one block in the drawing has 332 labeled when to me it looks like all the other lashings.  Perhaps its the becket through which the lashings go?  A lot of my problem with reading these plans is that they label stuff in one place only and assume you will identify all the other places for the same part visually.  That has led me to question whether virtually everything on a ship is symmetrical and is it a good assumption that if something is shown on star. side its also going to be on port?  Works 99% of the time but not invariably.  I'll have to look up 'martingale' since I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this kit.  Thanks for complicating matters --LOL.  Could it be the sea-bird that sits on top of the jackstay?  No that would be the albatross.

[popeye2sea]

Perhaps I am off base with the part 488, I assumed it was the part number for an eyebolt because the top down view seems to suggest two additional eyebolts slightly offset from where the blocks are on the cap sides.

 

As I mentioned, there may not be a martingale on this ship.  The deadeyes at the end of the jib boom suggest one.  Does the ship have a spritsail yard? Or do the jib boom guys go down to the stem?

[Captain Al]

They go to the stem.  I've looked up what a martingale is and now I'm pretty sure there isn't one.  I'll consult McKay as well.  I do thank you for your help.  I'm also looking closely at that 488 issue and will try to resolve that.  I suppose I could always add the additional eyebolts when and if they are needed.  I doubt if I'll be able to have all my blocks everywhere ready to rig when the time comes.  And I'll probably find I've put some in the wrong places.  I was warned that rigging the Bounty was beyond a novice's skill level but I went ahead with this build anyway.  We shall see.  So far the structural construction has gone quite well despite some major hurdles.  See my build log if you're interested.  I'd appreciate any commentary and suggestions. 

[Dwaing]

Captain Al
Do not believe anyone who says the Bounty rigging is too difficult for a novice.  My first wood ship was a Mantua kit of the Bounty which I still have after completing it over 60 years ago. :)All the rigging still looks ok, and now I even know the purpose of each line and rope, however when I built her I had no clew .

[Captain Al]

I love puns Dwaing.  Good one.  I'm doing everything I can to learn how to put a becket on to a block without wasting all the good kit supplied thread I have.  I think this is the more difficult thing for me.  If I can see a good picture or drawing (pix are better for me) then eventually I'll figure out where things go.  I thought I had a handle on terminology from owning my own boat, but this stuff is way beyond what I needed to know re modern sailing vessels.

[Captain Al]

My original question seems to have been lost in all this, so I'll hop back a few posts and see if I can summarize what I've learned.  I was inquiring as to how you make a block sit parallel to a boom rather than perpendicular to it.  Druxey provided the answer right off the bat.... you need an eye at the bottom of the block in order to make it sit parallel.  What I guess I lost was that to sit perpendicular, no eye (or becket) is needed.  To sit perpendicular to the boom, all that seems to be needed is for the stropping to have 2 pigtails which wrap around the boom (question: how many times?) and are lashed together.  Now, for the lazy builder (not saying I'm one of those) would it be acceptable to just knot the two pigtails under the boom?  Maybe a reef knot (square knot) with a dab of CA?  And does this mean that the tip of the block is actually contacting the boom? 

 

To sit the block parallel, you need to strop the block leaving an eye in the bottom.  Then a lashing is passed through the eye and wrapped around the boom as before.  Again, the pigtails  might be tied off or lashed together.  This way there is no contact between the wooden block and the wooden boom, cause the becket or eye is between them.

 

I've unskillfully sketched this out.  See pix below.  Am I getting warm or still missing some things?  Once I have it in theory I can continue to practice applying it.

 

[Captain Al]

OK, strike that question about block contacting boom.  I think I figured out how to avoid that.  I've seized the stropping between the boom and the block to create a bit of a cushion for the block to sit on.  Then I wrapped the pigtails of the stropping around the boom.  Is this correct?  See pic...

[Dan Vadas]

Looks OK Al. You've got the seizing pretty near perfect.

 

I've worked out a pretty easy "cheat" for tying the smaller blocks that don't have eyes in their strops.

 

1. Simply tie a single overhand knot around the spar with the knot part on the opposite side to the block. Only pass each end of the strop around the spar ONCE.

 

2. Brush liberally with slightly diluted PVA. Trust me, the glue will hold perfectly well without the need for a more complex knot.

 

3. Let the glue dry thoroughly.

 

4. Last trim the tails carefully on a sharp angle almost parallel to the strop with a SHARP Xacto or scalpel. The end result looks like the strop has been spliced around the yard . Look carefully at the top of the strop in the pic below to see what I mean :

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 Danny

[Captain Al]

Darn it Dan....I thought there was no cheating goin on around here.  As usual, simple seems to be best.  Thanks a ton.

 

I'm thinking of a way to make a continuous loop out of thread without actually splicing it to itself.  Do you think this would work --- cross the two ends over each other forming the loop.  Then wrap each end through the loop several times -- each one wraps in opposite direction, spreading these wraps along the loop (ie the wraps aren't bunched tightly together).  Then coat with glue.

 

I take it you prefer diluted PVA to CA when gluing down knots and other applications to thread.  Is this because it dries less rigid or because of the color change the CA usually causes?  Or maybe just cause its cleaner to work with? 

 

I always appreciate your attention to my problems and foibles.  Thanks Dan.

[Dan Vadas]

Hi Al,

 

There is more "cheating" going on than you can imagine . I don't regard it as cheating if the end result looks like the "real thing".

 

Your idea if making a continuous loop is pretty much the way I do it .

 

Regarding PVA - all of the above . CA just doesn't do the job, plus it's too unpredictable as regards drying time - most times it doesn't give you any time to "work" a knot. Another plus for PVA is that it allows you to easily undo a knot (using Isopropyl or just plain water) if you need to make a later adjustment.

 

 Danny

[wq3296]

Greetings Folks,

 

Depending on scale I drill a small hole through the middle of the spar parallel to the way the block will sit. Then, I run the strop (i.e. thread tied around the block) through the hole in the spar and make one full wrap on each side of the block, glue the end down and trim it flush. The block will lay tight to the spar and the hole is hidden. Much easier and a lot less drama.

 

wq3296

[Captain Al]

I don't think I'm getting it wq,  I understand the process you're using and it probably makes for a secure block to spar attachment.  But I can't see how a hole through which the two pigtails of stropping go through does anything to align the block either parallel or perpendicular to the spar.  Also, after you've come through the hole and wrap around the spar, you will be tying the know on top of the spar next to the block rather than underneath the spar -- unless you've wrapped twice, which Dan says (in all caps) is not to be done. 

 

Maybe the easiest answer is what I knowingly did on some of my cannon rigging.  Instead of stropping the block at all I put an eyebolt into it and oriented the eye so the block would hold in the orientation I needed.  I should have at least painted on some fake stropping around the block, but I didn't.  First build; can't think of everything.

[wq3296]

Greetings Cap...

 

See Dan's note #1. He says to pass EACH part of the strop around the spar. This is the same as I am saying, only AFTER you pass the two parts of the strop through the hole. The small knot at the top of the block to form the strop is unavoidable, and can be glued over the hole after the strop parts are passed for one turn easch around the spar, thereby fixing the block to the spar. Hey, it works for me.

 

wq3296

[Captain Al]

Got it re each pigtail going around one full turn to knot on the bottom.  Thanks for that reminder.  I've already tied on two blocks to my bowsprit only going around half turn each and knotting on the bottom -- and it does look a bit flimsy.

 

As for the block sitting on the spar with its face parallel or perpendicular to the spar.... other than an eye at the bottom of the stropping and then an independent lashing running through the eye and around the spar, I haven't found a way to make the block face parallel to the spar.  Does your hole in the spar method address that at all? 

[wq3296]

Greetings Cap...

 

Yes - keep in mind that the hole in the spar should ALWAYS be parallel to the face of the block. The advantage of the hole is that it allows you to pull the block up tight to the spar. Just before the block is cinched up, a small drop of CA glue on the knot will ensure that stays put. The hole may be a compromise, but at the small scale we usually work at it is acceptable to me. Let's face it, by the time you make up the block as they may have done on the actual ship, the lashings are so far out of scale that the whole assembly looks FUBAR. 

 

wq3296

[Captain Al]

I see what you're doing now.  I couldn't figure out how a round hole would make any difference (and actually it doesn't) to how the pigtails lie once they are down through the holes.  But now what I guess you're saying is that after you tie them up you twist the block 90 degrees to make it sit parallel to the spar and then you drop the glue in which holds it in that position.  I agree entirely about the scale etc. 

[Dan Vadas]

I agree entirely about the scale etc.

 

 

I don't :

 

 

 Danny

[Captain Al]

I think I should retract my initial agreement. What I was meaning to say was that I had a hard time distinguishing between .15mm and .25mm thread and I think I sometimes use one instead of the other and then once on the blocks I can't remember or tell which is which. The example shown -- is that an example of good scale or poor scale? It looks good to me. Tell me, when putting thread around a block, should the thread extend a bit above the groove, lay perfectly level with the surface of the block, or fall a tad bit into the groove? As I said, this pic looks good to me and it seems the rope is just slightly higher than the groove it sits in.

[Dan Vadas]

Hi Al,

 

The example shown -- is that an example of good scale or poor scale?

 

 

It's pretty good scale, except that I've rounded off my blocks a little too much in one direction. These blocks are only 3mm (top)and 3.5mm. The rope is 0.3mm from Syren Ship Models.

 

should the thread extend a bit above the groove, lay perfectly level with the surface of the block, or fall a tad bit into the groove?

 

 

A bit of both, depending on which part of the groove the strop is lying in. To explain take a look at this pic of blocks under construction (not my work ). Note the shape of the "groove" :

 

 

 Danny

[Captain Al]

Great answer Danny. And thanks for referencing Syren as a supplier for thread. I'll soon be in need. I assume they have a web site. If you're using .3mm thread on blocks that are 3 or 3.5mm, then the thread I've been using (suggested by the kit's plans and parts list) of .15 and .25 are a tad small -- particularly the .15. I think I relegate the .15 stuff to lashings and go with the .25 on 3mm blocks until I can get

something bigger (and darker in color).