1812 Period Guns/Carronade Configuration

[robnbill]

This was in my build log, but I thought I would ask this in this forum as well. I have completed the prototypes for the Brig Eagle Guns. I need to move the trunnion holes down a bit on the long gun. I drilled them on centerline and afterwards saw they would be lower on the barrel.

I do have a question on the Carronade. Should it have an elevation thread in the pommel? Most of the drawings I have seen of the carronades have them. While Crisman doesn't show a diagram of the guns in his thesis or in his last book, the first book on the Eagle shows the carronade with a ring for the breeching line and just a quoin. Since nothing was found in the wreck on any of this, the carronades should follow that done in the period on the American fleet. The Constitution's 32 pound carronades only have quoins BUT they are also mounted with trunnions.


The long gun also appears to have a ring for the breeching line where the Connie's did not.

Thoughts?

 

 

[mtaylor]

Bill,

I'd say go with the quoin on the carronades.  They did have locks though as Crisman mentions the difficulty in securing them.    The guns were taken off after the war and before the ship was sunk to "preserve it".   Re-read the battle area.... I vaguely recall something about quoins be set just prior to opening fire.... a vignette type of thing.

 

The cannon trunnions were off-center...  I think (and might be wrong) is that the top of the trunnion was at the centerline of the bore.  What I've seen some do is just make the carriage a wee bit taller rather than trying to re-machine or re-make new cannon. 

[robnbill]

Thanks. Since the long gun was a prototype I will drill the barrels on the others off center. Having the top align with the centerline does make sense.

[robnbill]

You are evil!!! Reminding me what i had convieniently forgot. The gun locks. While i can find numerous photos of what one lookied like, how it is attached to the barrel is another. They all seem to have smaller holes through their sides. Was there a plate that they bolted to and it bolted to the cannon? What was the purpose of the plate other than holding the lock? Did it provide a tray for the loose powder that led the flame down to the hole? How far away from the hole was it mounted?

 

I am interesting in building it, but i need more sepcifics before i can do it well.

 

Hopefully someone here is the gun flintlock guru!

Edited August 18, 2015 by robnbill

[jbshan]

Gun locks had a lead sheet cover to protect them from the weather.  See pics of HMS Victory guns.

[druxey]

Only early carronades (1780-c.1795) had trunnions. Later models had 'joints' or lugs underneath. There were many changes in their design over the first 20 or so years. The elevating screw was a later development. You should be safe using a quoin.

[robnbill]

Gun locks had a lead sheet cover to protect them from the weather.  See pics of HMS Victory guns.

saw the lead covers on the Vistory. I also saw one very grainy photo showing the lock attached to the gun. However, all of the shots of locks I found both there and elsewhere, only showed the lock off the gun, or the right side of it. on some it was clear they had bolts going through from the right side into something. From some of the distant shots this appeared to be a pan. I scoured the net looking for a shot of that pan attached to a gun and lock. 

[JohnE]

Hi Bill,

Found some stuff from the antique artillery collector folks.

 

First is a gunlock recovered from the wreck of HMS Colossus (ca 1790), sitting atop a gun from the ship, for comparison. Note the size of the touch hole peeking out at the back corner of the gunlock. Presumably the lock would be mounted to the side of the touch hole and the hole aligned with the pan orifice.

 

Next are British and Russian gunlocks from 1838, but the principle is the identical.  They discharge to the side through the downward aperture to the touchhole. According to Fred Stevens at International Military Antiques, this discharge is often further channeled by a brass plate (cup shaped hood) that surrounds the distal side of the touch hole. This could be what you are seeing as a “pan”.

 

He remarks that it was also used to hold an extra dollop of priming powder (so that ‘something’ would ignite the priming quill), or make it easier to prime the piece (make a nice drain) from a gunner’s powder horn, if necessary. Some hoods were hinged to make it easier to get at the touch hole with a new priming quill, or with a worm, if there was a screw up somewhere. Unfortunately, no photos or drawings, but hope this helps some. 

John

 

[shiloh]

Have read that trunions set below the C/L of the bore were found to be very hard on the carrage and was not standard practice for long. Trunnions at C/L would allow the forces to start the carrage movement without the downward thrust of the breach and lifting force at the trunion.that trunions below C/L would cause. Believe that Carronades with trunions were called Cannonades.

jud

[robnbill]

Thanks for everyone's input and pointers to more information regarding the cannon/carronades and gun locks. It has been greatly appreciated. I will have to investigate the practice around the time on where the trunnions were located. I believe the TFFM also recommends below centerline, but that was for the Swan Class which were build a few decades before the Eagle.  I will make the cannonades with no elevator screws.

 

However, as Mark pointed out, the gun locks were part of the Eagle. I did find in my searching a wonderful article from a publication called Arms Collecting, Vol 36, No. 4 dated November 1998. The piece was called "Enoch Hidden and His Cannon Locks" written by Frederick C. Gaede. Enoch Hidden had the contract to deliver the gun locks not only for the Lake Champlain fleet, but to the entire Navy. He mentions that the Connie certainly had gun locks installed during the Java in 1812. 

 

I do find it interesting as widespread as these were they seem almost ephemeral. It seems that by 1800 most ships had them. Certainly the British and US fleets so I suspect the other Navy's. However, looking at all the photos of cannons I could last night, there were extremely few that still had the locks attached including the one from JohnE (thanks). I found one of a French lock that was attached to the rear of the cannon. Some photos show at least a subset of the cannons on the Victory have them installed. Additionally number of photos show the lead covers so I assume, perhaps wrongly,  that they are underneath those as well. There are also a number of the locks both antique and reproductions available for collectors.

 

Hidden did not patent his locks so nothing concrete is known about the locks he provided the burgeoning Navy. However his later designs, some of which still exist, closely followed the British design.   So this is probably a pretty safe bet. I also looked through what others have done.

 

However, looking at the locks, it would look like they would be about 9" x 4" x 1". This would equate to about 5 x 2 x 0.5mm at my scale. I have not been able to come up with a method to recreate these to do justice to them or the rest of the ship. So this might be one detail too far. I will continue to play with it since it will be awhile before any cannon get mounted to the ship. I really would like to add them, providing I can come up with a way do it justice. 

 

As always, any input is always appreciated.

[mtaylor]

Bill,

 

I've seen locks in photo-etch but I don't know if there's any available in 1:48.  At one point, I think Admiralty Models offered a set but I see that they aren't offering photo-etch any more.

[druxey]

TFFM refers to trunnions on long guns, not carronades.

[robnbill]

Thanks Mark. At this point, I think I would pass on them anyway since nothing else has been purchased in near finished form for the ship and I hope not to have too. The cannon were my last big hurdle. I know I can make rope I just need to get a suitable ropewalk. The masts, etc, I made on the Connie so I know I can turn those. Now you do raise a good point though. I know there are home etching solutions. I have never tried one. I will have to look into that.

 

Druxey, thanks for the clarification. I did sort of run two thoughts together. I was researching the trunnions for the long guns and the elevating screw for the carronades. For the Eagle, Crisman showed the Carronades mounted on a central hinge underneath the barrel as you said. That is what I was testing. My question regarding the carronade was if I should use an elevator screw or not. I think I will follow your advice as well on that and not include one. 

[druxey]

I think elevating screws were coming in around that time, but one supposes older models of carronade were probably still in use. An exception was a 68lb carronade from New York of 1782 which is illustrated with a screw elevating device (Caruana) 

[robnbill]

I ordered the Micro-Mark Pro-Etching kit and set to work trying to make the gun locks. I will not go into the processes to make them, I will over that in the log. I ended up with a lock that is about 1.5" thick which is about right given the ones I have seen on the web. I used multiple layers of brass to give a more 3d appearance with the thicker plate in the center.

 

I also made a jig to align the trunnion holes moving them below centerline. I also have put together the plans for the carriages so my next step will be to complete a carronade barrel then construct at least one with carriages of each. This will allow me to assess the amount of decking I want to install and confirm whether or not I want to only have guns on one side.

 

Thanks you all for you input into this process. I know I have a better cannon for it.

 

The first shot below shows  a test on the prototype gunlocks. It had the same thickness plates for all the pieces. The remaining shots are of the first real long gun barrel that will be installed on the ship.  It has the gunlock configuration as described above. I left the trunnions long until I finish the carriage and confirm the lengths. Then I will shorten.

[grsjax]

I do find it interesting as widespread as these were they seem almost ephemeral. It seems that by 1800 most ships had them. Certainly the British and US fleets so I suspect the other Navy's. However, looking at all the photos of cannons I could last night, there were extremely few that still had the locks attached including the one from JohnE (thanks). I found one of a French lock that was attached to the rear of the cannon. Some photos show at least a subset of the cannons on the Victory have them installed. Additionally number of photos show the lead covers so I assume, perhaps wrongly,  that they are underneath those as well. There are also a number of the locks both antique and reproductions available for collectors.

 

The locks were only mounted to the guns when ready for action.  Few pictures were taken when the guns were about to be fired so it isn't suprising that there are few pictures showing them.