Stockholm Tar

[BANYAN]

Many discussions have been held on MSW about this substance as used for preserving standing rigging in sailing ships of yesteryear. 

In looking for some information I came across this:  has anyone tried this for rigging?  Is it the same basic composition?

http://www.europasaddlery.com/stockholm-tar-500ml.html

 

and this one which is specifically for rope preservation

https://shop.classic-boat-supplies.com.au/boat-building-maintenance/general/stockholm-tar-preservative/

 

Also, some time ago, one of our Russian modellers posted a formula/solution they used to simulate this on scale rigging.  By any chance has anyone made a copy of that discussion/formula as it no longer appears in MSW (well that I could find anyway)

 

cheers

 

Pat

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I painted pinetar on my Yawl Dulcibella shrouds last week, check out my build log. I got my tar from the rigging job I worked on last summer where we were SLINGING tar. We had a 55 gallon drum of it. In the past I had looked into the source and in the United States it's from a company called  Natrochem. But I'm fairly certain they're wholesalers and you won't get a smaller amount than 55gallons. The product I actually see in gallon and quart cans in stores is this one : http://www.shop.com/BICKMORE+083376+4+25+x+4+25+x+4+88+Pine+Tar+Quart-919940759-p+.xhtml?sourceid=298&CAWELAID=120179650000148722&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=35808311682&CATCI=pla-67778834022&catargetid=120179650030268109&cadevice=t&gclid=CMrasZCF5dICFZGCswodemoJ6Q  but a google search reveals many other sources. Pine tar is used in sadelry and horseback riding circles so it's to be had in tack shops or perhaps rural farming stores? It's an historic skin care product too and you can get creams and soap made with pinetar but it's been diluted into soap and skin creams in those instances. I'm sure the two products shown in the above post are the real unadulterated pine tar and to me it looks like a good price. Pine tar takes a long time to dry. Or does it really ever dry at all? It reliquifies on very hot days and starts to drip again, but on a model this won't be an issue. Still, it's going to remain sticky for a long time time, longer than oil based paint takes to dry for a certainty. I diluted my tar in turpentine and dabbed it onto my shrouds with a q-tip. I put it on a week or so ago and it's still slightly greasy, I can pinch the shroud and get a very slight smear on my fingers that way.

[BANYAN]

Thanks very much for that great feedback and info JCF; much appreciated.  Sounds like I may be able to use this stuff in lieu of trying to find and make up the Russian concoction.  The second link I had shown in the first post is an Aussie outlet, but there would be so much of it I think it would satisfy the rigging needs of all our club members for the rest of their building lives  

 

"Slinging tar" - love the vision that implies   

 

I'll have a look in your latest build to see how you applied it; but one quick question, did you dilute it any for better penetration of scale rope?

 

cheers

 

pat

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Yah I mixed it very approximately 3 parts Tar to 1 part turpentine. Without being diluted it's got the consistency of honey. 

[Jaager]

The color of the pine tar looks to me like Walnut.

In another thread here,  EdT  recommended:

Liberon VDC250G 250g Van Dyck Crystals

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/12532-rigging-stain/#comment-382312

  The darkness of the dye

is a concentration dependent result. 

The pine tar effect should be obtained by a high concentration of the

dye.  The result should be a quick drying and wax accepting line.

 

Using actual tar looks like it involves unnecessary problems.  Never drying

and sticky makes it a dust magnet and a bear to clean up.

 

The graphic above re-enforces the suitability of Walnut as a simulation of the

tar used on standing rigging and a very dilute version as a dye for running rigging.

[BANYAN]

Thanks JCF, that might be the way I go also as this will leave a residue in the lay lines very similar to the real thing (on a bigger scale); a dye simply colours the thread.

 

Thanks for the link Jaager; Ed has some very interesting techniques worth exploring.  If the Stockholm tar proves to messy or attracts too much dust this will certainly be worth a try.  I think I will do a few samples and leave them exposed for a while to see how they handle heat and humidity as JCF inferred they might get greasy in hot weather, and also to see how much dust may accumulate over time.

 

Thanks again for the feedback guys.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Yes tar is not paint! I only included it in my model as an eccentricity or a nod to the culture of historic ships, not because it's a practical ingredient for a display model. My model will go into a case but if it wasn't intended for hermetic protection I'd never use tar on it.

[trippwj]

For an interesting discussion of the history and production of pine tar (same stuff, generic name) during the day of hemp, see https://maritime.org/conf/conf-kaye-tar.htm

 

The utility on model shrouds and standing rigging is at best marginal - the scaling of the lines (and the material used) will likely result in a change to the accuracy of the hue relative to the material.  It also is potentially a source of frustration over time as it could become a great dust attractant and collector, as well as occasional liquification and dripping onto otherwise clean woodwork.  I am not sure if anyone has taken samples of rigging from contemporary models to determine the nature of the compound used to obtain the tinting.  Would be an interesting analysis!

 

 

[jbshan]

As another source, Swix® the cross-country ski wax people make pine tar for wooden skiis.  You smear it on, let dry for a while, then burn off the excess.  Sound familiar?

Burnt Umber paint, I use artists' acrylics, is very close to the pine tar/walnut color we are looking for.  It can of course be thinned a bit for lines that haven't yet gotten twenty coats of tar, that are merely dirty.  You might also find walnut ink.  Being artists' supplies, these should have longevity enough for the worst of the purists.

[Roger Pellett]

Japan dryer is a chemical additive used to accelerate the drying of paint.  I have no idea how it works but its been around for a long time.  It is a key ingredient in the linseed oil based filler that canoe restorers mix up to fill the weave in the canvas covering of wood canvas canoes. An ounce mixed into a gallon of the linseed oil mix causes the fill to dry to a hard sandable surface.  It is readily available in pints at paint and home improvement stores.

 

 I don't know how it would react with Frankie's pine tar, but a drop or two added to the tar turpentine mix might improve its drying characteristics.

 

Roger

[BANYAN]

Hey thanks guys, some very interesting discussion and feedback to my initial question.  The lessons I draw to date are:

1.  Tar may not be a great idea no matter how realistic

2.  A Walnut type colour should be what we aim for.

3.  Artist supplies are a good resource.

 

That said, I will still do a sample and see how it goes with time.  from all that has been said however it sounds like it is not a great option for a model unless to achieve a specific purpose (e.g. JCF's build).  My experiment will primarily be to determine/confirm the colour and effect to be achieved to match the real stuff on a hemp coloured line/thread.

 

many thanks again

 

Pat

 

 

[Chuck Seiler]

How about Sepia ink?  or Sepia mixed with a little basic brown?

[Jim Lad]

Just caught up with this thread, Pat.

 

Why not simply use an appropriately coloured thread and avoid the hassle?

 

John

[BANYAN]

Hi John, thaks for looking in mate.  To date I have been making my own rope (usually white or unbleached cotton) and applying RIT dye using salt in the mixture to ensure colour fastness.  

 

My question was prompted by some research I am doing for a shop note I am putting together for some club members.  In a recent workshop I conducted , I was asked a couple of questions relating to the colour of rigging and what was Stockholm Tar.  The discussion then went onto why not use it?  At that point I had not been aware that it was available commercially as it only came up in one of my internet searches.   I was aware of the concoctions that some Russian modellers had used on their prize winning models (via MSW1) and, if I recall correctly, they did not seem to have the associated dripping or greasy consequences from their solution, and the result looked very realistic.  I thought it might bear further investigation soooo .....

 

At the moment I use a mixture of RIT fabric dye mixing  Dark Brown with a bit of Black.  Some of the  suggestions put forward merit some further testing I think.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Shooting photos of things that are colored black dark grey or dark brown always brings you up against the built in limitations of the camera and films ability to capture and represent subtleties. But I shot a blob of tar next to a blob of Liquitex brand Acrylic Burnt Umber. As you can see I smeared them into the absorbent paper. The paint has more color than the tar, but they are pretty close. When dry the colors will undergo a slight change too, but not much. And as mentioned before, many layers of tar are going to have a different tone too.

[BANYAN]

Thanks JCF, those are very helpful.  Looks like I need to pick up some burnt umber to experiment with

 

cheers

 

Pat

[jbshan]

Walnut ink is closer to the 'tar' color in those swatches.  It lacks the redness shown in the burnt umber samples, but isn't quite as available.  Perhaps, as suggested in one of the posts, a 'sepia' might get you there, but I don't know if you'll find it in an acrylic paint.  I don't think you want to use watercolor or guache, an opaque water color.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Joel, Another to try   I agree, i wish to stay away from washes and the like - I'll do a bit of a search to see if I can get some.

 

cheers

 

Pat