Le Soleil Royal by Nek0 - 1/72 - Marc Yeu

[CRI-CRI]

Hi, dear specialists of old french ships

 

I were curious to know your opinions on historic restitution of the Saint-Philippe 1693 by Lemineur (Ancre ed.)

 

It seems to me that the monograph shows a sister-ship of the Soleil Royal, which is... an unknown model, a copy of an imaginary vessel  😀

 

Interesting work, but without any historic pretention

 

Regards,

 

Chris   

[Bill Morrison]

Credible representations are what the hobby is about.   Marc is building a fantastic conversion of the Heller kit and painting it in an interesting and beautiful fashion!  His model might or might not be a specific ship, but it certainly appears to be a French ship-of-the line, which he has based on credible plans.  CRI-CRI is doing the same, as is the other Marc in France.  Does this answer the question about belaying pins?

 

We have conflicting information.  Lees states explicitly that belaying pins first came into use around 1750. Was he talking specifically about English ships?  Does he include French practice?  Marc in NYC has provided some references about French warships of the period and paintings of Dutch ships.  Looking at what appear to be belaying pins on the Dutch ships, I would not want to try to pick them up; their tops appear as large as my head (if not larger!). The Heller 1/100 scale plastic version has molded pins on the sheer rails. Unfortunately. these are sharply pointed, shaped badly, and fragile.  Most wood plank on bulkhead kits don't seem to include them but I could be wrong.  The Artesania Latina kit includes them on fife rails, which seems incorrect. 

 

I suppose the correct answer is to go with whichever the builder believes is authentic.

 

Bill

[G. Delacroix]

You should read my message, #177 of this topic.

[Nek0]

9 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I also agree with your basic premise that the Berain/Vary drawing must exist for a reason.  From an evolutionary standpoint, this particular arrangement of the quarters is consistent with other examples that are better understood from the late 1680s/90s; lower gallery closed, middle gallery open and walkable, upper gallery a trompe l’oeil amortisement. 

 

That's exactly my point !  👍

[Nek0]

9 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

If you give 1 point for every good guess made about an 17th ship construction like Soleil Royal

and you give 1 point for every good guess for an 18th ship construction like the 74 guns

Plus, if we subtract 1 point for every wrong guess

 

Who would be the winner?

 

It depends on what you call a wrong guess. Is a choice concerning a ship a wrong guess because it never existed on this particular ship, or is a wrong guess a choice that never existed that way on any comparable ship at this time ? 

Concerning the St Philippe, M. Lemineur says that he had no information concerning the decoration of the railing sheer, so he had to compose one being inspired by what was in use at this time. I would not call it a wrong guess, you just have to be aware of this particular point and you can enjoy a credible model of what the SP should looked like. 

The 74 gunship of Jean Boudriot is also an invention, I don't remember all the details but I believe he took inspiration of a particular model in a museum that was not representative of all the 74 gunships of the time. (Anyway, he didn't give his 74 a name, so it remains generic). Concerning l'Ambitieux, he made some very weird choices with the decoration. 

The fact is you will always have more trustable sources with a ship from the 18th century than with a ship of the 17th. And there are certainly a huge amount of wrong guesses with the Soleil Royal. 

 

[Nek0]

On 3/24/2022 at 9:32 PM, Bill Morrison said:

 

I'm confused.  I thought that this is a model of the first SR but you say that she is pierced for 104 guns.  The first SR carried 110 guns, the second carried 104.  The gun displayed had to be of the first because of the sign claiming that it was off of SR in 1670, which is appropriate for the first.  The second ship wasn't built until she was started in 1692.  Could you please clarify?

 

You're right, the first SR was pierced to carry 110 guns, but as Marc stated, the number of guns did vary during his career.

 

[Bill Morrison]

Credible representations are what the hobby is about.   Marc is building a fantastic conversion of the Heller kit and painting it in an interesting and beautiful fashion!  His model might or might not be a specific ship, but it certainly appears to be a French ship-of-the line, which he has based on credible plans.  CRI-CRI is doing the same, as is the other Marc in France.  Does this answer the question about belaying pins?

 

We have conflicting information.  Lees states explicitly that belaying pins first came into use around 1750. Was he talking specifically about English ships?  Does he include French practice?  Marc in NYC has provided some references about French warships of the period and paintings of Dutch ships.  Looking at what appear to be belaying pins on the Dutch ships, I would not want to try to pick them up; their tops appear as large as my head (if not larger!). The Heller 1/100 scale plastic version has molded pins on the sheer rails. Unfortunately. these are sharply pointed, shaped badly, and fragile.  Most wood plank on bulkhead kits don't seem to include them but I could be wrong.  The Artesania Latina kit includes them on fife rails, which seems incorrect. 

 

I suppose the correct answer is to go with whichever the builder believes is authentic.

 

Bill

[Bill Morrison]

There is an interesting thread where the issue of belaying pins is discussed.  I recommend it as an interesting read.

 

introduction of belaying pins

---

By hamilton,
July 31, 2019 in Masting, rigging and sails

 

[Nek0]

The painting of the guns is finally finished. On the computer screen they appear very blue, they are a little greener in reality. Taking advantage of having all the guns painted, I did a little simulation... 110 guns is a lot of guns ! Of course they are balanced on the sill of the portholes so they are more prominent than they should be. (and the three on the forecastle are missing)

I can now continue the construction of the hull.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

This is a treat for the eyes, Marc!  I really like the pictures from above, starboard stern quarter; they really give a strong impression of the arsenal that was Soleil Royal.  Love it!

[Bill Morrison]

I love the hull dimensions and appearance, but I appreciate the different calibers of the guns most.  Few builders seem to appreciate this, but an excellent model can be spoilt by adhering to a single caliber on the gun decks and above. Impressive, Nek0!

 

Bill

[yancovitch]

in awe as always.....oh...a shot inside would be nice to solve the mystery how the guns are floating in the middle of the gunports 😀

Edited April 20, 2022 by yancovitch

[Nek0]

Hello !

Hello Vic, the guns are juste laid on the sill of the gunports, in place just for the picture, I have since removed them

Concerning the guns, I thought it might interest some of you to know how I painted them. I was inspired by the guns in front of the Strasbourg mess, as well as those that can be seen in museums. I found their patina was very elegant, not too marked, and highlighting the decorations. The difficulty is mainly related to the scale; at 1/72 the painting, even well diluted, does not behave as at 1/48 or larger scales, especially on reliefs as small as the ones on the bronze guns. So I included a picture of the guns as received, already passed through the burnisher by Alexey. Pretty but a little flashy and not homogeneous from one to the other, going from very dark to quite light. After going through the burnisher to have a very dark working base, I apply a coat of green (house mix) with an airbrush to give the dark bronze color. The airbrush makes it possible to have a very fine layer of paint which does not thicken the reliefs of the decorations. We get a very matte result. I then apply a thin coat of protective oil for metals which will protect the base during subsequent operations. The verdigris patina is then done with Citadel's "nihilakh oxide" paint. It has the consistency of a wash, and after passing it sparingly I wipe it away, leaving it only in the hollows. The final step is to rub the barrels with the shine brush of a Dremel, which will smooth the paint a little and restore the metallic aspect to the tube. It's quite difficult to take a picture of this. I tried with different lights. the last picture  is "burnt" but the color of green is the closest to what we see in real life.

That's all !

 

[Hubac's Historian]

That Citadel ver-de-gris wash is fantastic stuff!  

[yancovitch]

my gosh ...that's amazing......

[Ian_Grant]

Gee, I've been to Strasbourg twice but didn't know to go and see those cannons. Wife and kids wanted to see the astronomical clock mainly, which I had told them about from my first visit, as a bachelor on a bike trip.

 

Your guns look fantastic!!

Edited April 29, 2022 by Ian_Grant

[CRI-CRI]

Hi dear modellers !

 

I think the grey-green patine is not very realistic, a browned color must be more indicated 

 

At sea, the bronze get a cooper chloride patine, not a hydro-carbonated one :

 

 

The guns of Strasbourg (Officer's Mess near Place de la République) are under acid rains, they show the same patine with church's cooper covers

 

En français pour Marc : 

 

Cela n'enlève rien à la qualité extraordinaire de cette réalisation, c'est juste une remarque à propos d'un exemple... que je connais bien  😀 

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Nek0]

We had this discussion a thousand times, I already explained why I think a vert-de-gris patina is indicated for me, as a personal choice, but also for a model in general. 
i don’t want to have this conversation again. 
🙂

[Bill Morrison]

I am concerned that the guns at museums do not resemble guns at sea.  A sailor's life is spent cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc. and guns were well painted with black paint (at least from the late 18th century).  As a retired Senior Chief Petty Officer, I would never allow sailors under me to allow any kind of patina anywhere on my ship. However, I am not sure about the period in question. Can someone please enlighten me?

Bill

[Nek0]

Hello Bill, of course I can have this discussion with you, I just don't want to have it again with someone with who we already debated multiple times with no mutual understanding. First, yes even at sea side, bronze guns become green. Let's see some pictures of the gun of the Croisic, (from the Soleil Royal). Some old ones show a strong vert-de-gris patina. Recently it has been cleaned and polished and covered with a sort of protective sealer and even though, you can see the green color begins to show. (personnal pictures). All the pictures of bronze guns outside that undergo the weather show more or less / dark or light green color. I just picked the ones I preferred for a reference, not too strong because they had not passed 300 years under the sea, but not bright new. It's a personnal choice. My personnal choice is also motivated by the fact that the guns with no patina were not homogeneous from one to another (some very dark, others rather bright), and very tawdry. I prefer the look of the green patina, I find it marry well with the color of the wood, and especially, it makes me give them a personnal touch, a personnal work to make them really mine. (I didn't cast them, so I felt I had to do something personnal with them)

From a historic point of view, at this time it was a prestigious mark for a ship to have bronze guns, when lesser ships had iron guns. The iron guns had no decoration and indeed were painted black to protect them from corrosion. Contrary, bronze guns were not painted and were not rub because the green color was something wanted. The only reason to rub a deck is to make it stable and non slippering. Concerning the vert-de-gris on bronze, it has a protective effect (non corrosion) and was not removed. In a book "Tourville en son temps", by Jean de La Varende you can read: "douze hommes par tube de bronze aux affuts rouges, des pieces admirables, toutes de bronze vert avec les anses en forme de dauphin, les armoiries et la devise ULTIMA RATIO REGUM." And also:  "il n'était pas dans les usages de les fourbir pour faire disparaître l'oxydation".

Hope it helps !

 

 

 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Soleil Royal is looking good!

 

Nicely done on the guns!

[Nek0]

CRI removed his message (one of the things he's known for). So, to make it clear for everyone, he wrote "this is my last message about this topic", and I replied:

 

Thanks ! 👍🏻

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Nek0

[yancovitch]

and yes...when it comes down to it....it's what feel right to you.....that is of most importance.....who knows how our past lifetimes influence us if you believe in such...maybe some of us were crew, or knew that ship, and strong impressions may lay dormant in our brain...food for thought me thinks....🙂

[Hubac's Historian]

This will probably sound absurd - HOWEVER

 

I personally like to believe that my particular instant obsession with this ship when I was 8 or 9 years old is rooted in the mere possibility of past lives.  I like to think that maybe I served on this ship, or at least saw it with my living eyes.  It is a nice fantasy 😜, and why my wife refers to her as the other woman.

 

No divorce is not yet imminent; so far, it is a happy poly-amory.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Hubac's Historian

[yancovitch]

😄😄

[Nek0]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:23 PM, Hubac's Historian said:

This will probably sound absurd - HOWEVER

 

I personally like to believe that my particular instant obsession with this ship when I was 8 or 9 years old is rooted in the mere possibility of past lives.  I like to think that maybe I served on this ship, or at least saw it with my living eyes.  It is a nice fantasy 😜, and why my wife refers to her as the other woman.

 

No divorce is yet imminent; so far, it is a happy poly-amory.

 

I see what you mean. I have the same history than you with this ship since the first time I saw the Heller kit when I was a kid, and I'm attracted to it ever since. And curiously I was born on the 23 may, when vice-admiral Tourville died... on 23 may. Just a coincidence of course, but I like this wink of the fate. 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Nek0

[Hubac's Historian]

Happy Birthday, Marc!  I hope you and your family are well.

[yancovitch]

hear hear!!...or is it here here!!!.......vc

[Nek0]

Thank you very much Mark !!

Yes I'm still here, here, or not very far ! 😂 

Soleil Royal will be back soon after I complete a few things on L'Ambitieux.