SAINT PHILIPPE 1693 by Heinrich der Seefahrer - Heller - 1:92 - converted from Soleil Royale kit

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thank you all for your best wishes,  I am on track, gliding right and left a bit - but better as some other patiens in here... much better!

 

So I come back to the S-curve question that wais in the book on page 154. This S-cure was accidentialy brought in the book. Here the email from ancre.fr:

 

Christian's e-mail about board number 36 of St-Philippe.

I was able to understand that the question concerns the line in the form of a doucine, the "S line", that draws the filling between the preconception, just behind the 1st port of the 1st battery, visible at the bow of the St Philippe at page 154 of the brochure.

 

In fact, I let myself be seduced by the aesthetics of these girls that designed Jean Boudriot on the bow Boullongne. These doucines delimit the filling between pre-cepts intended to prevent the legs of the anchor to hang on it, when it is crossed to install it on the stay-stay. I found this elegant drawing.

 

But on reflection, I realized that it was a nonsense. So I corrected it. I replaced the doucines with 2 rows of curved planks that follow the gyratory movement of the anchor tabs on all DWG planks.

(...)

Curiously, the board number 36 at the scale of 1/144 which has been inserted in the brochure has kept the layout of these doucines whereas the printing in PDF was made from the same plane DWG for each of the scales.

I find no explanation for their presence on the board n ° 36 reduced to the scale of 1/144. This one is purely accidental. We just have to ignore it.

 

 

"If you do work you do errors.

If you work less you do less errors.

If you don't do any errors at all

you will be promoted."

German Saying

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

On 5/5/2019 at 4:10 PM, CaptainSteve said:

I just wish to point out that I have never read this thread, nor have I looked at any of the pictures. Whoever "liked" your posts using my log-in is a dirty rat. I'm going to hide now. Possibly in a mountain cabin. Or possibly somewhere else.

 

@CaptainSteve Where did you say you have been hiding away on the other side of the earth... hmmm...

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Dear SP-Clubers! 

Still inhappy with the bowend of the deck let us focus on something else.

The surface of the cardboard was hardly enough for the deck. It is realy a large pice of space.

Tonight the Lower Deck is in the focus.

 

By scaling downto 1/92 the planks breadth is 3mm and smaller the

mainplanks come up to 4mm. The hole decks looks quite nice and as very few light will come down into to LD the detailing graduality does not need to be too important.

 

For your information the big space the cardboard pattern does need - I circled around the original Heller part with some biro so 1/2mm will be processing encore. As my old master at thevfoundery told us:

 

"You can rasp something off but never on the workpice again!"

 

Next step: fitting in of the pattern into the hull.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello my friends,

 

as I am afraid of my lost of motiric abilities and selfconfidence by this stroke in June I am testing it on a whaleboat - now back with fresh enthusiasm to the main project and

I managed to cut out the decks pattern to try and dryfit them into the hull next week.  This cutying was less stressfull than I anticipated it to be.

 

The two halfs sould fit beside the midboard into the hull the complete deck will be nerded for some other projects bashing the Heller hull...*

 

My main question is how to get a curved end to the decks so it does fit to the transoms inside. So it might be a smart idea to get by building the tole transom first the fitting of the aft ends of all the decks. So there will be no gap between transoms bend inside and the decks convex  plankings end.

 

As you see also in here Finnegan is always right!

 

At the moment I deal with the idea of glueing the decks drawing onto the cardboard and dryfit this into the hull so I can use this result as a pattern toof plank the cut to shape Heller drecks by 0,5mm polysterol stripes. 

 

Hannial Lecter would have casted my problem in one very simple question:

First the transom than the deck or first deck than tansom?

What is your best practice proofed in the hard reality of modelshipbuilding?

_________

*I am still thinking about what to do with this fourth Hellerhull I could get from the internet a further French ship project of the 1st Navy:

ROYAL THÉRÈSE 1669 (ex PARIS)

 

But the  gundecks and wales look very straight flat and there is no front view**. And I know now I am not allowed to overuse structure for building the hull by changing too much, as it seems mamatoy to have happend to our Beglian colleague with the beautyfull RHEYNE - a project still standing still and the last pictures looked as he tryed to replace the wales by cutting them out. 

 

** very often one picture is shown as a second

 

bowside view of ROYAL THÉRÈSE  ut as the NMM writes*** it is not shure. I am still counting the guns and am not able to connecte both views together into a single side that looks in some kind believable.

*** ROYAL THÉRÈSE online article

 

Or building the hull into some model of

SAINT PHILIPPE of 1663... I'll have to figure out some better picture to decide if this may be some more helpful source than the vdV ink drawing.

[Hubac's Historian]

Here is the Royal Therese:

Winfield and Roberts have convinced me that this is so:

As for modeling the round-up of the transom - I would model the transom shape and plank up to it.

 

I’m confused as to what your approach will be, here, Chris.  Are you going to plank over the cardboard patterns with styrene strip, or are you going to cut new decks from styrene sheet and plank over those?

 

As for taking on another Heller conversion build, La Reyne is the best candidate, IMO, because she was a near sister ship to the original SR: same yard, same builder, same rate, only a year apart in construction, and with only minor differences in size and armament.

 

I think Cedric may have abandoned his model because he is un-willing to accept certain compromises in the kit architecture.  Perhaps, with all of the research he has done - and it is quite significant - he is drafting plans for a full scratch-build.  I hope he is.

 

On the other hand, if you can accept the forward sheer of the Heller wales, and if you can accept the layout of Heller’s guns, and if you can reverse engineer the older style of head rails onto the Heller architecture, then, there is no reason whatsoever that one can’t make a very satisfying facsimile of La Reyne from the Heller kit.

[Hubac's Historian]

For the sake of comparison, here is Puget’s portrait of the Paris, as she was before re-naming/decorating to the Royal Therese:

They’re obscured by the projecting side gallery, but the four round windows are present,  as R and W say.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hy Marc,

 

so your tip is to retry the REYNE as she is closest to the SR... hmmmm. Good suggestion - I will think about it. They both being close relatives is not some adrgument it is a very strong argument to vote for REYNE. 

 

 

On the other hand PARIS has had a lot of

elaborated craved wales - on the vdV drawing of ROYAL THÉRÈSE nothing is left - the gun barrels shadows are absolutely straight and were not staired as we would have anticipated them. The both side gallerys have the very same angel - both following the run of the wales? So the wales were left away due to the optical effect in the drawing?

For PARIS we can see the galleries do fit - for RTh we have good arguments that only transom, side galery and perchance the figurehead were changed but not the hole wales and the planking. Or does there have been any experimenting in the 1670th to built ships without wales?

 

But for taking REYNE are more good arguments - the one you have given, Marc, and the better situation of sources: the number of  drawings of REYNE is twice as large as of RTh...

and both come from the same hand van der Velde.

 

We have some drawing of the recycled decoration. 

And some

good detail of the side figure and sidegalery

and transom.

 

Also the very precice work of Cederic who figured out some very little differences between

SOLEYL ROYAL (blue) and REYNE (red) - the Puget drawing of PARIS gives some very nice detailing of the recycling of the wing figures.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

9 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

(...)

 

 

 

 

I’m confused as to what your approach will be, here, Chris.  Are you going to plank over the cardboard patterns with styrene strip, or are you going to cut new decks from styrene sheet and plank over those?

 

(...)

My English is too bad you see, Marc, I want to test fit the cardboard decks - then cutting them to fit into the hull. And when they do fit I will reshape the kits plastic deck to fit into the hull - then the plastic deck from the Heller kit will be plankedandgettingsome waterway.

[Hubac's Historian]

Oh, okay, got it!

 

As for the VDV drawings, there definitely seems to be only the suggestion of the top, lower main wale and the top, upper main wale (at main deck level), in most of these portrait drawings that they did.  To them, I suppose, the actual run of the wales, in between, could be worked out between those delineations.

 

Most of these VDV drawings, detailed though they are, are more suggestive than photographic.  I am highly fascinated by the following vague drawing, which I also suspect is Le Terrible:

It is confusing, though, how the starboard aspect of this portrait may agree with the port side of this portrait, which I also believe to be Le Terrible:

There are definite similarities in the overall architecture.  It seems to me, though, that the vague upper portrait is a better and more realistic representation of a French 2nd-rate, than the lower portrait which seems a little more stylized, at the stern.

 

These are both VDV portraits, so the question, for me, becomes one of artist’s perspective, relative to the subject, at that moment in time.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello guys!

I went back here to work on

my stand to let him* look like wood.

 

There is a really long, stony hard road to transform plastic into wood... these guy how transformed water into wine must have had a similar job (but I get close to him... Yeeees, I do! Behold this! My wine of yesterday tasted like vinegar tonight  ) - but he was a carpenter, wasn't he?

There are some last glossy spots I have to deal with a pice of  60grain sandpaper to get rid of them.

 

But for God's sake it started to look like orange-tree-wood.

 

 

Not everything looks as perfect as I wish to have it or looks like I deamed it would come out - but I got closer to a solution I can say to:

"Okay Heller - kit you are half a century old, I have done my part of the job - now it is time for you and some colour to found a joint-venture and the colour has to show that it can do its job, too!"

 

_______

*as all ships are a "SHE" someMAN has to lift her over the treshold... I am against gendering ships to a neutral - there is one German ship that is not a femal and was declared male - the biggest German passenger ship of the world

S/S IMPERATOR of the H.A.P.A.G. in 1913 - a ship we could say: "She was the largest craft afloat and the greatest of the works of man." Moran Robertson first line in his novelle Futility (in what he describel the lost of TITANIC 14 years before it does happen in reality - no great literature, but a prophetical thing to read for those that are interested in naval history it was obvious that a this accident will happen and the companys looked no gazed on the stakeholder's values all over the world - world turned since than but didn't change a bit!)**

___________

**This was a typical HdS topicdisgressionation.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added IMPERATOR 😊

[claude.mcelvain]

Looks like you spent a lot of time researching the model.  I have found this to be time consuming but well worth the time and effort.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks a lot, Claude! What I think is that any minute you invest into researchs adds a week if detail or rebuild work on the workbranch into your model... 

...and often months of stand still at the shipyard due to redesigning everything again.

[CédricL]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:47 PM, Hubac's Historian said:

 

….

 

As for taking on another Heller conversion build, La Reyne is the best candidate, IMO, because she was a near sister ship to the original SR: same yard, same builder, same rate, only a year apart in construction, and with only minor differences in size and armament.

 

I think Cedric may have abandoned his model because he is un-willing to accept certain compromises in the kit architecture.  Perhaps, with all of the research he has done - and it is quite significant - he is drafting plans for a full scratch-build.  I hope he is.

 

On the other hand, if you can accept the forward sheer of the Heller wales, and if you can accept the layout of Heller’s guns, and if you can reverse engineer the older style of head rails onto the Heller architecture, then, there is no reason whatsoever that one can’t make a very satisfying facsimile of La Reyne from the Heller kit.

Hello Marc, Heinrich,

 

Well, back after a looooong time !

 

Just for info, I got some health's issue (two broken fingers and cerebral arthrosis, not yet solved) plus a promotion at work, wich means a little more money but foremost many more work.

I did not cancelled my project on La Reyne but took some time to search for the building way used by Hubac (in french: tablette et trébuchet). This is not really essential for my current project but really nice to learn those things. In between, I also took a little of my freetime to move to the XX century with two plastic kits of russian battleships, but...

 

 

I also think that the hull of le SR, being the one of 1692, could be used as basis for another project but don't really know if La Reyne would be the best to choose, just the 16 gunports with the sheer of the decks, the heights between them and the wales are serious problems to solve. And I even don't speak about the fact that the bowsprit has to be lowered from one deck, the masts to be slightly moved and adjusted to their correct dimensions etc etc etc.

 

Knowing the dimensions of the second SR, it would be possible to find another ship of the time close to those with less surergy to do.

My two cents: the books of JC Lemineur and J. Boudriot (74-120 guns ships) are "the one to have" for such a project.

 

I will try to come more often to see your projects now.

 

Regards.

Cédric

[Hubac's Historian]

Hi Cedric!  I’m sorry to hear you’ve had a few health problems, but I’m glad to see you back on MSW.  Welcome back!

[mtaylor]

It's great to see you back, Cedric.  Sorry to hear of the health problems and I hope you can have a full recovery.  Love the cat on the workbench obviously waiting for you.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello and welcome back Cederic!

 

Russian battleships?*

Okay promotion allways meets more money and responsibility with much more work and much more taxes. Broken fingers are an disgusting thing - sorry to hear about. 

 

La REYNE is a very ambitious project and I think if we base on a given hull we have to live with some uncomfortable features. So I know I should 

Move the wales a bit at last three gunports but why should I risk the hole project by weaken the plastic hull for a little group of small irregularities? All I do with the 1/92 Heller hulls are etudes - fingertrainings for a scratchbuild of a ship in some 10 to 15 years...

 

So I do take it seriously - but in my technical education I learnt to use tolerances. I may file a bit of a wale away and add some polysterol sheet on the other side - but  I  have to keep away from too radical plastic surgery. Your way was astonishing radical and straight to the goal. I am a much more shyer person than you it seem to me.

 

So I today did some progress with my stand by painting it with an acrylic brush.

So the wooden structure craved in by knife and a fine file top was added by the ductus of the brushes hairs.

Here the joiner of bare sanded and manipulated plastic with the overpainted support to show the effectively done job of covering the "orangetreewood".  Otherwise It will hapen the orange will come to see.

This over here is the backrest of our diningroom chairs. My target is to imitate this warm red brown oak effect. So I will add some redbrown ink and some kind of covering varnish to come to a similar warm feeling looking at the stand.

 

I also managed by this to imitate the grain of the wood. The colour I use is simply the Revell N°88 matt acrylic "Ocker".

 

And by this we have to wait what it will look like tomorrow in the first day's light.

 

 

______

*I can understand fully why - I love the

PETROPAVLOVSK class they were so beautiful battleships. I build all of them 25years ago for the WTJ tabletop game "Battlefleet 1900" in 1/780 but never found anybody to play with me...

[CédricL]

Hello all,

 

First thanks all for your kind words, both fingers are OK now, but the problems with the cats (4 at home) are not yet solved. I even found one of them sleeping in one of the SR hulls resting in a stash….

 

Christian,

If I had to do such support, I would use the Heller one as template to make another one in wood, it's not a terrific job and would be far more real. But it's your kit.

I scrapped the existing wales on the hull and there's absolutely no problems with solidity. In fact, the thickness of the plastic becomes obvious if you'll have to make new gunports.

Living with uncomfortable features is also evident if you want to deal with those ships, no plans and in the case of the first SR not even the smallest drawing  before 1688. At least you'll have a good basis to transform your SR into le St Philippe (this without speaking about the current problems of the kit itself).

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks a lot , Cederic! Now my hull was bent a bit by the foam to get the inner shape - the decks donot fit in perfectly - but this may be an usual kitproblem at all. Do you know anything about this?

So I am highly sceptical to the stiffness of the hull. I want to get the 36pounder deck in before I do start to re-wale and than re-plank the hull due yo stabity.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Praise the orangewoodtree for being the humbelest coloured wood on earth, my friends!

 

Here the second layer of paint. 

Ocker matt 88 from Revell

Dark Earth matt 82 from Revell

Both mixed together and som times a bit of

this tree Citardell inks was added to change the basic colour below the later ink layers a bit more.

It is not dry at all

but starts to look like wood.

 

Invest of time 3,5 hours it could be worse

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Here a bar joiner the darker shall dry so I can after this paint the lighter again in a lightly changed brownish redish shape.

With the time it comes more and more...

...layer by layer to that dark brown I want to have. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added last picture.

[Hubac's Historian]

Your grain paint looks terrific, Chris!  Highly realistic!

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks Marc, so the days and days of monotonic sanding in some pattern 60grain paper, than scratching in the borders between the different pices of "orangetreewood" and at the third step using a sharp file to press in the lines have made their job at least... 😴

 

Tomorrow I'll have to attatch a last and very last layer of ink - and then a clear matt spraying code out of the can plus adding some soft material to seperate the plastic from the hull.. I dont think I will be able to get my washers ready that I plan to add on any fixingpint to hide the middele gap between th elongitudenal two pieced bar. You can see it in #169 in the first picture very well. I'll show the problem to you tomorrow, too.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

I can today onlyplan the forhe iron washers - as my mother is laying in sickbed the hole day has transformed into (feeling) two hours. I am adding the first scetch to the iron Washer, Stand

 

- their diagonal is the breadth of the bars top some 10mm.

 

I do need them twice for the join of the long bars to hide the gap - the other four washers are there to keep the criossings and fixingpoints equally.

 

_______________

Edit:

This stroke effected my center of remembering so here

the important picture of the  gap that should be hidden I forgot. Sorry for this.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello friends of the SAINT PHILIPPE, 

 

the brown ink from Citardel

is now ready to be covert by varnish.

Here the critical joining of the longest bar.

Here the hole construction ready.

Here the end-grain looking as rough as possible.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Tomorrow I'll add a pile of better pictures by day light.

 

Edit:

Sorry to say that... But

daylight doesn't make it, too.

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
As promised a dayligtht picture.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

 

The washers size is changed up to

12mm x 12mm a bit less than

1/2inch to 1/2inch here the first sketch to try out the  size and get some idea about

the dimension of washer and screw.

Here the six squareplates cut out.

Twelve grooves and eight cuts added by a key file

 

Sprayed with a first matt black layer out of the can.

Not as good as thought I would be able to file them - the washers in black look more handcrafed than I estimated they may do.

Here N°1 in place covering and camouflaging the gap between the two bar ends.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added pictures step by production step

[EJ_L]

Looking fantastic! The end result is an excellent simulated wood. Truly impressive.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

I had some time this afternoon to try some rough colouring sheme on a test scale copy to get a first look.

I kept the underwaterpart of the lowest wale white and think about a  light bar (0,3 x 0,1mm) to seperate the underwater lead white paint from the upper hull. Is this right or was it first introduced with the upcoming of coppered underwater hulls?

The wales will get a darkerbrown as the stand is, the red will be more vermillion and the yellow/gold is not applied till now. - the complex to draw grating also.

I have got no odea how to paint the imitated windows. 

I think about a

 - framed mirrors (closest to glas)

- some kind of a mixture of verdigris and lead white under clear gloss varnish.

- metallic lead as framed plates

- black with white dots as imitated refections

- green as imitational clour of glas at contemporary shipmodels 

- something completely different

 

What is the specialists idea? 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
million -> vermillion

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks a lot EJ_L-  but the pictures I haven't posted are showing the weaknesses and at these a huge amount of work will be put in the bad sides to lift them to be right. I am really very very critic as the stand is my best area for the planking and wales work later on... and it is not scaled 1/92 it is something around 1/24 to 1/36 as I guess.

 

 

Whit my SAINT PHILIPPE I had some minutes to colour the plans further on.

 

Step 1

 

Step 2

 

By this I can show my mother (who presented the kit last Christmas some progress without risking to damage the model on transport.

I.
The planking of the Lower Gundeck (36 pounder) is my very next partproject.

And so I tryed a more serious look onto the planks. By colouring them I figured out there is one plank ending in a very sharp top.

The second (brown) plank under the gun between the waterway (red) and the midship plangk (light yellow).Additively to the coloured planks

 

I placed an extra doodling to show the case on the plan...*

A very strange and astonishing thing to see!!! Can this be right? Or am I too close to RN-shipbuilding standards of the Georgian Era and baroque planking allowed such ends also they were avoided in the hull planking?

 

II.
By this I recognized that the

wales joins change from hook on the first four (from CWL upwards) to simply diagonal in the last two wales on the Upper Deck. I simply marked the suspicious wales grey... 

 

 

I have had the idea this might be due to the lighter frames on the upper end or is this an error in the plan. ("Always you have to be highly sceptical to noncontemporary plans - and even these are sometimes questionabe!" W.Mondfeld)

 

_____

*Due to my bad brain forgetting anything that wasn't written down.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added doodling.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Further colouring...

I decided to braek the complete covering of the fransom in goldyellow and red by keeping some areas unpainted - as some darkbrown wood fits to both colours:

By this I left all the

window frames unpainted and

Some in the balkony of the nameplate a blank wood frame so the transom doesn't look as heavy gold covered as on other models. I think the British design is very golden.

The area between the last window and the column is very large and completly empty. I can not belief that at a transom where any squareinch is filled with decoration these two prominent places will not be used. So I tried to fill the port side with an volute.

in 1/92 the lampds will be very tiny objects to build. I decided to stay away from a massiv goldyellow cornice bove, the large curonnament and layed in a red stripe to interrupt the top framing.

At the breakhead bulkhead there isn't a lot I could do to come away from the large vermillion red area under the grating & fleur-de-lys change stripe.

For the lower transom.I also de-golded the decoration still think about red stripes as inlays for the columns besude the name plate. The lines are dotted and so I donot know how to deal with it.

 

Any further ideas? 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture