Getting a tight finish to a rope

[Marco R]

Newbie (who has already pestered Chuck and Alexy offline!)... My question is about how to "finish" a natural thread rope (I've learned you can't melt it!) so that the ends don't unwind. Apologies it is a long post but the context is a little unusual.

 

Full disclosure - The project is not for a model ship but a hand made 3 inch high miniature brass drum where I have made every single component by hand including the tube and painting. All that remains is the rope. (Photo of drum below with horrid fuzzy "off the shelf" rope),. its just that this forum is THE FORUM for rope making so I hope you don't mind the newbie /outsider post

 

I've seen Chuck's Syren Ship rope and it is so tight. Amazing. And I immediately thought to buy his rope walk. But constrained space at home means I couldn't have a long rope walk and I as I need to make a batch for each drum that is about 3.5m long. So I've bought a Domanoff Planetary rope walk and having lots of fun (And frustration) trying to make some decent rope.

 

I've read lots of really helpful posts about different manufacturers (DMC, Gütenberg), different thread sizes, left lay/right lay, threads/strands/ropes/cables... how it is all about experimentation etc but I am still struggling to make a) tight scaled rope to the size I want and b) how to get a really tight rope that when I cut it does not unwind. its all quite overwhelming as a newbie! I am sure also that much of it is about how I am using the Domanoff (and Alexey has been super helpful but I can't keep pestering him!)

 

I am guessing it has to do with either the left/right lay or the speed of the Planetary rope walk but I am struggling. And would be very grateful if anyone out there (especially if using DMC ecru 10 or DMC ecru 20 on a planetary rope walk) could check my logic.

 

MY PROCESS/LOGIC

I want to make a rope about .85mm to 1mm thick, so under Chuck's guidance am experimenting with DMC 10 and DMC 20 crochet thread.

 

For 1mm rope, I use DMC 10 Cebelia crochet thread, I mount 3 bobbins on the Domanoff Planetary rope walk (as I want 3 strand rope), and set the control to lay the rope to the right, adjusting the drive, take-up and traverse to try and get as tight a twist as possible.

Q1. Should this have been to the left, as DMC Cebelia is already laid to the right?

 

3.  After passing through the Main components, The Domanoff requires you to wind the 3 threads around the take up spool and then tie it off. This means that the very end of the ropes are not twisted and when you finally unwind the rope you have made to put in on another spool, the rope ends are loose. (see 2 images below)

Q2. Am I doing something wrong at this stage about how I lay or tie off the thread? How do you "finish" the ends of a rope made from cotton rather than polyester?

 

Q3. Would be better off making a Cable? Ie making 3 ropes of 3 strands using a smaller thread size such as 60? (assuming then that I need to alternate the lay  between the strands and then the ropes to get a "Self tightening "twist

[BANYAN]

Hi and welcome.

 

I am assuming you wish to make RHL rope (even though you ask about Cable laid)?

 

To make rope tight, sometimes (depending on what way you make the rope) it needs to be set.  This means overtightening at the end (additional twisting without lengthening) or pre-tensioning by unlaying the rope initially.  From what you are describing there are a few points, and a few things you could try.

 

1.  Cable laid is stronger but makes-up more stiffer.

2.  You are correct in saying that if you start with RHL then make it up LHL, so if possible source some LHL stock (harder to find), or make it up LHL if the small amount of extra stiffness or direction of lay is not an issue - you may hardly notice the stiffness at this scale especially if using softer stock threads.

3. The angle of the lay (which really equates to the number of winds per inch/cm) also helps; somewhere around 60 degrees is optimum (but more knowledgeable people may help here).  I am not familiar enough with Alex's ropewalk but you may be able to adjust this using different tension weights.

4.  I think you are connecting the source thread properly.  You could try adding some diluted PVA/Water to the end of the rope where it starts to lay-up before removing the made up scale rope - let it set before cutting - this will help stop it unravelling at that end.  HOWEVER, a better practice may be to simply tie a knot at both ends at this point so that you can 'set' the rope off the ropewalk. (see next)

5.  Some more experienced folk can make up rope (from practice and experimentation) that does not unravel - Chuck's is a good example).  One thing that I have found helps is that after making up the rope, I 'set' it.  I first stretch the rope manually (pulling between my hands in about one-metre lengths - arms distance where I can still apply tension comfortably) - as soon as you 'feel' that little bit of over tensioning - feels a little like a small strand has broken - STOP   - this will take a little experience but comes naturally.  Once I have completed this step, I hang the rope from some spread out hooks in the ceiling (at height) with large fishing weights on fishing line swivels, at both ends for a couple of days - the swivels are to assist with removing twist).  I find this takes much of the 'elasticity/stretch out of the scale rope and minimises the tendency for any twisting when using the scale rope.  The amount of stretch to be removed really depends on the source stock. (see next).

6.  My last point would be to use a stock that suits your needs.  Is the rope used on the actual drum a natural, man-made or mix of cordage - and is this aspect important (authentic replication)?  I prefer where ever possible to use natural fibre, and preferably long-staple cotton thread.  I have had some success with a poly-cotton mix also (needs a little more 'after-stretching' due to the poly but tends to lay up just a little better ) but cotton can lay nicely also, just look at Chuck's rope.  If a mixed source thread,  I try to stay at under 30% poly content if possible.

 

So if you have DMC already, which I think is RHL, and cable laid is no issue to you as to looks/authenticity, make it up into cable laid (LHL/'S') scale rope.  If you do need RHL final product, either source or make up your own LHL stock.  There is a 'tatting' thread made by Milford which is cotton and does come in LHL.  Not sure where you would get it but I found it here in a chain store called "Spotlight".

 

I hope this helps rather than confuses you further?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited February 24, 2019 by BANYAN

[jud]

You can make some changes in your manufacturing process to tighten up the finished rope, sounds like you have researched and spoken with those who are in the know about how to do that. Listen to what you have been told and read some illustrated instructions and tighten up your finished product, the starting ends you speak of, don't make mountains out of nothing, tape the rope where it has started to come together as intended and cut the waste off when you again reach that part of the spool. Your rope looks like a fuzz bomb, should not be a problem, use some bees wax a piece of canvas and burnish your finished rope, 'might add some character' or run it through a clean gas flame and burn the fuzz off. Good Luck. If all else fails farm it out to someone who can provide what you need.

[Marco R]

Thank you Banyan and Jud for the detailed replies. I will try your helpful suggestions about tightening and knotting.

the original full scale drum use a LH cable laid but at miniature scale the lay is less important than the definition and the fuzz free!

 

i will continue experimenting with both the DMC making a single rope and with some smaller scale maya to make up a ropes then cable as well as the angle of the lay.i realize there are no short cuts and I am determined to make the rope as it is the only component I have not taught myself to make!!

 

Alexey’s planetary rope walk takes a while to understand the configurations, tensions and lay and I will continue to persevre

 

I've also got some Besswax on the way to wax the threads/strands..... is it best to do this at the strand stage or at the rope stage?

[BANYAN]

Hi again Marco, 

 

Some do, and others don't like the use of wax ( I am a don't)   If you wish to use it there are several ways, and please think about a 'conservator's wax rather than beeswax.  I have found the latter remains sticky and holds dust especially in our hotter climate.  Try something like Renaissance Conservators wax if preserving the natural cordage is important - beeswax tends to be too 'sticky' (but you may get valid counter-point debate on this topic). 

 

If applying as a 'solid' wax after making up the rope, you can either pull the rope through the wax a couple of times rotating the rope then rub in by pulling it through your fingers or lint free cloth with light pressure to warm it and get it to sit into the crevices better; or, apply the wax onto a lint free cloth and pull the rope through the waxed cloth.

 

The other method is to make a jig (discussed somewhere in the forums) that allows you to melt the wax and pull the rope (or threads before making up the rope through the solution.  Basically comprises two glass jars with tin lids that sit one inside the other and has wire guides protruding from the top of the inner jar as guides.  The outer jar is filled with hot water and the inner the melted wax - the hot water keeps the wax in solution much longer.  You may also find you need to dilute the wax with denatured alcohol or the like to get it to penetrate properly; beeswax will not penetrate unless highly diluted.  

These photos are from a member "Stelios' version of this jig.

 

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

[mtaylor]

I too have a Domanonff rope machine.  Currently it's sitting as originally sold (no upgrades installed) but I do have all the upgrades.  I will say it takes some practice and experimentation to get it to make good rope, but then don't they all?   Hopefully, I'll find the initiative to install the upgrades this spring.  Then I'll start the learning curve all over again.  Yes, went through a large amount of thread with it but then, I hadn't a clue how to make rope when I started.

[Marco R]

Thanks again Banyan, for the detailed response about waxing. I will look into the Renaissance conservators wax - and once the beeswax is here see what results I get.

I still have to perfect the rope - at the moment I am getting it either too loose or too tight (It kinks a bit!) 

 

But I am extremely grateful to you for the help and the time you have taken to respond so fully. 

[BANYAN]

No problem Marco, hope the info helps.  WRT kinks, sometimes they are caused by one of the stock/source threads not being at the same tension - one of the most important things before starting to twist/turn is to ensure that all stock threads are equally tensioned.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[JerseyCity Frankie]

When cut, the ends of the rope are going to Unlay no matter how much twist. Depending on the material you use some rope will unlay more than others. In scale models the Whipping winds up being dipping the end in glue. Synthetic line can be cut with a hot knife and this heat melts the fibers at the cut. But if you want Historical Acuracy you will have to put a Whipping on the end of the line, which is what is done in full size practice. Whipping is done with a needle and thread, look up “sailmakers Whipping “ and “common Whipping”.  

Edited February 26, 2019 by JerseyCity Frankie

[Marco R]

Update- has to return my soma off planetary ropewalk as it had some quality issues. ALexey has been super supportive and so I hope to pick up in a  month or so with trying to make my own rope. I certinaly need to/want to long term for my project.

 

however that means in the short term I need to have about 35 meters of tightly 3 strand ecru rope made by someone to about 08.85-1.00mm diameter, to the sort of Syren rope quality (sadly Chuck is already maxed out) so that I can get going.

 

I am Unsure who to approach as posting something for sale in the forums requires a significant number of posts to have been completed! Any ideas who could produce this or recommendations on who to approach so I can take delivery within a 2-3 week timeframe?

[davyboy]

Hi Marco,you can have a look at this website :- www.modellbau-takelgarn.de

 

He supplies a range of scale ropes in cotton beige and tan,LH and RH lay in many different diameters. I've

bought from him and was happy with his product. He will I'm sure make you up some tightly stranded

rope if you ask him. He is ok with emails in English.

 

Dave  

[Marco R]

Thank you so much. I will contact him and see if he is able to help. I greatly appreciate the recommendation Dave

[Marco R]

I have tried to contact him 3 times but got no answer. Perhaps he is no longer trading. Any other ideas/suggestions anyone?

 

[vossiewulf]

1 hour ago, Marco R said:

I have tried to contact him 3 times but got no answer. Perhaps he is no longer trading. Any other ideas/suggestions anyone?

 

https://www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com/miniature-rope.php

 

It will cost more than shipping from Germany but it's excellent quality line, he's the only one I know who is likely to be able to fulfill your need.

[davyboy]

Hi Marco,that's strange. I bought scale rope from him around 4 weeks ago. 

 

Dave