Stairs on the hull planking and on the wale

[Ferit]

Hi,

May I learn the solution. Which one is correct about the steps of a stair located outside of the hull?

1. The width of the all steps is to be kept in line: The width of a step on the hull planking is wider than the one on the wale.

2. The width of the all steps is same upon they are on the hull planking or on the wale (Doen't passing from the step on the hull planking to the one on the wale make climbing difficult?).

[allanyed]

Ferit

Assuming you mean dimension "A" in the sketch below, I checked a number of photos of contemporary models from NMM and Preble Hall and cannot find anything that indicates that the dimension "A" changes.  It appears to be the same for every step on the photos I could study.  None of the photos that I have are at a great angle to see this clearly though.    I could not find anything specific in any books such as Goodwin et al, so I am only guessing, based on what I can see in the photos of the models.       Allan

 

 

[Ferit]

Allan, thank you for your reply.

Yes I meant dimension "A"

 

At the drawing below, I don't see any problem when climbing from #1 to #2 and from #3 to #4 but from #2 to #3 there should be a trouble considering knee and foot position of the crew. It would be problematic even if you step from #1 to #2 because the position of the knee doesn't allow easily to do that due to contacting with #3.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Ferit

[peveka]

2 hours ago, Ferit said:

It would be problematic even if you step from #1 to #2 because the position of the knee doesn't allow easily to do that due to contacting with #3.

Hi Ferit

Maybe they just turned the lower part of their body to one side?

Source: me. I'm a retired physio, I've seen all sorts of "funny walks" ;o)

Cheers

Pieter

Edited June 10, 2019 by peveka

[Ferit]

Aerobic and pilates at age of sails... 😀

[allanyed]

I understand the concern but consider there would be rope rails for the climber to hold on to while climbing up or descending the steps.  A rolling ship, slippery steps, offset position, long coats and hanging swords, are a recipe for someone to wind up back in the bottom of the ship's boat  or in the water.

Allan

 

 

[peveka]

8 minutes ago, Ferit said:

Aerobic and pilates at age of sails

Something these people definitely not needed! They were exercising 24/7

[Jaager]

Building codes specify stairs have specific height and depth ratios - I think our brains quickly adapt to and expect a rhythm when climbing a manufactured apparatus.   The "bulge" at a wale would be easier to adapt to than a difference in step depth or distance between steps.  Since most vessels had significant tumble home, the body contact with the higher steps would signal where a foot should go.

[jud]

Sometimes you need to use the side of ladders, in my case in the photo, climbing from the Whale Boat to the Bows, 'Bow Hook',  is climb the sides or look at your toes while using your arms to climb with, 'spacing on that thing made for a hard climb, up or down'. There would have been man Ropes at the sides of those Boarding Steps, which indicates they were climbed looking inboard. That would require some uniformity between steps without an obstruction at the Wale. Perhaps the majority of the ships had no steps on the Wales, 'if spacing would allow', a step below and the next above the Wale. Larger ships with beefer Wales could preserve the uniformity of the steps by minimum width for footing on the Wales and those steps below and above extended to match the outboard edge of those steps mounted on the Wales.

Edited June 10, 2019 by jud

[Ferit]

IMO...

Usability must come before aesthetics... You don't want extra difficulty when working in too variable and difficult conditions. To keep all width in a line is more convenient than to make the width of all steps uniform.

 

Why have I to turn and return my body from hull to wale and vis versa instead of adjusting all steps (fixed to the hull as opposed to an unstable and mobile rope ladder) in a line?... It's not suitable for ergonomics... I don't think the engineers of that period had ignored this issue. I imagine an admiral or one of the upper rank sailors or a noble trying to climb a stair having irregular steps... 🙄

As Jud said; maybe they avoided fixing a step on a wale as far as possible...

 

If I understood correctly there is not a reliable and precise information about this issue.

 

 

[allanyed]

The below photos of contemporary models show steps on various vessels from the late 17th century to the late 18th century.  Note the ropes on a couple of them are shown.   There is also a photo of the Victory, modern day.  I would like to think the steps are an accurate representation of how they were originally installed.  

Allan

[Ferit]

Thank you for your replies...

 

What I think is that the width of the wales may be negligible on some vessels... On some others they had avoided to fix steps on the wales...

 

But I want to learn your opinion about the stairs on the photo below... The width of the steps on the wales are narrow compared with the width of the others. Some steps of which the upper part fixed on the hull planking and the lower part on the wale are modified according to the gap... 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Ferit

[allanyed]

I have no idea if any of these are wrong and would not be surprised if the steps were in various configurations on the real ships.  Is the photo of a contemporary model?

Allan 

[wefalck]

Equidistant steps are more important for effcient use then their position in our out. Remember that they would be used mainly at sea, when the ship is rolling and pitching. Almost every person using these steps would have had some practice at sea, including running up the rigging and negotiating the overhung ratlines underneath mast-tops. So a protruding step would not really be a challenge, particularly, when you are pulling yourself up on the (knotted) rope that runs alongside the steps.

[Ferit]

51 minutes ago, allanyed said:

I have no idea if any of these are wrong and would not be surprised if the steps were in various configurations on the real ships.  Is the photo of a contemporary model?

Allan 

https://tr.pinterest.com/pin/391531761336738385/

[Ferit]

I'm not really interested in proving my own idea, I'm just trying to understand the logic in the background.

[Deperdussin1910]

"Almost every person using these steps would have had some practice at sea, including running up the rigging and negotiating the overhung ratlines underneath mast-tops. "  Well said!  I learned to climb the futtock shrouds into the fight tops.

[Jaager]

The last picture =  is likely a first rate or ship expected to be a flagship.  The change is at an entry "door".  Only the "plebs" would be using the steps above the door. There is even a wider step at the level of the upper gun deck for those who use the gun port at that level instead of climbing to the rail.

The steps for the fat old men (flag oficiers) are wider and more uniform.

[allanyed]

Fat old men probably were hauled up or lowered via a bosun's chair.  Would not want to lose an admiral or some such. 😀

Allan

[jud]

In the photo at Post #12, it is obvious that the lengths varied, also the distance between the top of each step is uniform and it appears as if the outside edge of each step are all equal distances from the Framing Ribs, regardless of location, be it Planking or Wale. Can only assume that the effort to make it so, was the result of experience and the preference of those using those steps. Man is an ordered creacher and the steps in Post # 12 reflect that part of our nature.

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by jud

[Ferit]

This is an assumption:
After having a minimum depth enough to fit the foot, aligning the outer edges of all steps (for ergonomics) should be a very ordinary and simple task for men who think about the location and usefulness of every rope, every nail etc and finally produce an enormous and functional piece of work.

Maybe it is me who take care unnecessarily too much of the comfort of the sailors of those times... 😁

[Morganp]

Question: do the steps and skid beams on the outside planking of a large 18th century warship appear on both sides of the ship? I look forward to an answer.

[allanyed]

The fenders (skid beams) and steps are on both sides of the ship in most cases that I have seen.  Note the two contemporary models from RMG below as just two examples. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other examples on their website.

Allan

 

 

Edited March 13 by allanyed

[Morgan]

Dimension ‘A’ in Post #2 or ‘step’ between the Wales and the planking above and below were not that great, they would only be one to two inches (25 - 50mm).  On Victory the Black Strakes, those planks above the Main Wale were two inches thinner, as were the Diminishing Strakes, those below the Main Wale, and so on.  The higher up the ship the less noticeable the change in thickness with the subsequent strakes and Wales.

 

At a maximum of 50mm difference step change in planking in the scales we generally work at we are talking only 0.5 - 1mm difference, or Dimension ‘A’ in post #2 above.

 

Gary

Edited March 14 by Morgan

[Morganp]

Perfect answer Alan! Thank you.