Jump to content

Stairs on the hull planking and on the wale


Recommended Posts

Hi,

May I learn the solution. Which one is correct about the steps of a stair located outside of the hull?

1. The width of the all steps is to be kept in line: The width of a step on the hull planking is wider than the one on the wale.

2. The width of the all steps is same upon they are on the hull planking or on the wale (Doen't passing from the step on the hull planking to the one on the wale make climbing difficult?).

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ferit

Assuming you mean dimension "A" in the sketch below, I checked a number of photos of contemporary models from NMM and Preble Hall and cannot find anything that indicates that the dimension "A" changes.  It appears to be the same for every step on the photos I could study.  None of the photos that I have are at a great angle to see this clearly though.    I could not find anything specific in any books such as Goodwin et al, so I am only guessing, based on what I can see in the photos of the models.       Allan

 Step.JPG.7e86686817bbd54133f8b6c80f63abb7.JPG

 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allan, thank you for your reply.

Yes I meant dimension "A"

 

At the drawing below, I don't see any problem when climbing from #1 to #2 and from #3 to #4 but from #2 to #3 there should be a trouble considering knee and foot position of the crew. It would be problematic even if you step from #1 to #2 because the position of the knee doesn't allow easily to do that due to contacting with #3.

 

 

Stair.jpg

Edited by Ferit

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ferit said:

It would be problematic even if you step from #1 to #2 because the position of the knee doesn't allow easily to do that due to contacting with #3.

Hi Ferit

Maybe they just turned the lower part of their body to one side?

Source: me. I'm a retired physio, I've seen all sorts of "funny walks" ;o)

Cheers

Pieter

Edited by peveka

Some much wood so little time ...

 

Current builds: Nulli Cedo, an 18th century Dutch war clog,   HMS Bellona

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand the concern but consider there would be rope rails for the climber to hold on to while climbing up or descending the steps.  A rolling ship, slippery steps, offset position, long coats and hanging swords, are a recipe for someone to wind up back in the bottom of the ship's boat  or in the water.

Allan

 

 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Building codes specify stairs have specific height and depth ratios - I think our brains quickly adapt to and expect a rhythm when climbing a manufactured apparatus.   The "bulge" at a wale would be easier to adapt to than a difference in step depth or distance between steps.  Since most vessels had significant tumble home, the body contact with the higher steps would signal where a foot should go.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes you need to use the side of ladders, in my case in the photo, climbing from the Whale Boat to the Bows, 'Bow Hook',  is climb the sides or look at your toes while using your arms to climb with, 'spacing on that thing made for a hard climb, up or down'. There would have been man Ropes at the sides of those Boarding Steps, which indicates they were climbed looking inboard. That would require some uniformity between steps without an obstruction at the Wale. Perhaps the majority of the ships had no steps on the Wales, 'if spacing would allow', a step below and the next above the Wale. Larger ships with beefer Wales could preserve the uniformity of the steps by minimum width for footing on the Wales and those steps below and above extended to match the outboard edge of those steps mounted on the Wales.

1561735252_DIRECTFROMCEARCLICK911.thumb.jpg.96fa92dcd655612aa6d171b68315fc7b.jpg

Edited by jud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO...

Usability must come before aesthetics... You don't want extra difficulty when working in too variable and difficult conditions. To keep all width in a line is more convenient than to make the width of all steps uniform.

 

Why have I to turn and return my body from hull to wale and vis versa instead of adjusting all steps (fixed to the hull as opposed to an unstable and mobile rope ladder) in a line?... It's not suitable for ergonomics... I don't think the engineers of that period had ignored this issue. I imagine an admiral or one of the upper rank sailors or a noble trying to climb a stair having irregular steps... 🙄

As Jud said; maybe they avoided fixing a step on a wale as far as possible...

 

If I understood correctly there is not a reliable and precise information about this issue.

 

 

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The below photos of contemporary models show steps on various vessels from the late 17th century to the late 18th century.  Note the ropes on a couple of them are shown.   There is also a photo of the Victory, modern day.  I would like to think the steps are an accurate representation of how they were originally installed.  

Allan

Steps 4th rate 1695 .jpg

Steps 36 gun.jpg

Steps 38 Gun Minerva  1780.jpg

Steps 50gun  1700 .jpg

Steps 60gun 1705.jpg

Steps 90 gun 1701.jpg

Steps Victory  .jpg

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for your replies...

 

What I think is that the width of the wales may be negligible on some vessels... On some others they had avoided to fix steps on the wales...

 

But I want to learn your opinion about the stairs on the photo below... The width of the steps on the wales are narrow compared with the width of the others. Some steps of which the upper part fixed on the hull planking and the lower part on the wale are modified according to the gap... 

wp_ss_20190611_0001.png

Edited by Ferit

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no idea if any of these are wrong and would not be surprised if the steps were in various configurations on the real ships.  Is the photo of a contemporary model?

Allan 

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Equidistant steps are more important for effcient use then their position in our out. Remember that they would be used mainly at sea, when the ship is rolling and pitching. Almost every person using these steps would have had some practice at sea, including running up the rigging and negotiating the overhung ratlines underneath mast-tops. So a protruding step would not really be a challenge, particularly, when you are pulling yourself up on the (knotted) rope that runs alongside the steps.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, allanyed said:

I have no idea if any of these are wrong and would not be surprised if the steps were in various configurations on the real ships.  Is the photo of a contemporary model?

Allan 

https://tr.pinterest.com/pin/391531761336738385/

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Almost every person using these steps would have had some practice at sea, including running up the rigging and negotiating the overhung ratlines underneath mast-tops. "  Well said!  I learned to climb the futtock shrouds into the fight tops.

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last picture =  is likely a first rate or ship expected to be a flagship.  The change is at an entry "door".  Only the "plebs" would be using the steps above the door. There is even a wider step at the level of the upper gun deck for those who use the gun port at that level instead of climbing to the rail.

The steps for the fat old men (flag oficiers) are wider and more uniform.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fat old men probably were hauled up or lowered via a bosun's chair.  Would not want to lose an admiral or some such. 😀

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the photo at Post #12, it is obvious that the lengths varied, also the distance between the top of each step is uniform and it appears as if the outside edge of each step are all equal distances from the Framing Ribs, regardless of location, be it Planking or Wale. Can only assume that the effort to make it so, was the result of experience and the preference of those using those steps. Man is an ordered creacher and the steps in Post # 12 reflect that part of our nature.

 

Edited by jud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an assumption:
After having a minimum depth enough to fit the foot, aligning the outer edges of all steps (for ergonomics) should be a very ordinary and simple task for men who think about the location and usefulness of every rope, every nail etc and finally produce an enormous and functional piece of work.

Maybe it is me who take care unnecessarily too much of the comfort of the sailors of those times... 😁

Best Regards…

Ferit KUTLU

 

Under construction: Frigate Berlin (Brandenburg Navy)

Hope: Frigate Wappen Von Hamburg (Brandenburg Navy)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...