L'Hermione Main Deck Solid Shot Storage

[Spike1947]

I am finishing up the deck furniture on my L'Hermoine. The illustration from the AL instructions show triangular storage of round shot identical to that of the gun deck. 

 

 

There are two problems with this as I see it. First, the cannons on the main deck are 6-pounders whereas the cannon on the gun deck are 12-pounders. The solid shot provided in the kit look to be about the correct size for the 12-pounders (about 1mm) but are clearly to large for the main deck guns. Logically, about a 0.5mm ball should be used. I had purchased some 0.5mm ball bearings to use for this purpose. The second problem is how to configure the storage for these noticeably smaller shot. If I just use the same triangular storage it will hold dozens of these small balls. Does anyone have a suggestion regarding an alternative storage method? I've seen narrow racks used in many builds but I don't know it that is a method appropriate for the late 18th Century French frigate

[RichardG]

3 hours ago, Spike1947 said:

There are two problems with this as I see it. First, the cannons on the main deck are 6-pounders whereas the cannon on the gun deck are 12-pounders. The solid shot provided in the kit look to be about the correct size for the 12-pounders (about 1mm) but are clearly to large for the main deck guns. Logically, about a 0.5mm ball should be used. I had purchased some 0.5mm ball bearings to use for this purpose. 

The 6-pounder would not have been 1/2 the size of the 12-pounder. From http://arc.id.au/Cannonballs.html: 12lb is 4.4" and the 6lb is 3.59". 

 

Isn't math and π wonderful!

 

Another Richard.

 

 

 

 

[Spike1947]

Thanks for that math reminder Richard 😉. Also thanks for the great reference link. I just spent part of my morning researching cannonballs and never saw that information. I am still concerned about the aesthetics of using the large cannonballs provided in the kit.

 

 

My photo show the cannonballs provided by the kit, a 6-pound cannon from the kit and my newly acquired 0.5mm balls (near the 15mm mark). I think you'll agree the kit-provide ball looks to big. I think we can also agree that the 0.5mm ball looks too small. I'll try to order a different size ball before I proceed.

 

Richard, can you give me any guidance regarding shot storage?

 

Thanks for your help.

Richard

[RichardG]

That kit provided ball is definitely way too big!

 

Unfortunately I don't have any specific information, especially for French frigates. I've seen racks attached to bulwarks and hatches. I also saw somewhere a rectangular box with a handle that would hold a few shot used for carrying from the shot locker. I wish I could find it again.

 

 I've always been a little suspicious of all these racks they don't seem very practical. Even in a moderate sea, I could see them falling out all the time. The rate of fire was not fast, so it's not like they needed a lot immediately next to the cannon. I would assume (probably a fatal mistake), that most of the time they were stored in a shot locker.

 

This is an interesting contraption:

From https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/36209251211

 

[mtaylor]

Hmm.. interesting.  I looked at the ANCRE monograph for the L'Hermione frigate, There's 8 cannon and 4 carronades on the upper deck.  No shot triangles which seems to be normal for French frigates.

 

The gun disposition per ANCRE was 4 carronades and 4 cannon aft and 4 cannon forward.

[Spike1947]

Thanks to Richard and Mark for putting some time into my question. This is my first scale model wooden ship build. I've got to say that I never expected this learning curve to be so much about what the actual ship looked like. I knew there would be the modeling skills to learn but the basic research was not anticipated. I'm not necessarily complaining, I enjoy this kind of learning. There no good to come of kicking the carcass that is Artesania Latina but I do wish they had made a clearer commitment to what kit they were designing. Does it represent the modern replica? Does it represent the original ship? It seems to be some mash-up of both.

 

Richard, that is definitely an interesting contraption.

 

Mark, I explored the question of the main deck armament in this forum a while back and your comments are in line with some that I got at the time of that post. I decided, mostly for the sake of expediency, to just use the 6-pound cannon supplied with the kit. The image below is, I think, from the ANCRE monograph. it seems to show shot triangles adjacent to main deck 6-pounders. I'm thinking that once I find the right ball size - 0.5mm is clearly not it - I will form properly sized shot triangle to accommodate those balls.

 

[Roger Pellett]

One can only imagine the chaos that would occur with dozens of iron cannon balls rolling around the deck in any kind of weather!!  Murphy is ever present at sea, and his law applies to loose cannon balls as well as everything else that can and will come loose aboard ship at sea.

 

By our standards, things moved slowly in the age of sail and there was usually plenty of time to ready a ship for combat, including providing the guns with a ready supply of shot.

 

My guess is that this is just another example of a kit manufacturer trying to add unnecessary sex appeal to its product.

 

Roger

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

Rats.... my apologies. I fat-fingered the guns and positions.   AL is part of the problem.  As I understand it, they used another ship and called it L'Hermoine which they often did.

[CapnMac82]

On 11/19/2019 at 8:44 PM, RichardG said:

That kit provided ball is definitely way too big!

 

Unfortunately I don't have any specific information, especially for French frigates. I've seen racks attached to bulwarks and hatches. I also saw somewhere a rectangular box with a handle that would hold a few shot used for carrying from the shot locker. I wish I could find it again.

 

 I've always been a little suspicious of all these racks they don't seem very practical. Even in a moderate sea, I could see them falling out all the time. The rate of fire was not fast, so it's not like they needed a lot immediately next to the cannon. I would assume (probably a fatal mistake), that most of the time they were stored in a shot locker.

 

This is an interesting contraption:

From https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/36209251211

 

Give you even odds that's a rack for heated shot for a shore defense cannon..

[jud]

If in action, perhaps shot was accumulated and contained in a triangle holder but I doubt it, might stay where put when full if the fit was tight enough to prevent any movement. Pocket cut into the hatch combings, would be more logical during combat. Storing them on a weather deck, regardless of fixture would encourage rust allowing the problems with rust to fun freely, they wern't that dumb. Chasing shot was probably more fun than chasing 8" projectiles around a shell deck that had been released by worn and stretched securing cables held in place by past center cams. Always happened in rough weather when the weather decks were secured preventing going up the Barbette through the tail hatch and into the Turret Officers Booth, then threw the right Gun Room and down into it's Gun Pit, through the hatch to the Upper Powder Handling room and on down another hatch to the Shell Deck where all the racket was coming from. Entering from below it was through the armored Barbette and up a ladder through a non rotating hatch, then up through a rotating hinged deck plate about 2 feet above the non rotating hatch into the shell deck. Risky, had to wait until the roll cleared the hatch of projectiles, then up you went one at a time shutting the hinged deck plate behind you so the projectiles would not fall through that opening as the roll brought them back. Sometimes needed to grab a hold on the overhead fixtures too swing up out of the way. Suspect built in holders were built in for ready service projectiles that were normally empty, unless shooting was expected or an inspection from someone outside the ship was scheduled. I would be making some ready service pockets, leaving them empty and throw those triangles far. Real Life, you do what you need to do to, keep the guns going, so including a boy chasing a cannon ball would not be unseamly.

Different ship different times, our built in ready service racks, did not provide enough storage for our needs, Our short handed crews required stockpiling, would not take long to go through all the ammo you see and be stealing more from adjacent unmanned guns. Mt 46, Harnett County LST 821, TF 116, TU 76.8.3, one of 4 LST's assigned to TF 116, 'River Patrol', full time. Those times we did extended firing we acquired an audience, which during several different times of that, that audience,on their own, passed us ammo from nearby unmanned guns.

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by jud

[mtaylor]

Jud,

Many times those triangle shot holders had a solid base with holes (pockets) cut into the base for the shot to sit.  Now in a rolling sea, I wouldn't want to be near one with more than one layer of shot. 

[jud]

Mark, they may have been brought out when needed, but blocking the waterways would create problems with drainage and encourage rot along the decks and bottom of the devices. Even pockets cut for individual shot would require drain holes. Suspect that those devices caught the eye of a painter or early model maker and if actually used, they were probably considered gun equipment and brought out with the buckets, rammer's, hand Spikes, powder boxes, etc. to be used when needed and stored because of interference with the waterways and scuppers. On a model depicting ready guns, would probably include them but they would be lashed in place using eyes in the bulwarks for that purpose.

 

 

[mtaylor]

Exactly on the rot and drainage, I spaced it on that.  So they probably put them in the hold?   The tools were many times, hung from the beams when not in use.  

[uss frolick]

I had seen contemporary reference to a strong netting affixed somehow over the top of the shot garlands to keep the shot in place.